THE LORDS DAY CONTROVERSY?

Lon

Well-known member
don’t be sore...we all know when the other side complains about cheating...and when the ref doesnt see any....they will blame the refs
Ungodly pride and self-centered justification for the 'Clefty Show.' Bye Clefty. Sciptures, which I've given (or anybody, doesn't matter who) prove out. They are enough. Read them or ignore them. ▲
 

clefty

New member
So "tough" love is all you know. I can accept that, but you grew up in a weird family.
not enough to try and belittle and insult me but now even drag my family into this?

In Bible College, there were 600 people that generally seemed to agree that love looked a little more like caring, we didn't get into spats nor correct harshly. A few Lord-it-over professors were dismissed. Teaching is a spiritual gift and some who don't have it, shouldn't be doing it....but I digress.
yes yes even the pagans love each other...


Tradition is fine, but it is nothing to base assertions upon.
which until you show where He rid us of the Sabbath you only follow man’s tradition...He instead expected Sabbath to continue Matt 24:20

Peter was familiar with 'all of Paul's writings.' 2 Peter 3:16
Paul was writing to Timothy about OT scripture and was NOT writing about Peter’s NT letters as that canon had not been established yet. Peter wrote after Paul...scholars even consider both these books as even later and not authored by them...

You can beat the hell of kids, or love the hell out of them. The O.T. called for a rod. Find a N.T. correlation? There are very few Covenantalists on the planet, most today are Dispensational and I went to a Dispensational college. One of my professors, however, was Covenantal and I've leaned that way most of my life. However, as a Covenentalist, I was always in fear of Hebrews 6:4 among other verses, that I could 'lose' my salvation, based solely off of Law infraction.
revealing...thanks?


Ephesians, especially, became a life ring for me. I was a 'good' kid, but I still wrestle[d] with those sins that so easily entangle. Hebrews 12 says to throw them off, and I do, but the world is always in our faces. One can hardly walk out the door without appeals to those temptations of the flesh: lust of the eyes, pride of life, arrogant and haughty spirit, etc. Reading through Hebrews one day, "Our forefathers" struck me. I wasn't Jewish. I didn't have those forefathers. There were a number of other references for other Jews and I put Hebrew 6 in context: They were sacrificing for their sins and the warning was against it: "There remains no other sacrifice for sins other than Christ." Clearly I'm not to do as Jews then nor now. There is something even Jews, converting to Christianity weren't supposed to do, REGARDLESS of every Jot and Tiddle not disappearing, they yet, were not supposed to follow it to the "T" any longer. Which was which? Which are we to follow, which are we supposed to learn from but NOT follow, because Christ fulfilled it?
wow...how about no more shedding of blood? Circumcision or sacrifices...oh and stoning for infractions let His be the vengeance

You and I disagree on the scope, but we should not disagree on the precept.
I think the scope is since we are saved please Him...the precept is how to do that...follow Him His way...His faith

So we agree on scope and disagree on the precept...I wish to keep the 10 you claim it was abolished

Matthew 22:40 :think:
right...Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18 completely followed as LOVE it would indeed keep the Law...especially since it was understood to love Yah one kept the Sabbath as true worship and in gratitude for creation and salvation from Egypt...and even give health to rest yourself and your neighbors/employees...


You judge, don't listen. That is your problem and it isn't 'loving.' Not even 'tough loving.' Work on it.
what does that have to do with having itching ears following jewish fables like Jesus changed the customs of Moses? Act 6:13-14


Yeah, when I was a child, I did childish things like punching my brother. When I became a man, I did away with childish things (at least in the sense of where I am on the maturity level).
really? And becoming a man you are no longer mind your brother? Keep him from stumbling? Correct rebuke reproof...

I do. WAY more frequently than you do. You give obscure little links, not a lot of scripture. That you can talk through some of them? Good, but they really should be a large part of this discussion. ONLY God's Word doesn't return void. Your's and mine certainly can and will. It is why I endeavor to use a lot more of Him, and a lot less of me. You might take note....
here’s a link:

http://www.fogwhistle.ca/acts/evidence.html

A study of Acts full of scripture...

To a mind, READY to jump to conclusions and confirmed bias? I bet it does.

Cute

Don't quit your day job. "Counselling, Pastor, Teacher..." these you should re-evaluate along with your attempt at discernment or reading minds. You aren't good at these. Your gift likely dwells in some other place.

And now back to the message...

:nono: Scripture claimed it. I simply posted it.
nope you claim it says abolished the Law when it is the enmity jews had of gentiles found in ordinances they had constructed like that middle wall He tore down to make ONE NEW MAN from the two...


Which makes you 1) ignorant (uninformed intentionally or not) 2)Dumb (incapable of reasoning) or 3) Lying (purposefully misstating truth you know to be otherwise).
I addressed it.
oh my...

Speaking of irony, I've got you outposted with scriptures (really the only thing that matters) about 50 to one.
quality not quantity...think knock out vs blocked jabs...lol



:nono: I recognize scriptures when I see them, it is why I return with them. However, Satan misquoted scriptures. You've demonstrated Eve misquoted them.
yup added to the Word...and you wish to subtract...the Law even...

The problem is 1) others likely will not see them in scripture 2) you are being lazy, and 3) Only His words will accomplish what He desires, thus it is best to give Him credit 4) while we may use His words, there are plagiarism problems with not attributing your source. 5) It keeps people from arguing with you, and grasping the need to discuss these things with their Creator.
ok but even with the Eve thingy you missed why I used scripture...guess I should have cited it Gen 3:3 vs Gen 2:17 see how she added? Dont do that.
.
Which is why your love is 'tough' love. It is very O.T. 1 Corinthians 10:9 Sin is sin, but following the O.T. is recommitting to becoming a Jew 'to earn or keep' standing with God.
The bronze serpent became an idol only after the Spirit left it...when they dismissed the Law of “no image worship”...oh and given to Israel not just jews...

Your whole “Becoming a jew” is a jest at best at worst anti semitic? So following the “don't steal” is also recommitting to becoming a jew? How about “don't lie”...you scared of being jewish?

Paul reminds us it is the Circumcision of the Heart...the spiritual “inner jew” which is regenerated by Him into FOLLOWING HIM HIS WAY

Is marriage also jewish as it is found in the OT around the time of Sabbath institution actually...

It’s your refusal to accept that in the OT it was NEVER “keep the Law in order to be saved” but “you ARE saved keep the law”

Love this way because HE first loved you THIS WAY...

You jumped into a conversation where 3rdAng was using it to 'enjoy a day off.' Because you jumped in the middle, it indeed, did appear that fleshly matters were your concern as well.
right...many things I have posted appear to you...even before you actually read

You just assume and then seek to retort...


Yes, but as with the JV/Varsity discussion, the Lord Jesus Christ raised the bar MUCH higher.
but did not change the rules of the game...as JV and VARSITY actually play the same game

The O.T. was like 'fat camp' with people who could barely get out of bed, metaphorically, to please God. Thus, those were 'low' hurdles (not to get too far from football analogy, where hurdles and tires are also involved). Jesus set the bar much higher in His sermon on the mount. It wasn't that the Law was abolished as much as the bar was set much higher, for instance, where divorce 'was' acceptable, but "God made them one flesh."

Well then say that...He did not abolish “dont commit adultery” with His it begins inwardly first

Nor did he abolish “do not commit adultery” with His it begins inwardly first...


You know the circumcised heart the inner jew the spiritual realm...

So when Pharisees accused Him of breaking their rules for to protect the Sabbath’s inward rest He revealed they were too zealous and Sabbath is a love of the game NOT squabbling over rules not even in the original rulebook authored by the Lord of the Sabbath


And yet you insist at best you keep Sabbath your own way...at worst it was abolished...

AND AGAIN

SABBATH IS NOT TO SAVE BUT BECAUSE WE ARE SAVED...

A reminder we are created by Him and freed BY HIM from the consequences of sin and the enmity of the jews...

we are now citizens of the commonwealth of Israel...HIS PEOPLE is why Heb 4:9...there got it?


That is your fear, talking. I didn't abolish the Law. I quoted a scripture. It is either true, or it is not. There is no banter about that. It is either true or it is not. It is as simple as that.

That marriage is still binding and not abolished...yes that is true...as are the shadows which point to the good things still to come...Col 2:17...

His Law is called eternal and perfect for a reason...

You quoted scripture but then claim otherwise...


At this point, in your hasty assessments, I cannot take the warning without also considering you are given to exaggerations and half, unrefined truths. I'm not going to lose sleep over your apparently 'prophetic' pronouncement. Your britches are a little too big.
not big enough to hold what you carry around...jewish fables about Jesus changing the customs Moses delivered...


Ah, 'despite.' Yeah, when a godly man actually comes my way and says 'Lon, you are not Christlike' I'll worry. You? You don't even balk at doing internet sessions :noway: You are a weirdo.

Ah, it was the 'but' that caught me.


It surely is.
paused for word from our sponsors “Lon’s gratifications”...now we resume the program


It is, you cannot be saved by keeping it. If it worked, there was no need for a Savior.

Duh...you are saved by Him is why you WANT to keep it...

Law worked just fine...pointed out sin and the NEED OF HIM...

You would blame the map cuz you’re lost...or blame the rule book because your team lost...LOL






Cart before the horse. An unbeliever can't. A believer can't help but...

BINGO...an unbeliever can NOT keep the Law as ALL HAVE SINNED...and IN HIM a believer can...

But again its a rule book you still have to play the game...hopefully WANT to...


ok we pause the program of “THE LAW IS SPIRITUAL ROM 7:14” for yet another commercial break from our sponsor “Lon’s gratifications”


it was the low bar of behavior in many instances, like 'divorce.' 1) Jesus raised the bar from 'you have heard, BUT I tell you..." and 2) Spiritual people are being trained, a different way, (by the Spirit) to be Spiritual. You are playing Holy Spirit.
right Law remains...to teach AS ALWAYS of the Spiritual realm...blood of bulls could not remove sin Heb 10:4 that was His job...blood of bulls what a teaching aid about HIM


Anybody, a Muslim, Buddhist, could say they have His Spirit (likely not given their beliefs).

LOL...exactly BINGO...they can claim they are spiritual or even SPIRIT LED but their fruits ARE NOT HIS...


Rather, however, you nor I can 'born again' somebody. You nor I can 'new creation' somebody. Only Christ can. At that point, he/she needs neither you nor I, but in whatever sense we bless them. They do not need awkward teaching that gets in the way of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit IS the embodiment of ALL His teaching. You cannot play Holy Spirit for another person (STOP, I said "HOLY Spirit, don't liken Him to anybody else, but God very God, not Muslims or Buddhists or wherever your disclaimer wants to distractedly traverse).
exactly baptism is a one time symbol only...and must be voluntary...NOT FORCED...is why we dont infant baptize or CIRCUMCISE as that alone DOES NOT SAVE...even Muslims circumcise THEY ARE NOT SAVED...only IN HIM...and then FOLLOWING HIM AS HE LIVED AND LOVED

“and yet Sabbath was sweet sweet grace given even BEFORE the need of rest...before the curse of sin...its sweat inducing WORK...six daze...” you skipped this because?

But yup...SUCH GRACE...His works given for us to do before we were born...

Sometimes more, sometimes less. A holy day is a day God has made. You are once again caught up in fleshly concern over it. It is kept by all who are indwelled with Him.
yes He made it HOLY so until you show me where He made it UNHOLY it is kept by all who are indwelled with Him...as works befitting repentance...six days work seventh day rest...

Not fleshy SPIRITUAL Rom 7:14 kept by inner jews...lol


Then he/she doesn't want to play football, or be a Christian as the metaphor applies. Your Law thumping will never do it for them. There has to be a love for the game or it isn't going to happen.

HalleluYah...and with David sums it up Psalms 119:174 “I long for your salvation (Yahushua) Yah and your law gives me delight” see? Faith first...salvation first...then the law...wanna play? Here is how...

and even Paul Rom 7:22 I delight in the Law of Yah...

but you said the Law was abolished...

so which game is loved for its NOT having rules...just make it up as you go along...2020 years later and the bullies are still running the playground with

So you don't understand the Sermon on the Mount? It is taking you backwards, not forwards. You don't keep running low hurdles once you've graduated. As Paul said, the Law was a trainer. Those trained? They move further in Christ. If that is all you get from me, this is about the only thing worthy of taking note of in this thread, which YOU started hammering away with Sabbath keeping.

I have seen pros do low hurdles to keep in shape...not to become pro of course not...lol

So tell me...once all trained up you quit? Or maybe play by other rules?

You say move further in Christ...but AWAY from His Father’s will? From what He exemplified we do?

I hammered away with Sabbath keeping? LOL...THAT IS THIS THREAD TITLE

I sincerely hope that even in your lovey dovey 600 student college if someone said they loved Jesus but kept stealing every day someone would address it...or if he was committing adultery...to that person I am sure it would feel like “the whole school is hammering away at me” boo hoo




AND exceed it.
so first you go off the ditch into “no more law” and now you oversteer into “exceed the law” LOL

I won't divorce,
you keep bringing it up...hope the Mrs agrees

But yes see the Law remains and was restored...by the Lord of the Sabbath...the One Who gave it...

and won't sacrifice an animal upon an altar. Why? 1) Low bar
right no more need for shedding of blood now that we have His blood for the Wrath to pass over...

2) because in Christ, anyone actually filled with Him WILL NECESSARILY exceed it!
ONLY IF THEY COPY HIM...LOVE AS HE DID...including giving their employees Sabbath days...

They are not going to cry or bow down at every intersection for the stop light.
oh my

It is functional for what we need but Christ is the Object of affections.
DO as HE DID

At the bema seat, it is relational "Depart I never knew you." Their defense was 'didn't we keep? Didn't we do? It wasn't about doing, it was about being known.
WRONG what they listed as doing was not what was expected...He called what they were doing as LAWLESSNESS...NOT His Father’s will...DO THAT



Did the thief on the Cross do any one thing to be with Jesus in Paradise? He had faith.
and he demonstrated his faith by rebuking a mocker, accepting his guilt, requesting forgiveness and to be with Him in His kingdom...that thief did more than a lot of Christians I know to demonstrate his faith

Now tell me something...suppose the thief would have lived...come down off the cross? You really expect me to accept that according to you he would NOT KEEP THE LAW? Go back to stealing? You know cuz Law being abolished...or he be under grace not the Law...

Which day is it? How do I, a gentile, keep it? What am I, according to you, supposed to do?
work six daze rest the seventh...as was His CUSTOM go to the synagogues LOL tell them about Lord of the Sabbath Who did NOT change the customs Moses delivered...walk about with your disciples, heal, read Isaiah et al, pray

whatever you really think would KEEP IT HOLY...you a holy temple now learning holy show times...go sin no more be more LIkE Him...run the race earn the prize...

Well DONE good faithful servant

This also is a problem with not using scriptures. You mixed them out of context in your head.

2 Timothy 4:4 itching ears from their own desires is confirming Dan 7:25 that both times and Law will be changed...

And rather than the Sabbatismos of Heb 4:9 people will claim a JesusRest every day...as if He came to contradict His Fathers Will...


So I need to sacrifice bulls for thank offerings?
now who is fleshy carnal minded offer the sacrifices of your lips...as it was during the time between temples...CERTAINLY DO NOT support Zionists their rebuilding another temple to do so...

How many of them are you observing? Which are you ignorant of?
trying to get better at this game I love...thanks

Or do I only keep the four you mentioned, as a gentile? :think:
LOL you really think the crowding gentiles were allowed to steal lie kill covet worship images another god sunday observance use another name dishonor parents as long as they didnt practice sexual immorality offer food to idols eat meat strangled or full of blood?

Hmmm...well certainly not in the first century...perhaps afterwards as is evident...but James concluded the matter then that they would continue to hear Moses EVERY SABBATH Act 15:21

Be specific, my eternity seems to be on the scale in your judgment.
asked and answered...

What qualifications do you have? Why should I listen to you compared to any other Adam?.
Choose ye this day Whom ye will serve...and how...See Romans 6:16
 
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clefty

New member
Sorry double post.

Here’s to make better use of it?

http://www.fogwhistle.ca/acts/evidence.html

This study challenges the understanding that the early ekklesia did away with the Law.

Here is an example:

Why are the earliest forms of Christian art only found to be of the late 2nd and early 3rd centuries?

If the Law had been done away with surely there would be earlier ikons even actual relics or even a portrait

Our Savior was all about our comfort solace and encouragement...image the power of an ikon rendered of Him...what grace and joy to behold yes?

I mean He could have left a portrait since the Law was done away with no?

And there were Greek/Roman artisans enough to make His face into marble or fresco...




the irony that an earliest archeological fragment is of a plague from the actual literal wall which separated the goyim from jews

that dividing wall He tore down as in Him there is neither Jew or gentile

that emnity found in ordinances which was abolished making from Jew and gentile a new man

https://leonmauldin.blog/2010/04/01/...e-inscription/
 
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clefty

New member
Ungodly pride and self-centered justification for the 'Clefty Show.' Bye Clefty. Sciptures, which I've given (or anybody, doesn't matter who) prove out. They are enough. Read them or ignore them. ▲

awwww come on man...you gonna take your ball and go home now?

don't be so sore...

See? I like to play tennis and when there is no umpire or line judges we usually play disputed points over...cool?

Usually its about shots made...but rules are FUNdemental... as is fair play...

On a beautiful day like today though I won't ask if you wanna go KEEP SOME RULES this afternoon,

but I might ask if you wanna play tennis... I mean, depends how you play...ya dig?

Gotta love da game bro...enough to keep dem rulez... as they say: hate da playa not da game...LOL
 

clefty

New member
Days do not change. "Saturday" changes. Jews merely regarded a succession of 7 days. When the Julian calendar was adopted, those who did not convert didn't agree it was suddenly established, year to year, when they would celebrate any given day. The Julian calendar was arbitrary.

Cut to the chase: Do you believe that one must celebrate 'every Saturday' to keep a Sabbath? If not, the conversation doesn't matter. One of us just gets this math question wrong.

So, what is the basis of your argument today: What does it accomplish for Christ? Such is a lot better than arguing over trivialities. It is normally the Saturday worshipper that troubles the rest of the body with such concerns. Where is your position? Thanks.

oh my...Pharisees always attacking the minority view...even called Him a troublemaker too for affirming His Sabbath...

and you elsewhere:
"I'm convinced you will get this. A Saturday worshipper?


:nono:
That person is bull-headed and cannot be bothered with basic math (sadly)





:("

LOL..you really do sound sore...

It’s understandable but shake it off...leave it on the field

oh BTW don't forget the Celts had their own calendar too...but we'll address that later in Galatians...
 
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clefty

New member
Sorry for the large chunk, some people do not read their bibles so don't know (it is important):
Lon

yup...still comes across as sore...or inquistorial

I wonder if anyone here at TOL really doesn't read their bibles or doesn't agree that it is important.

Are we to pretend to be surprised at this sizable chunk of Galatians posted with highlights as not having seen it before?

Are you some great prophet pope or oracle to bring down the word from the cloud? Ha

I do hope you really don’t think this and are just lashing out at the opposing opinion.

Just because one doesn’t agree with you does not mean they have never read the Bible or don’t think it important.

You sound like a kid who suddenly hates the game or claims the other kids don’t know anything...for some reason...





Before we begin... please humor me with some things about this letter.

First-that this letter to the Galatians was written prior the Jerusalem council in Acts 15 some think it might have verified the need for a council at all. It was certainly written well before Paul's trials.

Now might I ask if Paul had written that the Law was 1) done away with or 2) changed at the cross or 3) not for gentiles...could he have argued:

Acts 24:12-16 My accusers did not find me arguing with anyone at the temple, or stirring up a crowd in the synagogues or anywhere else in the city. And they cannot prove to you the charges they are now making against me. However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.

Not only once but at all his trials Paul claimed innocence.

Would the opposing side which claimed he was a troublemaker worthy of death NOT have this letter he wrote as EXHIBIT A?

Paul however was spared as no charges were proven and he was turned over and over to a higher court maintaining his innocence until the end of the book of Acts under house arrest.

How could that be if this letter to the Galatians so clearly states the Law was destroyed?


Second item:

The letter was written to the Galatians an ancient conquering tribal people from Gaul also known as Celtics.

They had their own language not just spoken but written with their letters...
They had their own coinage
They had their own laws
They had their own religion with priests
They had their own CALENDAR

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts

This last issue will be important to remember as we dive into this letter.

Please also understand that as an ancient polytheistic people they "collected" many gods and goddesses throughout their history with subsequent ritualist pagan rites and traditions with a priestly class as well.

The relationship between these tribesmen to their gods and goddesses was a relationship of bribery and favor. Sacrifices were done in order to appease and please and "purchase" favor health good will and of course ward of evil. Nature was severe and ancestors important.

To quickly sum up we are dealing with a very sophisticated and cosmopolitan and civilized people here.

Let's keep that in mind as we explore this letter Paul wrote to them...which caused such a stirring...even today
 
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Lon

Well-known member
Seen it before? Didn't correct you? How about Romans?
Spoiler
Rom 2:1 Therefore you are without excuse, O man, everyone who judges; for in that in which you judge another, you condemn yourself, for you who judge do the same things.
:think:
Rom 2:3 And, O man, the one judging those who do such things, and practice them, do you think this, that you shall escape the judgment of God?

Rom 2:12 For as many as sinned without Law will also perish without Law. And as many as have sinned within Law shall be judged through Law.

Rom 2:17 Behold, you are called a Jew, and rest in the Law, and boast in God;
Rom 2:18 and know His will and approve the things excelling, being instructed out of the Law;
Rom 2:19 and persuading yourselves to be a guide of the blind, a light to those in darkness;
Rom 2:20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, who have the form of knowledge and of the truth in the Law.

Rom 2:23 You who boast in Law, do you dishonor God through breaking the Law?
Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the nations because of you, as it is written.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that outwardly in flesh;
Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart; in spirit and not in letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God.

Rom 3:20 because by the works of the Law none of all flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:21 But now a righteousness of God has been revealed apart from Law, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets;
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through the faith of Jesus Christ, toward all and upon all those who believe. For there is no difference,
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25 whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness through the passing by of the sins that had taken place before, in the forbearance of God;

Rom 3:27 Then where is the boasting? It is excluded. Through what law? Of works? No, but through the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the works of the Law.

Rom 5:8 But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be destroyed, that from now on we should not serve sin.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under Law, but under grace.

Rom 6:22 But now, being made free from sin, and having become slaves to God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be destroyed, that from now on we should not serve sin.
Rom 7:1 Or are you ignorant, brothers; for I speak to those who know the Law; that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?

Rom 7:6 But now we having been set free from the Law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Rom 7:15 For that which I do, I know not. For what I desire, that I do not do; but what I hate, that I do.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I do not desire, I consent to the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 But now it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing. For to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I do not find.
Rom 7:19 For I do not do the good that I desire; but the evil which I do not will, that I do.
Rom 7:20 But if I do what I do not desire, it is no more I working it out, but sin dwelling in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law: when I will to do the right, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man;
Rom 7:23 but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin being in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 But the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh;
Rom 8:4 so that the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Rom 8:7 because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be.
Rom 8:8 So then they who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ is in you, indeed the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of the One who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One who raised up Christ from the dead shall also make your mortal bodies alive by His Spirit who dwells in you.

Rom 8:15 For you have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption by which we cry, Abba, Father!
Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God.
Rom 8:17 And if we are children, then we are heirs; heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ; so that if we suffer with Him, we may also be glorified together.

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God who justifies.
Rom 8:34 Who is he condemning? It is Christ who has died, but rather also who is raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the nations, who did not follow after righteousness have taken on righteousness, but a righteousness of faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, who followed after a law of righteousness did not arrive at a law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Why? Because it was not of faith, but as it were by the works of the Law. For they stumbled at that Stumbling-stone;
Rom 9:33 as it is written, "Behold, I lay in Zion a Stumbling-stone and a Rock-of-offense, and everyone believing on Him shall not be put to shame."

Rom 10:2 For I bear record to them that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they, being ignorant of God's righteousness and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for everyone who believes.

Rom 10:9 Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone believing on Him shall not be put to shame."

Rom 10:13 For everyone, "whoever shall call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Highlighted verses? You already don't listen. Not listening to God will continue to be between you and He. You've a problem. The scriptures speak against your assertions.

More? The good news is nobody who is the Lord's is going to listen to Clefty. They are going to listen to scriptures and they are clear.

and 5 posts? All expressing some feigned hurt? Scriptures, despite your protest, are going to have to be good enough. You love to hear your own voice arguing too much. It needs not be indulged. READ the scriptures and know them. None bolded here. They are clear enough.

I really cannot be bothered with your banter and poor assertions/assessment. You don't have that gift either. One would wonder what your gift from God actually is. You don't love well, Make these kinds of waves with others (I've looked), so no, it isn't me. It's you. All you.
 

KerimF

New member
By the way, whoever saw his truth in Jesus message (by reading Jesus sayings directly on the Gospel), he doesn't see the need to observe anymore the movements of the sun and the moon in his spiritual life.
To him in the least, his God is Spirit and it happens that he perceives also, in his being, a living soul (besides his living flesh) which is born of the Spirit.
He also knows that God's Spirit and his living soul are not limited by time or place. So, naturally, he is, in spirit, with the Father in Heaven and Jesus all the time and everywhere while being guided by their unifying Spirit of Love, the Holy Spirit.

But, this doesn't prevent him to respect/observe, as possible, the holy days of the people he lives among or he may visit them.

Now, you know why it is very important to find out, also as possible, the day(s) that each group of believers in the world observes as being God's Holy Day(s).

This thread is, indeed, very interesting in this respect.
 

clefty

New member
By the way, whoever saw his truth in Jesus message (by reading Jesus sayings directly on the Gospel),
and when He says do His Father’s Will you miss that His Father willed they keep His Law which includes the seventh day rest after six daze of work? Or that when He says follow me which would mean to include not only to carry a cross if need be to your death but also follow Him into a house of worship on those Sabbath days...?

Or when He says “love AS I loved you”... now you would readily understand that His love would not include stealing or murder or lying or coveting or adultery or dishonoring parents right? Please realize that most other gods naturally have this same sense of fair play in their “love”...

BUT there remains in His Love further qualifiers which sets it apart from the other loves...namely no blaspheming His Name or making/worshipping an image or another god as there is NO other god yes? Notice any thing else that might be included in His love? Oh yes, the seventh day Sabbath was also in His love as He restored to IT healing and serving others...do we include this day in our love of others?...even our employees? A whole day off? And to rest ALL day? NO OTHER god provides this gift of grace to his followers...

Funny how it used to be so popular the saying WWJD? What Would Jesus Do?...certainly go into a house of worship and read scriptures on the Sabbath as was His custom...

he doesn't see the need to observe anymore the movements of the sun and the moon in his spiritual life.
To him in the least, his God is Spirit and it happens that he perceives also, in his being, a living soul (besides his living flesh) which is born of the Spirit.
He also knows that God's Spirit and his living soul are not limited by time or place. So, naturally, he is, in spirit, with the Father in Heaven and Jesus all the time and everywhere while being guided by their unifying Spirit of Love, the Holy Spirit.
some of us however realize with immense joy and gravity that this Eternal Immortal All Sovereignty actually LIMITED HIMSELF to us for us...created for us a world in 6 days and then rested the 7th...He constricted minimized and contained Himself even into a cadence for us to understand and come be with the I AM on a day He made holy...His Holy Sabbath

this joining of Immortal Spirit to Mortal Flesh has been celebrated according to HIS INSTRUCTIONS ever since...even in the desert when and where again He dwelt with us in time and space...and later when the Word became Flesh...and again to show us the Way back to Him...to restore us back to His Ways...is why He asks we follow Him His way...

But, this doesn't prevent him to respect/observe, as possible, the holy days of the people he lives among or he may visit them.
indeed...and thereby makes them a. unique and a peculiar people set aside Holy and separate from the world...His choice to become known and specific to be reduced to material flesh and to even being killed is the Love and Grace not even pagan gods can claim

Now, you know why it is very important to find out, also as possible, the day(s) that each group of believers in the world observes as being God's Holy Day(s).

This thread is, indeed, very interesting in this respect.
yes there are many claimed gods to worship...and many ways to worship in man’s traditions...however He and His remain unique and singular in both space and TIME

HalleluYah...
 
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clefty

New member
Seen it before? Didn't correct you? How about Romans?
Wut? Wait? You don’t wanna do Galatians anymore but skip back to Romans?
Spoiler
Rom 2:1 Therefore you are without excuse, O man, everyone who judges; for in that in which you judge another, you condemn yourself, for you who judge do the same things.
:think:
Rom 2:3 And, O man, the one judging those who do such things, and practice them, do you think this, that you shall escape the judgment of God?

Rom 2:12 For as many as sinned without Law will also perish without Law. And as many as have sinned within Law shall be judged through Law.

Rom 2:17 Behold, you are called a Jew, and rest in the Law, and boast in God;
Rom 2:18 and know His will and approve the things excelling, being instructed out of the Law;
Rom 2:19 and persuading yourselves to be a guide of the blind, a light to those in darkness;
Rom 2:20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, who have the form of knowledge and of the truth in the Law.

Rom 2:23 You who boast in Law, do you dishonor God through breaking the Law?
Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the nations because of you, as it is written.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that outwardly in flesh;
Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart; in spirit and not in letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God.

Rom 3:20 because by the works of the Law none of all flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:21 But now a righteousness of God has been revealed apart from Law, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets;
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through the faith of Jesus Christ, toward all and upon all those who believe. For there is no difference,
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25 whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness through the passing by of the sins that had taken place before, in the forbearance of God;

Rom 3:27 Then where is the boasting? It is excluded. Through what law? Of works? No, but through the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the works of the Law.

Rom 5:8 But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be destroyed, that from now on we should not serve sin.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under Law, but under grace.

Rom 6:22 But now, being made free from sin, and having become slaves to God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be destroyed, that from now on we should not serve sin.
Rom 7:1 Or are you ignorant, brothers; for I speak to those who know the Law; that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?

Rom 7:6 But now we having been set free from the Law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Rom 7:15 For that which I do, I know not. For what I desire, that I do not do; but what I hate, that I do.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I do not desire, I consent to the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 But now it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing. For to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I do not find.
Rom 7:19 For I do not do the good that I desire; but the evil which I do not will, that I do.
Rom 7:20 But if I do what I do not desire, it is no more I working it out, but sin dwelling in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law: when I will to do the right, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man;
Rom 7:23 but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin being in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 But the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh;
Rom 8:4 so that the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Rom 8:7 because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be.
Rom 8:8 So then they who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ is in you, indeed the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of the One who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One who raised up Christ from the dead shall also make your mortal bodies alive by His Spirit who dwells in you.

Rom 8:15 For you have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption by which we cry, Abba, Father!
Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God.
Rom 8:17 And if we are children, then we are heirs; heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ; so that if we suffer with Him, we may also be glorified together.

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God who justifies.
Rom 8:34 Who is he condemning? It is Christ who has died, but rather also who is raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the nations, who did not follow after righteousness have taken on righteousness, but a righteousness of faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, who followed after a law of righteousness did not arrive at a law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Why? Because it was not of faith, but as it were by the works of the Law. For they stumbled at that Stumbling-stone;
Rom 9:33 as it is written, "Behold, I lay in Zion a Stumbling-stone and a Rock-of-offense, and everyone believing on Him shall not be put to shame."

Rom 10:2 For I bear record to them that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they, being ignorant of God's righteousness and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for everyone who believes.

Rom 10:9 Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone believing on Him shall not be put to shame."

Rom 10:13 For everyone, "whoever shall call on the name of the Lord will be saved."


Phew that was a lot...I noted you missed 7:14 “For we know that the law is spiritual...” we know that? Right? I mean Paul the Romans and I do...but thanks for acknowledging a law remains...for awhile there I thought you claimed it was destroyed.

But yet you maintain this letter to the Romans proves the Law was destroyed(?) done away with or changed.

Well then why was it along with Galatians NOT submitted into the trials of Paul? It was written well before then. The opposition would have clear evidence to submit and not just:

Acts 24:5-6 We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect and even tried to desecrate the temple; so we seized him.

THAT’S YOU! LON...that is YOUR view...Paul is a trouble maker BECAUSE he freed us from the LAW yiiiiippppppeeeeee...we are freeeeee!!!!!

Now imagine this accusation with copies of both Galatians and Romans sitting before the court...your copies of course all highlighted and stuff...LOL

Paul maintained

Acts 24:12-16 My accusers did not find me arguing with anyone at the temple, or stirring up a crowd in the synagogues or anywhere else in the city. ( could you imagine the row it would stir if INDEED Paul was teaching the Law changed destroyed no longer applied) And they cannot prove to you the charges they are now making against me.(errr...how about them letters on the table there to Galatians and Romans?) However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, (but but but the cross changed everything...new...there is NEW!!!)and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.

Hmmmmm...even the OT promise to the Gentiles? Oh wait EXACTLY THAT...lol

Please recall that even the Pharisees saw NOTHING WRONG with Paul:

Acts 23:9 There was a great uproar, and some of the teachers of the law who were Pharisees stood up and argued vigorously. "We find nothing wrong with this man," they said. "What if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him?"

How about these letters you claim prove the Law was changed Lon? Didn’t the pharisees KNOW Paul did away with the Law? Pharisees would agree Sabbath was done away with...let’s go eat cat bat and wombat? LOL

Paul knew exactly why he was on trial and not for what you would suppose:

Acts 23:6 Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and the others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, "My brothers, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee. I stand on trial because of my hope in the resurrection of the dead."

Acts 26:20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

Ahhh yes...that we all turn to Yah even to works...doing good...in Him towards righteousness...doing His works befitting repentance away from the world and their former selves and to Him HIS WAY...seven days a week...

Highlighted verses? You already don't listen. Not listening to God will continue to be between you and He. You've a problem. The scriptures speak against your assertions.
Paul says clearly 7:25 “I thank Yah through Yahushua our Lord! So then with my mind I myself serve the Law of Yah” and verse 25 “For I delight in the Law of Yah according to the inward man.” Makes sense as the Law is spiritual right? Not just on stones but written in our hearts and minds. Please notice how Paul writes it is the Law of Yah and not His Son’s or a new commandment or something changed...certainly not destroyed or something...

Yup the Law of Yah is spiritual not just in stone...as FLESH PROFITS NOTHING...like circumcision...is why Paul was also clear that “ if an uncircumcised man KEEPS the righteous requirements of the law will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision?” Romans 2:26 (since you skipped it in your spoiler above)

so obviously Yah’s Law is the righteous requirement which sets the standard for those who are either cut or uncut to strive for...certainly not in order to be cut or saved...faith is first...then the cutting (or not)...ironically it is the PARENTS faith to cut the male child...

is WHY circumcision NEVER saved as it was done TO you and not By you...but that’s more for Galatians...is why we don’t do infant baptisms...

More? The good news is nobody who is the Lord's is going to listen to Clefty. They are going to listen to scriptures and they are clear.
“Here are they that keep the commandments of Yah and have the faith OF Yahushua” Rev 14:12

and 5 posts? All expressing some feigned hurt?
awww come on man...not just that...

Did you see with your own eyeballs that very thing which was abolished —->that enmity for gentiles by the jews?

It’s displayed here from that wall which He tore down between Jew and gentile making ONE new man...

temple-inscription-herodian.jpg




https://leonmauldin.blog/2010/04/01/...e-inscription/

Yup there it is that enmity that was abolished in commandments found in ordinances.

Were you able to read that ordnance coming at you?

If not, it might have gotten you killed.

Luckily you had years of Greek right?


didn Scriptures, despite your protest, are going to have to be good enough. You love to hear your own voice arguing too much. It needs not be indulged. READ the scriptures and know them. None bolded here. They are clear enough.
except the ones you skipped...LOL

I really cannot be bothered with your banter and poor assertions/assessment. You don't have that gift either. One would wonder what your gift from God actually is. You don't love well, Make these kinds of waves with others (I've looked), so no, it isn't me. It's you. All you.
1 John 2:4 Whoever says I know him but DOES NOT KEEP the commandments is a liar.”

We are to love AS He loved us...John 15:12 “This is my command that you love one another as I have loved you.”

The inner jew with circumcised heart knows the Law is spiritual and of course Loving His Way fulfills the Law...every citizen of the commonwealth of Israel knows that...or should...lol
 
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KerimF

New member
some of us however realize with immense joy and gravity that this Eternal Immortal All Sovereignty actually LIMITED HIMSELF to us for us...created for us a world in 6 days and then rested the 7th...He constricted minimized and contained Himself even into a cadence for us to understand and come be with the I AM on a day He made holy...His Holy Sabbath

Thank you for being clear.
By the way, I also say to my Muslim friends that, in my spiritual life, I don't follow the sun and the moon as they are supposed to do.
And I am glad that Jesus, unlike anyone else, agrees with me on this :)
 

clefty

New member
Thank you for being clear.
perhaps not clear enough....?

By the way, I also say to my Muslim friends that, in my spiritual life, I don't follow the sun and the moon as they are supposed to do.
And I am glad that Jesus, unlike anyone else, agrees with me on this :)

He does does He?

Could you please explain for me then what "take My burden it is light and My yoke is easy" means to you and maybe follow up with "if you love Me follow Me...keep My commandments...Love as I loved you"...

Thanks.
 

KerimF

New member
perhaps not clear enough....?

Sorry, sometimes I forgot that in English... 'Thank you' may sound its inverse if followed by a reason :(

He does does He?
Could you please explain for me then what "take My burden it is light and My yoke is easy" means to you and maybe follow up with "if you love Me follow Me...keep My commandments...Love as I loved you"...
Thanks.

"take My burden it is light and My yoke is easy" is obvious. With Jesus, there are no rules to learn and follow because it is all about love/trust and nothing else :)

I read "if you love Me follow Me...keep My commandments...Love as I loved you"... "if you 'trust' Me follow Me...keep My advices...Love anyone, you may meet, as I loved you".

I like adding that I didn't meet yet even one mature person who thinks that his belief(s) could be wrong.
I mean; I just try presenting, when asked, what I have in mind while understanding others the way they are.
 

Lon

Well-known member
Hebrews

Heb 12:6 for whom the Lord loves He chastens, and He scourges every son whom He receives."
Heb 12:7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons, for what son is he whom the father does not chasten?
Heb 12:8 But if you are without chastisement, of which all are partakers, then you are bastards and not sons.

If His, buckle up.

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is of necessity a change made in the law also.

Heb 7:16 who is made, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life.

Heb 7:18 For truly there is a putting away of the commandment which went before, because of the weakness and unprofitableness of it.

Heb 7:19 For the Law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did, by which we draw near to God.

Heb 7:22 by so much was Jesus made a surety of a better covenant.

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by so much He is also the Mediator of a better covenant, which was built upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been without fault, then no place would have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, He said to them, "Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, and I will make an end on the house of Israel and on the house of Judah; a new covenant shall be,
Heb 8:9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day I took hold of their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt," because they did not continue in My covenant, and I did not regard them, says the Lord.
Heb 8:10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My Laws into their mind and write them in their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Heb 8:11 And they shall not each man teach his neighbor, and each man his brother, saying, Know the Lord, for all shall know Me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities I will remember no more."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, A new covenant, He has made the first one old. Now that which decays and becomes old is ready to vanish away.
 

Lon

Well-known member
Gal 1:6 I marvel that you so soon are being moved away from Him who called you into the grace of Christ, to another gospel, {actual gospel} no?
Spoiler
Gal 1:7 which is not another, but some are troubling you, and desiring to pervert the gospel of Christ.

Gal 2:4 But because of those false brothers stealing in, who stole in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus; they desiring to enslave us;
{jealousy? THAT was the reason for imposing rules?}

Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they did not walk uprightly with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before all, If you, being a Jew, live as a Gentile, and not as the Jews, why do you compel the nations to judaize? {"nations" is another name for gentiles, in the Apostles vocabulary)
Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by works of the Law, but through faith in Jesus Christ; even we believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith in Christ, and not by works of the Law. For all flesh will not be justified by works of law. [How is that? NOT Justified by works? How is that possible if we are held accountable to the Law? Answer? We aren't. It has to necessarily be this clear or the whole argument Paul is making falls apart)
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified in Christ, we also were found to be sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Let it not be said!
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I confirm myself as a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For through the Law I died to the law, that I might live to God. (see? Following the LAW is not the aim, rather NOT TAKING OUR EYES OFF OF the LORD Jesus Christ is the aim)
Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ, and I live; yet no longer I, but Christ lives in me. And that life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith toward the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself on my behalf. The SON is the focus of new life. If not? BAD! Not keeping your eyes upon the Lord Jesus Christ is BAD for Christ-likeness.
Gal 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness is through law, then Christ died without cause.
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who bewitched you not to obey the truth, to whom before your eyes Jesus Christ was written among you crucified?
Gal 3:2 This only I would learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing of faith? (Hearing and faith, The Law, forced me to my need for the Savior).
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, do you now perfect yourself in the flesh?
Gal 3:5 Then He supplying the Spirit to you and working powerful works in you, is it by works of the law, or by hearing of faith? (So, if one is worried about another's walk, he/she is missing that it isn't possible for one in Christ, NOT to walk after Christ. It cannot happen. Period.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are 'out of works of the Law,' these are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the Book of the Law, to do them." (and this person has taken their eyes off of Jesus to do so Hebrews is written to Jews, or Jew-wanna-be's to put their eyes back on Jesus.
Gal 3:11 But that no one is justified by the Law in the sight of God is clear, for, "The just shall live by faith." (therefore there is NO other way to be justified).
Gal 3:12 But the Law is not of faith; but, "The man who does these things shall live in them." (Law = not of faith, clear)

Gal 3:19 Why then the Law? It was added because of transgressions, until the Seed should come to those to whom it had been promised, being ordained through angels in the Mediator's hand. (clearly "until," it means clearly, a pull-date. Why? Because it is good, but not as perfect as Jesus, thus takes eyes off of the the one and makes a Jew out of anyone caught in law obedience, missing the Savior for the trees (do's and dont's that all believers innately have upon recreation.

Gal 4:1 But I say, Over so long a time the heir is an infant, he does not differ from a slave, though being lord of all;
Gal 4:2 but he is under guardians and housemasters until the term appointed before by the father.
Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were infants, were in bondage under the elements of the world.
Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, coming into being out of a woman, having come under Law,
Gal 4:5 that He might redeem those under Law, so that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7 So that you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, also an heir of God through Christ. Slaves to what? By Paul's analogy, to the Law. It was necessary 'until' Christ, just as it says above. It clearly has an expiration date as to which a newly created being is supposed to be living by: Christ.

Gal 4:8 But then, indeed, not knowing God, you served as slaves to those not by nature being gods.
Gal 4:9 But now, knowing God, but rather are known by God, how do you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements to which you again desire to slave anew? (sin, law)
Gal 4:10 You observe days and months and times and years.
Gal 4:11 I fear for you, lest somehow I have labored among you in vain.



Gal 4:24 which things are being allegorized; for these are the two covenants, one indeed from Mount Sinai bringing forth to slavery, which is Hagar.
Gal 4:25 For Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in slavery with her children.
Gal 4:26 But the Jerusalem from above is free, who is the mother of us all. me.
Gal 4:16 So then did I become your enemy speaking to you the truth?
Gal 4:17 They are zealous for you, but not well. But they only desire to shut you out, that you be zealous to them. (so the one living by the law, is living by the Old Covenant and getting their eyes taken from the Savior, regardless of 'nuh uh!''s )

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty with which Christ has made us free, and do not again be held with the yoke of bondage. (clear, and incidentally, given as a commandment)
Gal 5:2 Behold, I, Paul, say to you that if you are circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do all the Law, (all of it, every part, why is this bad? Because none but Christ could or can and because it takes the eyes off the Savior.
Gal 5:4 you who are justified by Law are deprived of all effect from Christ; you fell from grace. (that is harsh, but I didn't say it. Paul did, and he meant it. There is no escaping his accusation if you preach, teach, and try to be 'right' by keeping the Law)
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness out of faith. (Righteousness out of our obedience? Or our Faith? How so? It is simply trust, that Christ will continue making and molding us into His image. If you are worried about people who don't desire godliness, you talking about people who do not have the Savior as their first interest. There is no such thing as fire-insurance and no prayer, but to know the Savior, is effectual.
Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any strength, but faith working through love. (working the Law into us? :nono: Working to make us obedient to the O.T. :nono: Working through us to Love our Savior and love like Him? Yup.
Gal 5:7 You were running well. Who hindered you that you do not obey the truth? (Laws? That truth? :nono: He started out this book with obeying the truth of Christ. It takes a Law focused person to read something else into that because it is exactly this clear.
Gal 5:8 This persuasion is not from Him who calls you. (Where is the persuasion to follow the Law from then?) :think:
Gal 5:9 A little leaven leavens all the lump. (everyone that is young in the faith can easily be yoked with such leavening and persuasion, but it "is not from Him who calls you."

Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. (why not? Its perfect, isn't it? Psalm 19 says so. The answer - Because it is good, but obsolete. It accomplished, perfectly, all it was designed to accomplish but those who cling on and hate change miss Christ for the forest of Judaism.

Gal 5:24 But those belonging to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. (Because that IS the new nature - to be with and be like their Savior)
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. (and not the Law? :think: )
Gal 5:26 Let us not become glory-seeking, provoking one another, envying one another. (Like when we get into 'better than you" debate)

Gal 6:3 For if anyone thinks himself to be something, being nothing, he deceives himself.
Gal 6:4 But let each one prove his own work, and then he alone will have a boast in himself, and not in another.
Gal 6:5 For each one will bear his own load.

Gal 6:12 As many as desire to look well in the flesh, these compel you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
Gal 6:13 For they themselves, having been circumcised, do not even keep the Law, but they desire you to be circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh.
Gal 6:14 But may it never be for me to boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified to me, and I to the world.
Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision has any strength, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them and upon the Israel of God.




Scripture is enough. Plenty enough. -Lon

Galatians 5:15But if you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out, or you will be consumed by each other. 16So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

Enough cents/sense to pay attention? It'd be nice.
 

clefty

New member
Sorry, sometimes I forgot that in English... 'Thank you' may sound its inverse if followed by a reason :(

No your thanks are clear enough I was not clear on remembering the Sabbath as you continued that you think that Jesus does not have a Holy Day...seperate from the rest



"take My burden it is light and My yoke is easy" is obvious. With Jesus, there are no rules to learn and follow because it is all about love/trust and nothing else :)
hmmmm you mean like a puppy learns to love/trust? How about a baby learns to love/trust his mother...later does he love/trust his wife the same way? And then when married love/trust yet another woman...or since NO RULES how about love/trust another man while in a love/trust with your wife...

I hear all the time among christian gays that the old law is done away with so they can love/trust the same sex...soon love/trust animals the same way?

Sorry this love/trust gets really vague and general with all the various relationships available out there...do we love/trust children like priests often do? I mean lots of kids are being love/trusted today and don’t seem to happy about it...so...again please specify for me? Thanks...



I read "if you love Me follow Me...keep My commandments...Love as I loved you"... "if you 'trust' Me follow Me...keep My advices...Love anyone, you may meet, as I loved you".
oh ok...so it is trust and advice...ok that is a bit more specific...and reasonable...but again trust and advice comes even professionally like with doctor or teacher or used car salesman...you can actually pay for it...the more money the better...odd that...

As for the Jesus I know He has taught and modeled a lifestyle to follow but you have read something else...a different Jesus...a no rules love...

Maybe 1 John can help explain my Jesus:

1:3-7 that we might walk in light 8 if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves even make Him a liar verse 10

2:3-6 we know we know Him if we keep His commandments if you dont you are a LIAR...if you claim to live in Him you must live as He did...NIV (translations are interesting to compare)

15 do NOT love the world or things in the world...good measure of real love and the love of the Father is not in one that does love the world etc...
29 practice righteousness reveals you are born of Him...course what is righteous right? Hint: His Works...

3rd chapter deals with do not sin and abiding in Him we don’t...so what is sin? Again good qualifiers to indicate what is NOT LOVE...love not in word or tongue but DEED and TRUTH...wow...what’s that? This chapter ends with 3 verses on keeping the commandments to please Him to believe in the Name of His Son...as He gave us commandment and finally he who keeps the commandments abides IN HIM...and He in him...and the Spirit too...showing us the Way we should go...you’ll read that elsewhere...

4rth is also good as it speaks on why we love...He loved us first but we cant say we love Yah and hate another...

5th sums it up by this we know we love...when we love Yah and keep His commandments and they are NOT burdensome...

I have met many many who claim “I LOVE GOD” but oh man are His commandments burdensome...they try SO HARD to avoid them saying things like they have been destroyed or changed or NOT FOR ME...LOL...

I pray for them but for the ones not sinning the sin that leads to death...some are sinning the sin leading to death no need to pray for those...all unrighteousness is sin but there is sin NOT leading to death...is WHY we have to learn how to love AS HE DID...He knew not all would reciprocate...sometimes we love too much...

John ends with admonishing to keep ourselves from sin...we can have understanding...and finishes with “keep from idols”

Now that is good advice as idols are false images of Love...kinda like imagining a Love with no rules...


I like adding that I didn't meet yet even one mature person who thinks that his belief(s) could be wrong.
oh I think that...is WHY I ask and share and learn to trust and get advice...but being wrong and admitting it builds trust in oneself too...a real growth can occur in correction

I mean; I just try presenting, when asked, what I have in mind while understanding others the way they are.
fair enough...but still curious if you could re present your love/trust thingy with examples even.

Would help me trust your advices right?
 

Lon

Well-known member
Acts 24:5-6 We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect and even tried to desecrate the temple; so we seized him.

THAT’S YOU! LON...that is YOUR view...Paul is a trouble maker BECAUSE he freed us from the LAW yiiiiippppppeeeeee...we are freeeeee!!!!!
Sloppy. Yes to the first part. The second is rather what you hope/fear I am. :nono: You simply don't listen and work up strawmen to knock down. Your other threads show you are enamored with being a Jew, at least grafted in. Such will prevent you from grasping and understanding the contexts of Romans, Galatians, Ephesians and in a couple of points, Hebrews as well.

There are and were two ways to deal with sin: 1) avoid it (not a bad plan at all) and 2) confess, for forgiveness and present something to make it right.

After the Cross 1) Avoid it (still a good plan but you now have ALL of those laws written on your heart, guess which one doesn't feel spiritually compelling in the same exact manner that you want to observe it?) 2) Present yourself, your bodies to Him. Some advocate a need to ask forgiveness, and others, in faith, bank on the mercies and work of Christ in dealing with sin.

Now imagine this accusation with copies of both Galatians and Romans sitting before the court...your copies of course all highlighted and stuff...LOL
Given to exaggeration. Why? Because you like lifting up strawmen and knocking them down. It is the mark of someone who 'wants to teach so badly.' Don't look to me, look to Christ. Banter as you offer is of no value whatsoever. It is why I've been only presenting scriptures. You simply do not need to be indulged.

Paul maintained

Acts 24:12-16 My accusers did not find me arguing with anyone at the temple, or stirring up a crowd in the synagogues or anywhere else in the city. ( could you imagine the row it would stir if INDEED Paul was teaching the Law changed destroyed no longer applied) And they cannot prove to you the charges they are now making against me.(errr...how about them letters on the table there to Galatians and Romans?) However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, (but but but the cross changed everything...new...there is NEW!!!)and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.
Context? Jews. You are so enamored, your eyes are blinded to two covenants. Count them, at LEAST two covenants. You are stuck in the one called "Law."


Hmmmmm...even the OT promise to the Gentiles? Oh wait EXACTLY THAT...lol

Please recall that even the Pharisees saw NOTHING WRONG with Paul:
They did, had him beheaded eventually. Because he broke a law? :nono: Even they weren't keeping it. Paul said so. Jesus said so. What happens is (like here) someone uses the Law to lord it over another. It is great for people who want to be gurus (instead of Christ being the Only between God and man).

That's enough. Your fragile feelings are hurt when someone clips you, but you are too long winded with nothing really substantial. Get used to it.
 

clefty

New member
oh boy...yet another book? Slow down coach I have seen these plays before but still catching up to your version of them...although your style is quite similar to others I have seen:

Let me guess:

Heb 7:12 right? So before we continue might I offer:

G3346 – μετατίθημι – metatithemi – transfer
Act 7:16 And were carried over(G3346) into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem.
Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed(G3346) from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed(G3346), there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated(G3346) that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated(G3346) him: for before his translation(G3331) he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning(G3346) the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

G3331 – μετάθεσις – metathesis – transference
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change(G3331) also of the law.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated(G3346) that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated(G3346) him: for before his translation(G3331) he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Heb 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing(G3331) of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.


If His, buckle up.
oh I am buckled...got my helmet on too cuz you gonna flip this thing...

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed,
THERE IT IS!...Ha...See? I knew you would get here coach...let’s see what you do with this...

there is of necessity a change made in the law also.
so as we learned above since it went to a new management of course they had to move it...you know new administration...but I bet you like to add that NO MORE SABBATH is included in that right oh and EAT CAT BATS AND WOMBATS too...right?

Heb 7:16 who is made, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life.
speaking of the High Priest again administering the IMMUTABLE LAW...PERFECT I think David called it...

Heb 7:18 For truly there is a putting away of the commandment which went before, because of the weakness and unprofitableness of it.
Paul addressed this earlier but you skipped through to fast...Romans 3:20 by deeds of the law no flesh will be justified...for by the Law is the knowledge of sin...7:7 not known sin without Law

So is the ladder to the cockpit weak and unprofitable because it doesnt make you fly? Oh wait...is the plane weak and unprofitable because it doesnt make you fly...needs a pilot...oh wait is the instrumentation panel with coordinates weak and unprofitable cuz it doesnt get you there or does it need a pilot his plane and a ladder to get into the plane...Paul was clear but we skipped it Romans 7:12 Therefore the law is holy and the commandment holy and just and good...14 for we know the law is spiritual...22 For I delight in the Law of Yah...25 I thank Yah through Yahushua our Lord so then with the mind I myself serve the law of Yah...NOT HIS SON’S...but all that was to the Romans...maybe the Hebrews disagreed? LOL



Heb 7:19 For the Law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did, by which we draw near to God.
oh good...the Hebrews must have understood all that waiting for a Messiah all those centuries no? Were they expecting Him to free them from the Sabbath to be able to eat cat bats and wombats maybe?

Heb 7:22 by so much was Jesus made a surety of a better covenant.
yup an eternal High Priest not one that kept dying and needing to be replaced...ministering an IMMUTABLE LAW by an OATH that came after it verse 28.

Yup much better covenant but nothing there about NO MORE SABBATH or we can eat dogs now too...

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by so much He is also the Mediator of a better covenant, which was built upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been without fault, then no place would have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, He said to them, "Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, and I will make an end on the house of Israel and on the house of Judah; a new covenant shall be,
Heb 8:9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day I took hold of their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt," because they did not continue in My covenant, and I did not regard them, says the Lord.
Heb 8:10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My Laws into their mind and write them in their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Heb 8:11 And they shall not each man teach his neighbor, and each man his brother, saying, Know the Lord, for all shall know Me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities I will remember no more."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, A new covenant, He has made the first one old. Now that which decays and becomes old is ready to vanish away.

HalleluYah so what about the Law?...all this was about a shiny NEW COVENANT which contains the Law in it...and clearly in our hearts and minds...with new signers and co signers...I mean Yahushua taught and lived this New Better Covenant BEFORE He was killed signing it with His blood and sealing it with His death...no changers after testator dies right? It is complete FINISHED...in force only AFTER the death of the testator Heb 9:16-17 but you skipped that part too...

Too bad too as chapter 9 of Hebrews reveals that these covenants were so similar they still had the Law which demanded death to enforce them...Heb 9:22 you would think if the Covenants could change their Law omit the blood shedding clause BEFORE the signing and spare the shedding of blood of His Son...anyway this Once sacrifice remains to the end of the age as after death the judgement...which of course needs the LAW...duh...

Ok so did the Law survive your Hebrew Scripture dump? I still see it...nothing there about the New Covenant He lived and modeled and taught abrogating ONE of the 10 let alone ALL of them...don’t see much reason to eat swine either...

Heb 10 also deals with sin...after the day of Atonement mentioning blood of bulls and goats never removed sin...and also if we sin willfully after we have received knowledge of the truth there remains no sacrifice for sin...but fearful expectation of judgement to what...abolished Law? No it continues to encourage with endurance so that after you have done what...believed had faith? NO...but done the Will of Yah you may receive the promise...and then the famous quote THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH...ironically found in the OT Hab 2:4...NOTE: it is the JUST shall live and not the UNJUST by his faith...how is one JUST? According to what standard?

You left out Heb 11 too...the famous hall of fame of faith...28 by faith they kept the Passover...and then received the Law...NOT THE PROMISE...the good was STILL TO COME...since they OBEYED

Of course you mentioned parts of chapter 12...without reasoning why the chastisement if the Law was abolished no sin reveal...but NO look Verse 14 pursue peace with all men and HOLINESS without which no one will see the Lord...28 we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken...so serve Yah acceptably...you think false worship is acceptable...worship NOT LIKE He demonstrated?...30 For Yah is a consuming fire...to be feared...

Please note He ALONE is Immortal His fire burning forever...NOT HELL FIRE...Satan has us agaonizing and fearing an Eternal fire which is Him...how tragic...

Oh and finally you skipped chapter 13:8 Yahushua is the same yesterday today and forever...a Sabbath keeper...follow Him...9 the heart be established by Grace not clean foods...and yet once the heart is established clean by Grace what food will it allow for the body? Clean as it remains a holy temple His...and not your own...THAT is affirmed at the last

29 Now may Yah of peace who brought up our Lord Yahushua from the dead that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant 21 make you complete in every good work TO DO HIS WILL, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight through Yahushua...

So what is Yah’s Will? To give up Sabbath and eat cat bat and wombat?

Not found in a letter to the Hebrews...
 

Lon

Well-known member
So what is Yah’s Will? To give up Sabbath and eat cat bat and wombat?

Not found in a letter to the Hebrews...
Ah. "Other" makes so much sense now. We Protestants, Reformed, MAD, Evangelical, think otherwise:

Romans 6:13Do not present the parts of your body to sin as instruments of wickedness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and present the parts of your body to Him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. 15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law, but under grace? Certainly not!

2 Corinthians 3:2Co 3:6 who also has made us able ministers of the new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit makes alive.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, having been engraved in letters in stone was with glory (so that the sons of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses because of the glory of his face), which was being done away;
2Co 3:8 shall not the ministry of the Spirit be with more glory?

2Corinthians 3:11 For if that which has been done away was glorious, much more that which remains is glorious.

You cannot win against Paul. Why would anyone try? Scripture is true and Clefty is out in the cold.
 
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