Dumping the UB, for the Bible only.......just one option among many.....
Dumping the UB, for the Bible only.......just one option among many.....
Former UB reader testifies to his new Christian community about the Urantia cult and why he left.
Hi all,
I did listen to the this whole talk a few days ago, and will share some of my thoughts on it. A lot of the points Adre Traversa makes are found also on this Part 2 testimony posted on Facebook
here. I did respond at the bottom here, and addressed a bible verse that he found problematic, being 1 kings 16:34. He has issues of the UB's comment about the passage. This however is a matter of one's
interpretation, and I address it on another discussion forum, the link at bottom of FB page within my response. I did find it interesting, but there is support that the UB's claim concerning this passage regarding child sacrifice within building foundations is tenable. So in this instance, I didn't find really much 'weight' to abandon one's faith in the UB
over this particular, as it appears a number of factors worked in concert to make him finally abandon the UB. Here is the bible verse -
34 In his days Hiel the Bethelite built Jericho; he laid its foundations with the loss of Abiram his firstborn, and set up its gates with the loss of his youngest son Segub, according to the word of the Lord, which He spoke by Joshua the son of Nun.
- 1 Kings 16:34, NASB
Other translations -
In his days Hiel the Bethelite built Jericho; he laid its foundation in Abiram his firstborn, and set up its gates in Segub his youngest, according to the word of Jehovah which he spoke through Joshua the son of Nun. -DARBY
In Ahab’s time, Hiel of Bethel rebuilt Jericho. He laid its foundations at the cost of his firstborn son Abiram, and he set up its gates at the cost of his youngest son Segub, in accordance with the word of the Lord spoken by Joshua son of Nun. -NIV
Here is the UB passage about this verse, in a chapter about 'Evolution of human sacrifie' -
89:6.6 A petty king in Palestine. in building the walls of Jericho," laid the foundation thereof in Abiram, his first-born, and set up the gates thereof in his youngest son, Segub." At that late date, not only did this father put two of his sons alive in the foundation holes of the city's gates, but his action is also recorded as being "according to the word of the Lord." Moses had forbidden these foundation sacrifices, but the Israelites reverted to them soon after his death. The twentieth-century ceremony of depositing trinkets and keepsakes in the cornerstone of a new building is reminiscent of the primitive foundation sacrifices.
-Paper 89, 6.6
Here we see the UB claims the 2 sons of Heil were 'sacrificed into the building structures of Jericho', providing more info. about the nature of their deaths, and merely mentions
that the biblical text(record) claims that is was "according to the word of the Lord' given thru Joshua, since Joshua pronounced a curse to anyone who would rebuild Jericho. Note this is the claim of the passage itself. Andre's contention is that there is no 'proof' that the 2 sons were 'sacrificed alive' into any of the building structures (the grammar used here is peculiar and may grant various allowances if you look up different translations), and that just because the UB mentions that his action is 'recorded as being "according to the word of the Lord"' that this means God is endorsing such sacrifices, but this latter conjecture is absurd. First of all, child sacrifices were common in those days and ancient times (see
Paper 89.6 on this), as some were put into walls or various building structures as a 'sacrifice' for whatever reason. Also the UB does NOT claim that 'God' (in actuality) spoke thru Joshua or anyone for that matter to deliver a CURSE on anyone,
as the UB is adamant on revealing a God who does not curse or demand human sacrifice at any time! Furthermore, the UB states that Moses forbid such things. So one this score, Andre has misconstrued a lot.
For years he teetered back and forth between a more bible based faith, and a community of UB-readers and enthusiasts,...falling back to one or another depending on whatever conditions or feelings were guiding his way, until he currently is a bible-only believing 'Christian', at least that's the 'status' at the moment. It seems the easier route of just believing Jesus paid it all (did it all for you), died for your sins enacting a 'blood atonement', and gives you a free pass into heaven (more or less), plus the cordial heart felt emotional bonds of his present church family, is satisfying all his needs for the time being. As far as refuting the UB as a whole, no evidence was provided beyond it providing extra-biblical knowledge or concepts, yet he admits there is some truth in it
of course. On that note, everyone must search out and study for themselves, think for themselves. Whatever is subject to change, can change at any moment or provide the right conditions for a different course or conclusion,...yet even that is more or less transitory, since life/consciousness is evolving, unfolding, ever-changing, transforming. Such is life :surf:
- In that vein we shall continue :thumb: - it just so happens that the usual responses and claims about the UB, and the typical polemics against it, from a fundamentalist bible-only view, can become a bit tedious as to garnish the same responses back in kind, so we all have to be more careful at how we engage the art of dialogue here, and make the most of its opportunities. It can be challenging however which forces us towards greater sensitivity and creativity, if we would engage that, in moving discussions towards constructive ends. I'll be commenting on the last video shared soon.
