The Late Great Urantia Revelation

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Lazy afternoon

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Urantia vs bible?


Urantia book 186:5.2 “It was man and not God who planned and executed the death of Jesus on the cross. True, the Father refused to interfere with the march of human events on Urantia, but the Father in Paradise did not decree, demand, or require the death of his Son as it was carried out on earth.”

Acts 2:23-25”Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; “whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. “For David says concerning Him: 'I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.

186:5.7 “Jesus is not about to die as a sacrifice for sin. He is not going to atone for the inborn moral guilt of the human race. Mankind has no such racial guilt before God. Guilt is purely a matter of personal sin and knowing, deliberate rebellion against the will of the Father and the administration of his Sons” (bold mine).

I choose God, himself through his word:

16939703_10211880245420000_252059365614352392_n.jpg

The Urantia quotes above just highlight the evil and non-Christian writing that it is.

LA
 

Lazy afternoon

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LIFETIME MEMBER
It would be a much better enterprise to take the good from every dispensation, and augment one's own religious philosophy and practice thereby, then to merely 'demonize' every thing that appears to be different, unorthodox or indifferent to one's own religion. Love integrates and includes all good synergistically, while fear divides, condemns and villifies. It might be for us to recognize love and wisdom at the fore, than merely a rigid or dogmatic theology that cramps one's spiritual freedom, rather than sets it free to value all truth, goodness and beauty wherever it is found.

A new age philosophy will not get you into eternal life.

LA
 

TulipBee

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Its not really a matter of the UB vs. the Bible here, since there are other religious texts that do NOT support the efficacy of 'blood atonement', even verses in the Bible itself, although it uses the blood of Christ as 'symbolic' of a cleansing, redeeming life-giving sacrifice, yet there are various ways to 'interpret' it. I think you need to read all the commmentaries and the links in them that I've provided so far, instead of just cherry picking this or that just to CONTEST whatever is written. ALSO, there are various conceptual definitions or kinds of 'atonement' posited about the death of Jesus, so this isnt something written in stone,...its 'figurative', 'allegorical'.

You might also want to read any passage 'in context' like the whole part 5 of Paper 186 here.

Here is some more passage in the section you quote from -

186:5.4 The gospel of the good news that mortal man may, by faith, become spirit-conscious that he is a son of God, is not dependent on the death of Jesus. True, indeed, all this gospel of the kingdom has been tremendously illuminated by the Master's death, but even more so by his life.

~*~*~

186:5.8 Sin and rebellion have nothing to do with the fundamental bestowal plan of the Paradise Sons of God, albeit it does appear to us that the salvage plan is a provisional feature of the bestowal plan.

186:5.9 The salvation of God for the mortals of Urantia would have been just as effective and unerringly certain if Jesus had not been put to death by the cruel hands of ignorant mortals. If the Master had been favorably received by the mortals of earth and had departed from Urantia by the voluntary relinquishment of his life in the flesh, the fact of the love of God and the mercy of the Son—the fact of sonship with God—would have in no wise been affected. You mortals are the sons of God, and only one thing is required to make such a truth factual in your personal experience, and that is your spirit-born faith.



~*~*~




We might question if it was 'predetermined' or forcefully caused by God himself, the death of Jesus, but we could assume that in God's foreknowledge....all possibilities, probabilities and pontentials are known to God, - since God does know all that is knowable. The UB maintains that such a 'death' was not necessary to effect an atonement, since God's love is already fully existing and available to all his sons and daughters, and the life of Jesus, his revelation of God in the flesh, his manifesting the Father to us, was all that was essential, by the his bestowal(incarnation) of himself to us. - his gospel of the kingdom includes the revelation that God is our Father, and we are his children and this is enhanced and realized more by faith, the rebirth of the spirit thru the revelation. So,...no blood was needed by a God to merit or obtain for man, God's grace since such grace is ever available that he can access by faith.

186:5.7 “Jesus is not about to die as a sacrifice for sin. He is not going to atone for the inborn moral guilt of the human race. Mankind has no such racial guilt before God. Guilt is purely a matter of personal sin and knowing, deliberate rebellion against the will of the Father and the administration of his Sons” (bold mine).

Yes,...the narrative says Jesus was not just a sacrifice for sin, neither can the death of a person atone for the sins of another,...this is clearly taught in the OT, see Ezekiel for starters. Even blood of animals did not clean sins, they are only symbolic, there is no 'magic' in the blood, apart from some 'faith' of the worshipper or some spiritual transfer or psychic change within. It still holds as the prophets proclaim, and Jesus and his apostles taught,...."repent, for the kingdom of heaven is come near".



That might work in Sunday School,...but we've already addressed the belief and concept that 'God' wrote the bible personally as if guiding every single word of it,...a belief rather magnificient and mind-boggling, since the volume is by no means without errors, contradictions, variant readings and imperfections. - thats understandable for a collection of books written by different human authors amid varying agendas and copied translations, where some errors, glosses, ommissions, interpolations, redactions, etc. Hence my view that the book is inerrant, infallible is quite a 'stretch', and is unnecessary. This does not discount any inspiration, good or value in the Bible, of course not, it just recognizes its imperfection, limitations, human filtering. The UB recognizes and honors the truth, wisdom, good that has come down thru the Bible, and is still part of our religious heritage, as a particular 'dispensation'.

This also goes for the UB, mind you, since the celestial authors so assumed used human knowledge of the times (20th century) to expand/expound upon in many areas, so these are somewhat limited to those conceptual frames, and its admitted in the science/cosmology given, that some info. will undergo updating and modification, as new science and discoveries unfold. The authors also admit in some places not knowings certain things and postulating on some things, so the UB does not claim infallibility or innerrancy. It represents a certain dispensation of knowledge/revelation proportionate to what was allowed during its transmission. It came thru human mediums, filtered thru human instruments more or less, so...it may bear some colouring and imperfections thereby. Such things are to be logically expected, and then again, any religious book or 'revelation' is to be weighed by its own value, meaning, quality, character and CONTENT.

It would be a much better enterprise to take the good from every dispensation, and augment one's own religious philosophy and practice thereby, then to merely 'demonize' every thing that appears to be different, unorthodox or indifferent to one's own religion. Love integrates and includes all good synergistically, while fear divides, condemns and villifies. It might be for us to recognize love and wisdom at the fore, than merely a rigid or dogmatic theology that cramps one's spiritual freedom, rather than sets it free to value all truth, goodness and beauty wherever it is found.
I don't fall for every commentaries but I'll read any bible quotes you use. That way I'll know truth from fiction
 

Zeke

Well-known member
A new age philosophy will not get you into eternal life.

LA
Yet the westernized dogma you base those assumptions on is the new pup compared to the esoteric gravy train it was plagiarized from.
Then you will be in a lot of trouble trying to live a Holy life without giving due respect to the sacrifice of Christ to make it legal to eat of the tree of life.

Do not be taken in by all the long posts and human reasonings of Freelight.

The truth is so simple that even a child can understand it but not Freelight and UB.



It is not worth a hill of beans without the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and you have to lie to yourself and to the Lord that you are really accomplishing anything.

Sin will hold its vice like grip on you no matter what you do by way of self sacrifice without the shed blood of Jesus Christ and your believing its worth and preaching it.

LA


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marhig

Well-known member
Then you will be in a lot of trouble trying to live a Holy life without giving due respect to the sacrifice of Christ to make it legal to eat of the tree of life.

Do not be taken in by all the long posts and human reasonings of Freelight.

The truth is so simple that even a child can understand it but not Freelight and UB.



It is not worth a hill of beans without the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and you have to lie to yourself and to the Lord that you are really accomplishing anything.

Sin will hold its vice like grip on you no matter what you do by way of self sacrifice without the shed blood of Jesus Christ and your believing its worth and preaching it.

LA

What do you think that the tree of Life is? Thanks
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
At-one-ment with God ................

At-one-ment with God ................

The Urantia quotes above just highlight the evil and non-Christian writing that it is.

LA

This is an assumption based upon a strongly held presupposition and belief that there MUST be bloodshed in order to effect a 'redemption', 'cleansing' or 'forgiveness' of sin, when all that is required for such is a 'release' of sin and a return to righteousness,...yes....'faith' is the essential, and is a gift God gives to enable us to respond in order to be restored, and that cannot come about apart from the soul undergoing the process of 'repentance' within, which then produces good works (actions that include all that one can do to make amends, which prove one has changed his heart and mind). My former commentary stands with more to come :)

Remember He said,

"I desire mercy(compassion, kindness, love, loyalty) and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings". - Hosea 6:6

Also,

Samuel said,

“Has the Lord as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
As in obeying the voice of the Lord?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,
And to heed than the fat of rams."


- 1 Samuel 15:22

Again, there is no substitute for right doing, which repentance enables as being essential.

All sacrificial systems are merely symbolic unless you can prove some kind of psychic or spiritual force being effected or obtained by the KILLING of souls (animals or human) that actually have a beneficial or restorative effect on a person to whom the sacrifice is being made. Otherwise, while there may be some psychological force or mechanisms in place in the whole sacrificial act, what really avails is the inward transformation of soul and spirit, to effect a return to God and his law, a restoring of the conscience, a desire to do good, a willing to forgive, a return to love, etc. 'God' looks at the heart and searches the inwards parts,...and the pure in heart see Him. They who call upon his name are delivered,...again, the direct-path method of gaining an audience and embrace of 'God' is thru sincere prayer, intense longing for his Being, calling on his name, choosing his will, his way, his divine love, his presence. What else can produce restoration???? When these are inspired by grace thru the power of the Spirit, the communion of the soul with God is even more intense...to effect 'at-one-ment' of the soul with Deity. What did God always ask and instruct his people to do? RE-TURN to Him. Re-pent. Put away evil deeds, DO what is good,....Stop doing what is wrong...DO what is right.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
I don't fall for every commentaries but I'll read any bible quotes you use. That way I'll know truth from fiction

One doesn't have to specify the exact chapter and verse to communicate a truth or principle that is contained or expressed in the Bible. If you will not consider anything outside of your preconceived or constrained concept of God and reality, then your ability to engage in free open dialogue without such heavy filters and conditioners is hindered. Truth, wisdom, true values, meanings, principle...are open for any seeker of truth to investigate to discover such for himself. If you limit yourself to only one little collection of religious books, you are not really free, but imprisoned to your 'belief' that they contain the whole of infinity, which they DO NOT.
 

TulipBee

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One doesn't have to specify the exact chapter and verse to communicate a truth or principle that is contained or expressed in the Bible. If you will not consider anything outside of your preconceived or constrained concept of God and reality, then your ability to engage in free open dialogue without such heavy filters and conditioners is hindered. Truth, wisdom, true values, meanings, principle...are open for any seeker of truth to investigate to discover such for himself. If you limit yourself to only one little collection of religious books, you are not really free, but imprisoned to your 'belief' that they contain the whole of infinity, which they DO NOT.
Men don't get to create truths and some spirit beings tell lies. You don't know which celestials are truthful. Intelligence means accuracy. You're not accurate caused you go by the roll of dices. I can't say you're right and this and wrong about that. I don't gamble with the real truths. Wisdom trumps intelligence. I'm wise not to fall for everything you say. So yeah I read lots of works by all kinds of beings but I use the bible to test if those beings are truthful. I found tons of lies in your posts.
 

Caino

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Blood sacrifice was a common practice in the Pagan world all around the earth in many religions. Melchizedek taught Abraham salvation by faith, he introduced the tradition of "bread and wine" instead of blood sacrifice. You can see that in the Bible. But such a simple idea was too much for a more primitive people who couldn't comprehend forgiveness for nothing other than receiving it from God.

After Jesus died, the original gospel changed in the same way, people just could not grasp receiving forgiveness from a Loving and forgiving God and in turn forgiving others. So the Roman Pagans, who adopted and merged with the new Christian message, naturally saw Jesus as a final sort of sacrifice. That made more sense to them. Instead of hearing the original gospel, they heard a variation which was more familiar to them as they already believed in blood atonement for sin; theoretical salvation.


Gen 14 17-20

17Then after his return from the defeat of Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with him, the king of Sodom went out to meet him at the valley of Shaveh (that is, the King’s Valley). 18And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; now he was a priest of God Most High.

19He blessed him and said,
“Blessed be Abram of God Most High,
Possessor of heaven and earth;

20And blessed be God Most High,
Who has delivered your enemies into your hand.”
He gave him a tenth of all.
 
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Caino

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“Master, what is the kingdom of heaven?” And Jesus answered: “The kingdom of heaven consists in these three essentials: first, recognition of the fact of the sovereignty of God; second, belief in the truth of sonship with God; and third, faith in the effectiveness of the supreme human desire to do the will of God — to be like God. And this is the good news of the gospel: that by faith every mortal may have all these essentials of salvation.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Keeping to the heavenly vision................

Keeping to the heavenly vision................

Men don't get to create truths and some spirit beings tell lies. You don't know which celestials are truthful. Intelligence means accuracy. You're not accurate caused you go by the roll of dices. I can't say you're right and this and wrong about that. I don't gamble with the real truths. Wisdom trumps intelligence. I'm wise not to fall for everything you say. So yeah I read lots of works by all kinds of beings but I use the bible to test if those beings are truthful. I found tons of lies in your posts.

An awesome platform this is, for real lovers of wisdom to consider all that is shared, and let the spirit of truth lead them. Truth is living, dymanic.....corresponding and being recognized by the very spirit of God within (the thought-adjuster), since that very fragment of divinity is Deity, so it has all the original pre-personal qualities and attributes of 'God' himself which is later fused into the evolving soul if and when it puts on immortality, having attained survival status. This is further reflected in the 'conscience' which mirrors the law of God. - this 'conscience' is within every living soul, regardless of his exposure or learning of any religious laws, rules or moral precepts in a religiously formal context.

Therefore in this original creation of man is 'original goodness' and the power of 'discernment', wherein also man is given genuine free will, for the Universal Father has free will, the power of determination. In this way we reflect the original nature and faculties of soul which mirror the Spirit and can maximize these potentials to God's glory towards perfection. Remember Jesus calls us to "be perfect" in the Father's love, by showing the same kind of love to others, and in this do we be become perfect in God, as God (in our own sphere and form). As the divine nature is love, its will and motive for all creation is towards its flourishing, its positive evolution, growth, enhancement, multiplication, creative expression. In this we look to the OPEN FUTURE of all human potential and progress because it is God' grace and empowerment that makes all possible. - this is the creative purpose of life, the guiding motive of creation.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
“Master, what is the kingdom of heaven?” And Jesus answered: “The kingdom of heaven consists in these three essentials: first, recognition of the fact of the sovereignty of God; second, belief in the truth of sonship with God; and third, faith in the effectiveness of the supreme human desire to do the will of God — to be like God. And this is the good news of the gospel: that by faith every mortal may have all these essentials of salvation.

:thumb:

And the Calvinists should note here that God's sovereignty is heralded as first and foremost, and rightly so, because divine providence allows for and sustains all actuals and potentials of Creation.- this naturally includes the probable futures determined by free agency. Second is man's inheritance and relationship as God's son, which is realized thru cooperation, relationship, the synergistic union of wills committed to eternal progress, co-creation and unending universe service.
 

Zeke

Well-known member
The mortal myth is a persona indoctrinated perception, makes for good exoteric/phenomenology rhetoric to debate but has no bearing on life that has never been mortal nor in need of salvation.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
The mortal myth is a persona indoctrinated perception, makes for good exoteric/phenomenology rhetoric to debate but has no bearing on life that has never been mortal nor in need of salvation.


:) - Indeed,...but as you know...in our discussions we are inter-facing the muse and myth of the matrix. The religious and philosophical matrix is even more wondrous! and extra FUN to explore. Indeed, as pure consciousness, as 'God-reality',...we if we identify as this (this would be our total identification with the 'thought-adjuster' in UB nomenclature)...there is nothing that needs saving or salvation, since ALL of 'God' already is God,...that divine reality is ABSOLUTE, timeless, everpresent, omniradiant. Yes....in that non-dual reality, there is no relativity to engage, until our minds dive into the realm of illusions in the play of space-time-creation, where all is distorted from the original sphere of pure awareness and enters various abstractions ;)

But we do have to keep our terms and 'theology' within the language we are familiar with 'religiously speaking'. - Its fun, and we get to build our own theology while we're at it, because such is the nature of creation. Every moment we are engaged in co-creation. Awesome eh?
 

Zeke

Well-known member
:) - Indeed,...but as you know...in our discussions we are inter-facing the muse and myth of the matrix. The religious and philosophical matrix is even more wondrous! and extra FUN to explore. Indeed, as pure consciousness, as 'God-reality',...we if we identify as this (this would be our total identification with the 'thought-adjuster' in UB nomenclature)...there is nothing that needs saving or salvation, since ALL of 'God' already is God,...that divine reality is ABSOLUTE, timeless, everpresent, omniradiant. Yes....in that non-dual reality, there is no relativity to engage, until our minds dive into the realm of illusions in the play of space-time-creation, where all is distorted from the original sphere of pure awareness and enters various abstractions ;)

But we do have to keep our terms and 'theology' within the language we are familiar with 'religiously speaking'. - Its fun, and we get to build our own theology while we're at it, because such is the nature of creation. Every moment we are engaged in co-creation. Awesome eh?

Yea that's part of the gig, but once the emperor of salvation is seen to have no clothes the play/theatrics of this duality fades into the realm of humorous dialectic with multiple choice rabbit trails/exoteric religions guided by the supreme tour guide whose goes by the handle of emotion 10-4 good buddy! catch ya on the flip flop over and out.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Yea that's part of the gig, but once the emperor of salvation is seen to have no clothes the play/theatrics of this duality fades into the realm of humorous dialectic with multiple choice rabbit trails/exoteric religions guided by the supreme tour guide whose goes by the handle of emotion 10-4 good buddy! catch ya on the flip flop over and out.

:thumb: - keep your cosmic star-gate open :crackup:

~*~*~

3:6.7 The infinite and eternal Ruler of the universe of universes is power, form, energy, process, pattern, principle, presence, and idealized reality. But he is more; he is personal; he exercises a sovereign will, experiences self-consciousness of divinity, executes the mandates of a creative mind, pursues the satisfaction of the realization of an eternal purpose, and manifests a Father's love and affection for his universe children.

3:6.8 God the Father loves men; God the Son serves men; God the Spirit inspires the children of the universe to the ever-ascending adventure of finding God the Father by the ways ordained by God the Sons through the ministry of the grace of God the Spirit.
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
What do you think that the tree of Life is? Thanks

Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

What makes people think they can eat from the tree of life without the shed blood of Jesus Christ?

What makes people think they are not eating from the tree of knowledge and be damned to a Christless eternity?

LA
 

marhig

Well-known member
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

What makes people think they can eat from the tree of life without the shed blood of Jesus Christ?

What makes people think they are not eating from the tree of knowledge and be damned to a Christless eternity?

LA

But do you know what the tree of Life is? I'm just wondering?

And where does it say in the Bible that we can't eat off the tree of Life without the shed blood of Jesus Christ? Thanks
 

Lazy afternoon

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LIFETIME MEMBER
But do you know what the tree of Life is? I'm just wondering?

And where does it say in the Bible that we can't eat off the tree of Life without the shed blood of Jesus Christ? Thanks

Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Joh 6:48 I am that bread of life.
Joh 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
Joh 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Joh 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
LA
 
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