The Late Great Urantia Revelation

[freelight]

Embellishments in scripture..........

Embellishments in scripture..........

The UB explains that the Hebrews vastly exaggerated their history when they rewrote the OT in Babylon leaving many mistakes and fragments of the earlier writings.

And this part of history is interesting, as far as how much was 'rewritten' or 'revised' during this period. I wondered if the Dead Sea Scrolls share any insights here or if we can find any historical evidence for when 'creative license' in the 'scriptures' might have taken place, compared to what was written before, if any of those records still exist, to compare.

 

[RBBI]

The UB explains that the Hebrews vastly exaggerated their history when they rewrote the OT in Babylon leaving many mistakes and fragments of the earlier writings.

Really. Have you ever read of the ELS code program that they applied to the Torah? The stats on probability are off the charts.

 

[freelight]

Beyond bible codes......

Beyond bible codes......

Really. Have you ever read of the ELS code program that they applied to the Torah? The stats on probability are off the charts.

I don't know if any of the so called 'bible codes' or 'theomatics' necessarily proves the authenticity of the writings, but even so,...you still must bear the OT's teachings respecting the law and the covenant, BUT with a NT spin on it. This disavows the first or original covenant and replaces it with another, at least from an Orthodox Jewish perspective. Now whether theomatics could be applied to the NT (granted the many text variants) I haven't researched into that,...but you still have problems with assuming the Bible is wholly without error, or that it is entirely infallible. That even for any religious book is an extraordinary claim. That one can certainly draw truth and value from religious writings is sure,...but we ought be careful we don't worship the letter over the Spirit.

Paul asides,...if your worship of the Torah is so exemplary...perhaps you'd be a Torah observant orthodox Jew instead of a Christian? The disconnect and paradox of Judaism and Christianity is they can be compared in two extremes of the poles....being entirely different religious belief-systems, or one just being a branch, extension or renewal of Judaism with Jesus as the Messiah, but interpreted and proved from a Christian perspective and interpretation of OT passages.

The UB presents Jesus as the Savior and Creator-Son of this world, so that he didn't necessarily fulfill or come as the Jewish Messiah per se, although he allowed his disciples to believe that, since some of the Messianic expectations would be fulfilled eventually in his teachings on the kingdom of God, which is more of a universal brotherhood of mankind, under the universal Fatherhood of God.

 

[Foxfire]

And this part of history is interesting, as far as how much was 'rewritten' or 'revised' during this period. I wondered if the Dead Sea Scrolls share any insights here or if we can find any historical evidence for when 'creative license' in the 'scriptures' might have taken place, compared to what was written before, if any of those records still exist, to compare.

I suppose that it sorta depends on what you think of as the Dead Sea Scrolls.

The first seven scrolls to be translated (J. M. Allegro) contained a copy of Isaiah that differed slightly from the received text. A more...shall we say....earthy rendering. Those scrolls came from cave #1.
The bulk of the cave #1 scrolls were mostly relating to (their) contemporary times and "projecting" forward.
A protracted war between the children of light and the children of darkness. (Kittem [Romans])
A copper scroll that detailed the disposition of the spoils of the Temple. (post 70 AD?)
A sectarian commentary on Habakkuk. A mysterious "Teacher of Righteousness".

Later discoveries included numerous volumes of the Book of Enoch among the 2,000 or so, shredded scrolls.

The translations of the later discoveries were tightly controlled by "Father Roland Guérin de Vaux" who withheld the translated text for decades.

 

[Caino]

And this part of history is interesting, as far as how much was 'rewritten' or 'revised' during this period. I wondered if the Dead Sea Scrolls share any insights here or if we can find any historical evidence for when 'creative license' in the 'scriptures' might have taken place, compared to what was written before, if any of those records still exist, to compare.

The Dead Sea Scrolls came after the enmass redactions in Babylon.

But ironically Melchizedek is considered a divine being who will return in one fragment of the DSS.

 

[Caino]

"102:8.2 Regarding the status of any religion in the evolutionary scale, it may best be judged by its moral judgments and its ethical standards. The higher the type of any religion, the more it encourages and is encouraged by a constantly improving social morality and ethical culture. We cannot judge religion by the status of its accompanying civilization; we had better estimate the real nature of a civilization by the purity and nobility of its religion. Many of the world's most notable religious teachers have been virtually unlettered. The wisdom of the world is not necessary to an exercise of saving faith in eternal realities."

 

[freelight]

The 'Son of Man' in the Book of Enoch......

The 'Son of Man' in the Book of Enoch......

I suppose that it sorta depends on what you think of as the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Later discoveries included numerous volumes of the Book of Enoch among the 2,000 or so, shredded scrolls.

Yes,..I find the Enochian writings very interesting,...the UB indicates that Jesus had access to the Book of Enoch from which he drew from and adopted the term 'Son of Man' concerning his mission for himself, hence he often refers to himself often by that 'title'. Below is a portion covering his activities at age 15.

126:3.6 In the course of this year Jesus found a passage in the so-called Book of Enoch which influenced him in the later adoption of the term “Son of Man” as a designation for his bestowal mission on Urantia. He had thoroughly considered the idea of the Jewish Messiah and was firmly convinced that he was not to be that Messiah. He longed to help his father's people, but he never expected to lead Jewish armies in overthrowing the foreign domination of Palestine. He knew he would never sit on the throne of David at Jerusalem. Neither did he believe that his mission was that of a spiritual deliverer or moral teacher solely to the Jewish people. In no sense, therefore, could his life mission be the fulfillment of the intense longings and supposed Messianic prophecies of the Hebrew scriptures; at least, not as the Jews understood these predictions of the prophets. Likewise he was certain he was never to appear as the Son of Man depicted by the Prophet Daniel.

126:3.7 But when the time came for him to go forth as a world teacher, what would he call himself? What claim should he make concerning his mission? By what name would he be called by the people who would become believers in his teachings?

126:3.8 While turning all these problems over in his mind, he found in the synagogue library at Nazareth, among the apocalyptic books which he had been studying, this manuscript called "The Book of Enoch”; and though he was certain that it had not been written by Enoch of old, it proved very intriguing to him, and he read and reread it many times. There was one passage which particularly impressed him, a passage in which this term “Son of Man” appeared. The writer of this so-called Book of Enoch went on to tell about this Son of Man, describing the work he would do on earth and explaining that this Son of Man, before coming down on this earth to bring salvation to mankind, had walked through the courts of heavenly glory with his Father, the Father of all; and that he had turned his back upon all this grandeur and glory to come down on earth to proclaim salvation to needy mortals. As Jesus would read these passages (well understanding that much of the Eastern mysticism which had become admixed with these teachings was erroneous), he responded in his heart and recognized in his mind that of all the Messianic predictions of the Hebrew scriptures and of all the theories about the Jewish deliverer, none was so near the truth as this story tucked away in this only partially accredited Book of Enoch; and he then and there decided to adopt as his inaugural title “the Son of Man.” And this he did when he subsequently began his public work. Jesus had an unerring ability for the recognition of truth, and truth he never hesitated to embrace, no matter from what source it appeared to emanate.

We know from Jude that the BOE (book of enoch) was used and recognized by some early Jews and Christians, although some peculiar reasons, perhaps religious, political and doctrinal ones worked against the book to eventually snuff out its existence, until its resurfacing in later years, some fragments found among the DSS. If this record is true, Jesus had an affinity with Enoch

 

[RBBI]

I don't know if any of the so called 'bible codes' or 'theomatics' necessarily proves the authenticity of the writings, but even so,...you still must bear the OT's teachings respecting the law and the covenant, BUT with a NT spin on it. This disavows the first or original covenant and replaces it with another, at least from an Orthodox Jewish perspective. Now whether theomatics could be applied to the NT (granted the many text variants) I haven't researched into that,...but you still have problems with assuming the Bible is wholly without error, or that it is entirely infallible. That even for any religious book is an extraordinary claim. That one can certainly draw truth and value from religious writings is sure,...but we ought be careful we don't worship the letter over the Spirit.

I assure you I don't worship the letter over the Spirit, however one witnesses the other. If you truly want to know about the Torah's accuracy, you should look into the codes found.

Paul asides,...if your worship of the Torah is so exemplary...perhaps you'd be a Torah observant orthodox Jew instead of a Christian?

I am Torah observant, but I'm a MESSIANIC (Jewish) Christian. The difference is embracing the framework out of LOVE, and not out of a sense of obligation as a condition of salvation. The two are only perceived as being poles apart because of the present condition of the "church". Had the branch not boasted itself against the tree it was grafted into, this would not be so.


The disconnect and paradox of Judaism and Christianity is they can be compared in two extremes of the poles....being entirely different religious belief-systems, or one just being a branch, extension or renewal of Judaism with Jesus as the Messiah, but interpreted and proved from a Christian perspective and interpretation of OT passages.

Answered above.

The UB presents Jesus as the Savior and Creator-Son of this world, so that he didn't necessarily fulfill or come as the Jewish Messiah per se, although he allowed his disciples to believe that, since some of the Messianic expectations would be fulfilled eventually in his teachings on the kingdom of God, which is more of a universal brotherhood of mankind, under the universal Fatherhood of God.

Now why would He do something clearly deceptive as to let them believe a fallacy?

 

[Caino]

137:5.3 "That night Jesus did not sleep. Donning his evening wraps, he sat out on the lake shore thinking, thinking until the dawn of the next day. In the long hours of that night of meditation Jesus came clearly to comprehend that he never would be able to make his followers see him in any other light than as the long-expected Messiah. At last he recognized that there was no way to launch his message of the kingdom except as the fulfillment of John's prediction and as the one for whom the Jews were looking. After all, though he was not the Davidic type of Messiah, he was truly the fulfillment of the prophetic utterances of the more spiritually minded of the olden seers. Never again did he wholly deny that he was the Messiah. He decided to leave the final untangling of this complicated situation to the outworking of the Father's will."

 

[RBBI]

137:5.3 "That night Jesus did not sleep. Donning his evening wraps, he sat out on the lake shore thinking, thinking until the dawn of the next day. In the long hours of that night of meditation Jesus came clearly to comprehend that he never would be able to make his followers see him in any other light than as the long-expected Messiah. At last he recognized that there was no way to launch his message of the kingdom except as the fulfillment of John's prediction and as the one for whom the Jews were looking. After all, though he was not the Davidic type of Messiah, he was truly the fulfillment of the prophetic utterances of the more spiritually minded of the olden seers. Never again did he wholly deny that he was the Messiah. He decided to leave the final untangling of this complicated situation to the outworking of the Father's will."

Am I supposed to accept this as coming from the Spirit? Change your robes while you still can. Peace

 

[Caino]

Am I supposed to accept this as coming from the Spirit? Change your robes while you still can. Peace

Do what you want, the fact is Jesus left, he didn't do what the Jewish Messiah was supposed to do, he didn't take up David's filthy rotten seat to fight off the enemies of the self described "chosen people". Jesus left their house desolate, Jerusalem was destroyed not long after Jesus returned to heaven. Jesus was very different than the OT concepts of God. The Jews had NO belief in God having a Son who was also God, coming down from heaven, being killed and returning to heaven! Natta! Nope! Nowhere!

 

[freelight]

Making Jesus fit your 'pre-scription'......

Making Jesus fit your 'pre-scription'......

Am I supposed to accept this as coming from the Spirit? Change your robes while you still can. Peace

I don't see anything intrinsically wrong with such a comprehension from Jesus, and don't see the scenario as played out in these papers as portraying Jesus as 'lying', since the messianic prophecies/expectations were long bred into Jewish culture, and Jesus used such to his advantage, never being untrue to his actual spiritual mission in proclaiming the kingdom of God, which was founded in the truth of the Fatherhood of God and Brotherhood of Man. (his Saviorship and Lordship is 'universal')

See: The kingdom of heaven

You're just seeing it from a circumscribed view of Jesus having to be the Jewish Messiah, however...Jesus doesn't have to just fit that 'pre-scription', and in fact most orthodox Jews don't accept Jesus as their 'Jewish' Messiah because he didn't meet the requirements according to their scriptures and traditions to be that, so seeing that Jesus did NOT fulfill the Jewish criteria to be their Messiah is not that difficult to see.

 

[RBBI]

Do what you want, the fact is Jesus left, he didn't do what the Jewish Messiah was supposed to do, he didn't take up David's filthy rotten seat to fight off the enemies of the self described "chosen people". Jesus left their house desolate, Jerusalem was destroyed not long after Jesus returned to heaven. Jesus was very different than the OT concepts of God. The Jews had NO belief in God having a Son who was also God, coming down from heaven, being killed and returning to heaven! Natta! Nope! Nowhere!

He did EXACTLY what He was supposed to do. The problem lie with the Pharisees who were the keepers of the scriptures, who studied them all day every day and were well aware of what was in them, but found it "inconvenient" to tell the people what they found in the depths of it. For instance, about 15 years ago there was a Jewish scholar in Chicago who obtained part of the Dead Sea Scrolls to translate and study.

What happened next was he risked his life to release the truth and the truth was that a small portion in Isaiah speaking of the Son of HaShem was taken out. Taken out sometime before around 800 AD. I sat in a room with many messianic rabbis that day who openly cried as the man said, "You know what this means, don't you? The gentiles didn't do this to us, our own people did!"

And again, it IS there.....The first 3 letters of Genesis 1 taken out of Bereshit/beginning, are Bet, Resh, and Alef. It starts with the letter Bet (build a house and they will come).

Alef is an ox or strength, bet means house or tent = the strength of the tent, which is the Father, or AB(ABBA phonetically).

Next is Resh, which means head, where we get bar or SON. So you could say the strength of the tent is the Father, the head/authority is the Son.

Shin means teeth or destroying.

Yod is next and means an arm or hand, doing works.

Next is a Tau, which looks like a cross. What you see is a picture of Him destroying Himself on a cross. This is more visible when you see the paleo Hebrew letters.

Note that Alef Tau is in the word for beginning. He is the Alpha and the Omega. And the Alef and the Resh combine to make the word for fire.

In beginning, HaShem created the heavens and the earth. Since the word for beginning can also mean firstfruits, then it could be read this way with wisdom. In the firstfruits, HaShem created the heavens/mind of Spirit, and the earth/glorified body, better known as the body of the Son.

He declared the end from the beginning. The Jews missed Him because they were looking for a conquering king not a suffering servant, even though that aspect of Him was in plain sight in the text also. Most of the Christians are missing His appearing for the same reason this time around. They are looking for a conquering king to come to them first, instead of a suffering servant. But we must die with Him to resurrect with Him, and you can't resurrect without dying.

As for the "filthy, rotten seat of David", it is a part of His fulfillment of all things, so if you have a problem with that, then perhaps you have a problem with Him that no amount of New Age rhetoric is going to salve or cover? NOTHING done is secret will not be brought out into the light. Again, I say, change your robes while you still have time. Peace

 

[RBBI]

I don't see anything intrinsically wrong with such a comprehension from Jesus, and don't see the scenario as played out in these papers as portraying Jesus as 'lying', since the messianic prophecies/expectations were long bred into Jewish culture, and Jesus used such to his advantage, never being untrue to his actual spiritual mission in proclaiming the kingdom of God, which was founded in the truth of the Fatherhood of God and Brotherhood of Man. (his Saviorship and Lordship is 'universal')

If you take the spots off a leopard is it still a leopard?

See: The kingdom of heaven

You're just seeing it from a circumscribed view of Jesus having to be the Jewish Messiah, however...Jesus doesn't have to just fit that 'pre-scription', and in fact most orthodox Jews don't accept Jesus as their 'Jewish' Messiah because he didn't meet the requirements according to their scriptures and traditions to be that, so seeing that Jesus did NOT fulfill the Jewish criteria to be their Messiah is not that difficult to see.

Yes He did. Their understanding of them was colored by the leaders who didn't want their 'livelihoods" and esteem of the community taken away. In short, they didn't want to die to self. None of it was a surprise; they were concluded in unbelief for a season. Now they are being called in.

It is only temporary, as you can read that Caiphais the High Priest at the time He died, PROPHESIED by the HOLY GHOST. HaShem can touch them anytime He chooses.

 

[Caino]

He did EXACTLY what He was supposed to do. The problem lie with the Pharisees who were the keepers of the scriptures, who studied them all day every day and were well aware of what was in them, but found it "inconvenient" to tell the people what they found in the depths of it. For instance, about 15 years ago there was a Jewish scholar in Chicago who obtained part of the Dead Sea Scrolls to translate and study.

What happened next was he risked his life to release the truth and the truth was that a small portion in Isaiah speaking of the Son of HaShem was taken out. Taken out sometime before around 800 AD. I sat in a room with many messianic rabbis that day who openly cried as the man said, "You know what this means, don't you? The gentiles didn't do this to us, our own people did!"

And again, it IS there.....The first 3 letters of Genesis 1 taken out of Bereshit/beginning, are Bet, Resh, and Alef. It starts with the letter Bet (build a house and they will come).

Alef is an ox or strength, bet means house or tent = the strength of the tent, which is the Father, or AB(ABBA phonetically).

Next is Resh, which means head, where we get bar or SON. So you could say the strength of the tent is the Father, the head/authority is the Son.

Shin means teeth or destroying.

Yod is next and means an arm or hand, doing works.

Next is a Tau, which looks like a cross. What you see is a picture of Him destroying Himself on a cross. This is more visible when you see the paleo Hebrew letters.

Note that Alef Tau is in the word for beginning. He is the Alpha and the Omega. And the Alef and the Resh combine to make the word for fire.

In beginning, HaShem created the heavens and the earth. Since the word for beginning can also mean firstfruits, then it could be read this way with wisdom. In the firstfruits, HaShem created the heavens/mind of Spirit, and the earth/glorified body, better known as the body of the Son.

He declared the end from the beginning. The Jews missed Him because they were looking for a conquering king not a suffering servant, even though that aspect of Him was in plain sight in the text also. Most of the Christians are missing His appearing for the same reason this time around. They are looking for a conquering king to come to them first, instead of a suffering servant. But we must die with Him to resurrect with Him, and you can't resurrect without dying.

As for the "filthy, rotten seat of David", it is a part of His fulfillment of all things, so if you have a problem with that, then perhaps you have a problem with Him that no amount of New Age rhetoric is going to salve or cover? NOTHING done is secret will not be brought out into the light. Again, I say, change your robes while you still have time. Peace

It's not my problem, it's a fact the Jesus is Lord of all the earth, not king of the Jews. His kingdom is spiritual, pervading all mankind, not merely one nation.

Jesus was new age, he inaugurated a new dispensation, it was the closed minded right wing fanatics that rejected his Liberal gospel. Jesus, aka Christ Michaels rightful place is on high where his true seat is.

When the Hebrews rewrote the history of the Israelites, they left the Jews in a state of confusion about their place in the world.

 

[Caino]

Religious and racial pride is what blinds the so called Israelites not God.

 

[RBBI]

Religious and racial pride is what blinds the so called Israelites not God.

You mean of the sort that hangs on stubbornly to New Age doctrines from demonic sources? Everything they have is a counterfeit or mimicking of the reality of something God has provided for His people, through His Spirit. If I get time I'll read your book and show you what has been counterfeited. There is ONE original. Satan cannot create anything, there is nothing new under the sun, he can only mimic. I understand what you hunger for, but it is not found where you are looking.

Jhn 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with heir eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

 

[Caino]

You mean of the sort that hangs on stubbornly to New Age doctrines from demonic sources? Everything they have is a counterfeit or mimicking of the reality of something God has provided for His people, through His Spirit. If I get time I'll read your book and show you what has been counterfeited. There is ONE original. Satan cannot create anything, there is nothing new under the sun, he can only mimic. I understand what you hunger for, but it is not found where you are looking.

Jhn 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with heir eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

Jews trying to explain why their kinfolks broke the covenant, rejected the answer to Abrams faith, killed the Son and failed to deliver on the false prophecies. They had the gall to blame God! On the one hand, the Son of God on earth was trying to reach the Jews while they claim the Father was working against the cause by blinding them. :doh:


Satan is gone as well as the demonic boogeymen under your bed. Jesus already rebuked that idiotic scapegoat.

 

[freelight]

The first 10 or 12 papers......

The first 10 or 12 papers......

You mean of the sort that hangs on stubbornly to New Age doctrines from demonic sources? Everything they have is a counterfeit or mimicking of the reality of something God has provided for His people, through His Spirit. If I get time I'll read your book and show you what has been counterfeited. There is ONE original. Satan cannot create anything, there is nothing new under the sun, he can only mimic. I understand what you hunger for, but it is not found where you are looking.

To the bold above,...the first 12 papers are a good start for its fundamental theology of 'God', the 'universe', his relationship with individuals, the Paradise Trinity, the Isle of Paradise, the Universe of universes, etc. - a good online study edition is here (index) - also see OP and thru-out the thread. Each paper is not that long really.

I dont find much of a difference between a traditional-orthodox Judeo-Christian description of 'God' and what the UB presents, except the latter expands and enhances on such in a greater cosmological context, with a few other nuances perhaps. However the core essential of God's nature and character is universally true.

 

[RBBI]

Jews trying to explain why their kinfolks broke the covenant, rejected the answer to Abrams faith, killed the Son and failed to deliver on the false prophecies. They had the gall to blame God! On the one hand, the Son of God on earth was trying to reach the Jews while they claim the Father was working against the cause by blinding them. :doh:


Satan is gone as well as the demonic boogeymen under your bed. Jesus already rebuked that idiotic scapegoat.

It is what it is. He hardened Pharoah's heart as well. He is the Most High and He does what He wants, when He wants, with who He wants and He doesn't need our approval or even our understanding to do it. Grasping that fact allows you to view it from the perspective of the potter, not the clay we are so familiar with.

Would that HaSatan was already gone. The Head overcame, but the body has to follow suit. If you don't already know he's real, you will eventually as a by-product of what you have dabbled in. I only hope you don't wait until it's too late.