The Israel-Palestine conflict: a brief, simple history

[SonOfCaleb]

This is utter nonsense. I'll explain:
Jews are Jews. Mostly of the tribe of Judah (where the term comes from). Semites. Those Jews who lived in exile in western Europe were called Ashkenazi Jews because of where thet lived- not because of their ethnic identification. Sephardi Jews are those who lived in Sepharad, i.e., Spain.

Thats irrelavent to my point as the Ashkenazi 'Jews' are not Jewish either by blood, race or lineage which WAS my point. NONE of them can trace, nor provide any proof of lineage as purported Jews simply because A) They're not Jewish and B) They cant and dont trace their line to Judah. If you've even bothered to read Genesis the Ashkenaz tribe came via the line of Japheth therefore they arent Jews and therefore arent Semitic.

Genesis 10:1-3 "10 This is the history of Noah’s sons, Shem, Ham, and Jaʹpheth.
Sons were born to them after the Flood. 2 The sons of Jaʹpheth were Goʹmer, Maʹgog, Maʹda·i, Jaʹvan, Tuʹbal, Meʹshech, and Tiʹras.
3 The sons of Goʹmer were Ashʹke·naz, Riʹphath, and To·garʹmah.

The name the Ashkenazi is from the man called Ashkenaz as described in Genesis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews

Etymology

The name Ashkenazi derives from the biblical figure of Ashkenaz, the first son of Gomer, son of Khaphet, son of Noah, and a Japhetic patriarch in the Table of Nations (Genesis 10)

And, by the way, at least half of the Jews in Israel today trace their ancestry to Spain, North Africa, Iran or

Again irrelavent. Theres not a single Jew who can provide ANY evidence of any purported lineage back to the original Jews as all the records on lineage which were kept in the Temple in Jerusalem were destroyed in 70CE. The reality is most of the inhabitants of Israel today are NOT Jewish. Certainly not by blood or lineage.

Jews are Semitic. Hebrew is a West Semitic language.

Hmmm i said that already in my previous post.......

 

[chair]

Thats irrelavent to my point as the Ashkenazi 'Jews' are not Jewish either by blood, race or lineage which WAS my point. NONE of them can trace, nor provide any proof of lineage as purported Jews simply because A) They're not Jewish and B) They cant and dont trace their line to Judah. If you've even bothered to read Genesis the Ashkenaz tribe came via the line of Japheth therefore they arent Jews and therefore arent Semitic.

Genesis 10:1-3 "10 This is the history of Noah’s sons, Shem, Ham, and Jaʹpheth.
Sons were born to them after the Flood. 2 The sons of Jaʹpheth were Goʹmer, Maʹgog, Maʹda·i, Jaʹvan, Tuʹbal, Meʹshech, and Tiʹras.
3 The sons of Goʹmer were Ashʹke·naz, Riʹphath, and To·garʹmah.

The name the Ashkenazi is from the man called Ashkenaz as described in Genesis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews






Again irrelavent. Theres not a single Jew who can provide ANY evidence of any purported lineage back to the original Jews as all the records on lineage which were kept in the Temple in Jerusalem were destroyed in 70CE. The reality is most of the inhabitants of Israel today are NOT Jewish. Certainly not by blood or lineage.




Hmmm i said that already in my previous post.......

This is simply untrue. Yes, the name "Ashkenaz" comes from the Biblical name in Genesis. It was used by JEWS to refer to Germany in the Middle Ages. There are no records, besides oral tradition. Nobody has written records going back that far. However, genetic testing has shown that both Sepharadi and Ashkenazi Jews have common roots in the Middle East.

Please read up on this, and not just from anti-Jewish sites.

 

[chair]

Yes and Judaism has no inheritance in Gods Kingdom.

It is all a fraud.

The Jews lived alongside Arabs and Jews for centuries until the Ashkenazies came.

There are many Jews in the world who are against the nation they called Israel in the middle east.

In fact, the Jews were the first terrorists, and they killed the Christian villages.

People should read the history instead of being so gullible and able to be deceived by men much smarter than themselves.

LA

More nonsense. Please read up on this. And not just from anti-Jewish sites.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

This is simply untrue. Yes, the name "Ashkenaz" comes from the Biblical name in Genesis. It was used by JEWS to refer to Germany in the Middle Ages. There are no records, besides oral tradition. Nobody has written records going back that far. However, genetic testing has shown that both Sepharadi and Ashkenazi Jews have common roots in the Middle East.

Please read up on this, and not just from anti-Jewish sites.

DNA or 'Genetic Testing' apart from being mostly an arbitary pseudo science is meaningless here as it still doesnt support your position. Wether you want to accept it or not the reality is the Ashkenaz simply arent 'Jewish'. They're European. I know thats a difficult idea for you to accept as it conflicts with your ideaological position.

Now tell me why would the Jews use the name of ancient patriarch from the Torah to describe Teutons from Germany?

And for the record i dont visit 'anti-Jewish' sites as you've fallaciously claimed. My source is the Bible in the book of Genesis which is pretty clear to me.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

More nonsense. Please read up on this. And not just from anti-Jewish sites.

And yet despite being provided with an abundance of evidence and sources you're completely incapable of disputing historical facts that clearly dont accord with your disposition.

 

[chair]

...

Now tell me why would the Jews use the name of ancient patriarch from the Torah to describe Teutons from Germany?

...

They identified Rome as Edom as well. It is fact that they did so. The genealogies in Genesis are meant to represent nations, so they made the identification- right or wrong. The Hebrew word for Spain, Sepharad, is also from the Bible. So what?

But all of that is irrelevant. It was their name for the country they lived in, not their ethnic identification. What is so difficult to follow? It is like saying "French Jews" or "German Jews" or "Moroccan Jews" . They are all ethnically Jewish, though they lived in different lands.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

They identified Rome as Edom as well. It is fact that they did so. The genealogies in Genesis are meant to represent nations, so they made the identification- right or wrong. The Hebrew word for Spain, Sepharad, is also from the Bible. So what?

Thanks for confirming what i already know. You have no evidence to support your claim.

But all of that is irrelevant. It was their name for the country they lived in, not their ethnic identification. What is so difficult to follow? It is like saying "French Jews" or "German Jews" or "Moroccan Jews" .

Correct your point is irrelavent as you seem incapable of understanding my point which is not about the NAME you claim was used by Jews to identify Germany. This really isnt hard to follow. Ergo the Jews referred to the German Teutons as Ashkenaz because they were NOT Jewish, which accords with the Torahs table of Nations as Japheth was the original progenitor of European peoples which the Jews recognised.

They are all ethnically Jewish, though they lived in different lands.

And that mon frere is my point. Your difficulty in accepting the Ashkenaz aren't Jewish is because you have ZERO evidence that you can possibly provide to prove they are. Secular history doesnt agree with you. Neither does the Torah or the Bible. I suggest you read the works of Miko Peled a well known Jewish academic who has debunked this myth in his literature and in many of his talks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOaxAckFCuQ

But i doubt you will after all in the immortal words of Cypher from Matrix "Ignorance is bliss".

 

[beameup]

I believe that the Scriptures would indicate that Jews have been scattered to virtually every country on the planet. I know that there is a synagogue in Makati, Metro-Manila, Philippines, as they met with the new Philippine president a few months ago. I believe that immigration records would show that Jews have returned to Israel from about 200 countries, so far.

 

[chair]

Thanks for confirming what i already know. You have no evidence to support your claim...

Let's start from the beginning. Define what you think a "Jew" is. Then maybe I will have some idea of how to show you that the Jews in Europe were exactly that. Jews in Europe.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

Let's start from the beginning. Define what you think a "Jew" is. Then maybe I will have some idea of how to show you that the Jews in Europe were exactly that. Jews in Europe.

After mulltiple interchanges for you to ask that question demonstrates you havent been paying attention or you dont understand what im saying.

A Jew is a person who can trace their lineage to the line of Judah. The Ashkenaz cannot do this as the are a Japhetic people and are not Semitic EG of the line of Shem who Judah could trace his lineage to.

Ashkenaz was the name Jewish scholars used to describe the Teutons or Europeans who inhabited Germany. It was not as you erronenously claim an arbitary name used to describe European Jews.

And its ok dont bother wasting your time to show me anything as theres simply no evidence you can provide. Ive provided you with ample evidence that you've either ignored, dodged, or simply arent interested in. The historical record and the Bible is very clear on who the Ashkenaz were. I get it you think the Ashkenaz are Jewish. Whilst I know as a VERIFIABLE FACT they're not.

 

[chair]

I get it you think the Ashkenaz are Jewish. Whilst I know as a VERIFIABLE FACT they're not.

Nobody can prove with written documents that they are really Irish, or French or Italian since 100 generations ago. You have set an absurdly high level of proof required.

So...you have people in Germany, who have a different language, dress differently, have a different religion, call themselves Jews- yet since they can't "prove" it, you say they are really plain old Germans that are pretending to be Jews (why exactly is not clear. It was not exactly advantageous to claim you are a Jew). All of this based on the fact that Jews referred to Germany as Ashkenaz, right out of the Bible.

Consider the part in Italics as evidence. If you need me to point you to a Wikipedia article explaining about Yiddish, then I will do so.. Though I imagine that the Wikipedia isn't reliable. After all, see what they have to say about Ashkenazi Jews,. Maybe the Encyclopedia Britannica? No- they must be in on the plot as well.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

Nobody can prove with written documents that they are really Irish, or French or Italian since 100 generations ago.

Whilst this is true you seem to be unaware of the VITAL importance of the establishment of lineage for the Jews. The lineages for the Jews were kept within a holy place, the Temple.
They were records that were allowed by any Jew to inspect to confirm their 'LEGAL' claim to inheritances as set out in the Mosaic Law by Moses. These same Lineages were also used to arbitrate over legal disputes such as land, borders, or territory.
The actual purpose of the lineage though was to provide a definitive PROOF that could be traced directly from Adam the first man, right down to Christ via the line of Judah which was prophesied by the various prophets that were sent to 'Israel'.

Jesus was described as the twig of Jesse (King Davids father). Or the Lion of Judah. Hence he was rightly called a son of David as David traced his line right back to Judah. Its interesting to note that historically the Pharisees never once disputed Jesus authenticity to the Judaic line as they had access to the temple to inspect the records themself which they would have done promptly to verify Jesus authenticity.
Thus it was clear to them that Jesus was of the tribe of Judah, of which they were also aware that the Messiah could only come from that line and NEVER via any of the other 11 tribes.

Therefore by your unawareness of the importance of the lineages and why they're recorded in both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures your comparison is invalid. As A) The lineages were written down in order to provide empirical proof as to the Messiahs origin in line with prophecy which harmonizes across the entire Bible B) If the lineages didnt exist the legitmacy of the Jewish faith and even the Mosaic Law would be called into question. Thus of all the people on this planet only the Jews recorded this important information as it was vital for the identificaton of the Messiah who was SENT TO THE JEWS.

You understate the importance of the Jewish lineage because you're oblivious to their importance along with their history.

Regardless as per the Torah the Ashkenaz were Japhetic. Thus on a religious basis any claim by ANY so called Ashkenaz Jew is fraudulent as they're clearly not Jewish which the Torah identifys. You continue to be confused because despite being told more than once the appelation the Jews used for the Teutons was not to describe Jews in Germany. It was used to DESCRIBE GERMAN PEOPLES. The Jewish academics of the Middle Ages used the term Ashkenaz because they were familiar with the table of Nations and the lineages in the Torah hence why they used the name Ashkenaz to describe Germans as the table of Nations in the Torah showed Europeans peoples to be of the Japhetic line.

I suggest you really educate yourself on the history here as its really quite evident you don't have much of a clue what you're talking about apart from dogmatically sticking to your position despite the glaring lack of evidence to support it.

 

[chair]

Whilst this is true you seem to be unaware of the VITAL importance of the establishment of lineage for the Jews. The lineages for the Jews were kept within a holy place, the Temple...

I highly doubt that every single Jew in the first century had a complete written lineage back to Adam in the temple.

In any case, even if they did, the Temple and any such records were destroyed in 70 AD. Therefore...there are no Jews anymore? Anywhere?

 

[SonOfCaleb]

I highly doubt that every single Jew in the first century had a complete written lineage back to Adam in the temple.

What you doubt frankly doesnt matter as secular history along with Jewish tradition is replete with evidence/proof of the lineages for each individual tribe, along with the Bible and the Torah. There's plenty of extant material from the time of Josephus in 1AD that covers this.

In any case, even if they did, the Temple and any such records were destroyed in 70 AD. Therefore...there are no Jews anymore? Anywhere?

You've conflated two things here. My point was about the Ashkenaz not being a semitic, Jewish line. And was not about the existence of Jews within the diaspora. The Jewish diaspora started very early. 607BCE to be precise. Thriving Jewish communitys existed in Babylon and Egypt for example long before Jesus birth. Those same communitys and many more existed well into 1AD the Apostle Peter being noted for his stay in Babylon where he likely wrote his letters.

That diaspora after the second destruction of the temple is now global.

It stands to reason Jews obviously still exist in the looser religious sense. But by blood or lineage its impossible for any Jew to prove their lineage and thus authenticity as an ancestor of the tribe of Judah. So even the claims of the so called Jews of Israel are effectively spurious. Which in turn means their legal claim to the Land of Israel on 'Judaic religious' grounds is also spurious.

 

[beameup]

It stands to reason Jews obviously still exist in the looser religious sense. But by blood or lineage its impossible for any Jew to prove their lineage and thus authenticity as an ancestor of the tribe of Judah. So even the claims of the so called Jews of Israel are effectively spurious. Which in turn means their legal claim to the Land of Israel on 'Judaic religious' grounds is also spurious.

The 144,000 in Revelation are clearly identified as Jews. Not only that,
but they are even identified by TRIBE (12,000 from each TRIBE).

Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie;
behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. - Revelation 3:9

 

[chair]

...Which in turn means their legal claim to the Land of Israel on 'Judaic religious' grounds is also spurious.

How many British citizens can "prove" their ancestry?
And what exactly is the claim of US citizens to their country?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Thanks for confirming what i already know. You have no evidence to support your claim.



Correct your point is irrelavent as you seem incapable of understanding my point which is not about the NAME you claim was used by Jews to identify Germany. This really isnt hard to follow. Ergo the Jews referred to the German Teutons as Ashkenaz because they were NOT Jewish, which accords with the Torahs table of Nations as Japheth was the original progenitor of European peoples which the Jews recognised.



And that mon frere is my point. Your difficulty in accepting the Ashkenaz aren't Jewish is because you have ZERO evidence that you can possibly provide to prove they are. Secular history doesnt agree with you. Neither does the Torah or the Bible. I suggest you read the works of Miko Peled a well known Jewish academic who has debunked this myth in his literature and in many of his talks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOaxAckFCuQ

But i doubt you will after all in the immortal words of Cypher from Matrix "Ignorance is bliss".

Secular history wants to remove all biblical history. Egyptology is the clock of all time stamps and though they have found sites that correspond to biblical account of the Semites that lived in Egypt as slaves, they have moved the timeline of the Pharo and findings to blur their purpose there.

When you fight against the validity of literal Israel, you are fighting against the validity of scripture.

Do you believe in the validity of scripture or not?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I highly doubt that every single Jew in the first century had a complete written lineage back to Adam in the temple.

In any case, even if they did, the Temple and any such records were destroyed in 70 AD. Therefore...there are no Jews anymore? Anywhere?

Does this mean if we destroy SonOfCalebs birth papers, he doesn't exist anymore?

(Evil grin)

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

What you doubt frankly doesnt matter as secular history along with Jewish tradition is replete with evidence/proof of the lineages for each individual tribe, along with the Bible and the Torah. There's plenty of extant material from the time of Josephus in 1AD that covers this.



You've conflated two things here. My point was about the Ashkenaz not being a semitic, Jewish line. And was not about the existence of Jews within the diaspora. The Jewish diaspora started very early. 607BCE to be precise. Thriving Jewish communitys existed in Babylon and Egypt for example long before Jesus birth. Those same communitys and many more existed well into 1AD the Apostle Peter being noted for his stay in Babylon where he likely wrote his letters.

That diaspora after the second destruction of the temple is now global.

It stands to reason Jews obviously still exist in the looser religious sense. But by blood or lineage its impossible for any Jew to prove their lineage and thus authenticity as an ancestor of the tribe of Judah. So even the claims of the so called Jews of Israel are effectively spurious. Which in turn means their legal claim to the Land of Israel on 'Judaic religious' grounds is also spurious.

The Azkanazi fled persecution during the Holocaust. Funny how you would desire to strip them of their Jewish history. National Geographic even recognizes the Azkanazi as Semites, and they teach evolution.

What's the deal SOC?

 

[SonOfCaleb]

How many British citizens can "prove" their ancestry?
And what exactly is the claim of US citizens to their country?

Seeing as you have a 'strong' opinion on the matter i seem to have made the wrong presumption that you are at least au fait with the unique history of Palestine/Israel that led to creation of the Nation State of Israel after WWII. It would appear i'm wrong as your simple assumptions and retorts indicate you're unaware of the uniqueness of Israels current existence post WWII which while political were also established on religious grounds Judaic and Christian. The catalytic events of that era by the British, the Americans and the Zionist 'big finance' (bankers) were the political machinary and financiers behind and in the lead up to the creation of Israel. No other nation or country on Earth as im sure you're aware has ever been established on religious grounds.

Thus your question is devoid of context unfortunately because of your ignorance on the subject matter. I can write a fairly long post setting the accurate context for you as to why Israels creation and quasi-religious claim to the Land of Israel is spurious from a religious point of view, but im not certain that would be a good use of my time as your position is quite clear on the matter.