I do not know your Romans reference, what it is.
A lost person may become found or saved.
Salvation is not by works. I do not know what you mean by eternal or maintain.
I do not know what you mean by the role of works.
Shalom.
Jacob
The house of Israel and the house of Judah.
- Thread starter Jacob
- Start date
A lost person may become found or saved.
Salvation is not by works. I do not know what you mean by eternal or maintain.
I do not know what you mean by the role of works.
Shalom.
Jacob
iouae
Well-known member
This is what God commanded...
Exo 20:8
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9
Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
It is like a Boss commanding one thing, and you just decide to give Him another, because you, Right Divider, think your idea is better.
If you keep all days equally, then no single day is holy. They are all equally profane, and for your use.
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Right Divider
Body part
I believe the ENTIRE Bible.
Exod 31:12-18 (AKJV/PCE)
(31:12) ¶ And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, (31:13) Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it [is] a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that [ye] may know that I [am] the LORD that doth sanctify you. (31:14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it [is] holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth [any] work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. (31:15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh [is] the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth [any] work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. (31:16) Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, [for] a perpetual covenant. (31:17) It [is] a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. (31:18) ¶ And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
The LORD gave the Sabbaths to a certain people. It was a sign between the LORD and the children of Israel. That is what the BIBLE says.
You need to read and understand the entire Bible.
iouae
Well-known member
God rested on the Sabbath, setting the example for Adam and mankind. There was no Jewish nation then.
Jesus says the same. Mar 2:27
And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man,...
...not just for the Jews, or Israel. It was given as part of the 613 to Israel, because Israel belongs to the universal set "man".
iouae
Well-known member
I checked out Eph 5 and could not find where Adam and Eve were a picture of Christ and the church.
I did find this...
Eph 5:31
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Adam did not leave his father and mother, so I think this is a general metaphor that Christ and the church is similar to a marriage.
BTW we are not the ACTUAL bride of Christ, but we are LIKE a bride to Christ.
beloved57
Well-known member
Its there but its a great mystery to many !
Right Divider
Body part
A few DOTS to HIDE truth of what THAT scripture is actually talking about. So typical...
Mark 2:23-28 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:23) And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. (2:24) And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? (2:25) And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him? (2:26) How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him? (2:27) And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: (2:28) Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Jesus was using a language construct called a GENERALIZATION in verse 27. These men of Israel were breaking the Sabbath law, but the LORD allowed it for their need to eat. THAT is what that passage is talking about. The LORD allowed king David and his men to do basically the same thing.
iouae
Well-known member
Jesus was the one who gave the 10C at Sinai, and Jesus was the God who rested on the Sabbath after creating everything in Genesis 1. So, as the author of the 10C, and it was Jesus finger who wrote them, He should know what He meant when He gave them.
And Jesus did not find His disciples to be breaking the Sabbath by reaching out for some corn and eating it.
Thus Jesus was not allowing anyone to break the Sabbath. He was allowing them to do what was perfectly within what He had in mind, if not what the Pharisees had in mind.
The Pharisees were like you or I telling Shakespeare what he meant when he wrote "‘Cry “havoc!” and let slip the dogs of war’".
iouae
Well-known member
Jesus never broke the Sabbath commandment, nor encouraged anyone to do so. He would have gone against His own words, and would not have been a sinless lamb, if He had done so.
Mat 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Right Divider
Body part
Yes... and the LORD gave the Sabbath to Israel, just like the scripture says. Why do you have a problem with that scripture?
And this statement does not refer to the Mosaic law.
No one person could keep all the precepts of the Mosaic law.
Some precepts applied to men, some to women, some to Levites.
No one person was all three.
I have read that Christ is the King of Israel. Israel being the people of God.
That's the way it has always been.
iouae
Well-known member
Hi Jamie
I have been trying to show that the Sabbath, although included in the Mosaic law given to Israel, predated the Mosaic law because it was given to all men at creation. It also stands outside the OC, although included in the OC. It was written with the finger of God, so has some pre-eminence.
It was kept by God Himself, who does not belong to any particular nation.
It was kept by all Christians in Acts as the Gospel spread to the Gentiles because churches met on the Sabbath. There is no change to Sunday in Acts. There is no sign that the early Christian church considered it part of the law which they were no longer under.
I have tried to point out to Right Divider that the Sabbath was given to man, the day After Adam was created, before there was any nation. Thus it was not given to the Jews alone. And Jesus reiterated this in Mar 2:27
And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man,.
Second, Christ and all the Apostles continued keeping the Sabbath, Paul even telling Gentiles to come back the following Sabbath to hear more. Act 13:42
And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Third, I have shown him that Christ neither broke the Sabbath, nor rescinded it.
The only reason the Sabbath is not kept was because the church went apostate. It was changed to Sunday by an apostate church, on flimsy grounds that Christ was resurrected on a Sunday. Well if Christ was crucified on a Friday, why not make that the Sabbath by the same reasoning.
Heb 4:9
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. The word for "rest" being "Sabbath rest" in the Gk. And the "people of God" includes Gentiles.
I have shown that the Gentile nations will keep the annual Sabbaths when Christ returns, so they will also keep the weekly one. Zec 14:16
Jesus was criticised by the Jews for healing on the Sabbath, but that was just their "tradition of men" which made Sabbath keeping ridiculously strict. Christ kept the Sabbath, but not Pharisaically. And Christians are followers of Christ.
The only reason the Sabbath is not kept today is because the Reformation has not gone far enough.
Right Divider
Body part
God chose Israel from among all of the people on the earth. They are the descendants of Jacob and not some mystical "all believers".
That's what the Bible says.
Some people associate Matthew 5:17 with the law given through Moses and claim Mosaic law was fulfilled.
My point was that Christ did not end the law of Moses, rather he expanded it beyond the Pharisaic teachings.
Jesus' resurrection on the day after the Sabbath was according to Leviticus 23:15.
Jesus was the wave offering of the firstfruits.
God gave the Jews forty years to convert to the apostolic teachings before destroying the Pharisaic religion.
Scripture demonstrates that the first day of creation was a work day.
"Then God said, 'Let there be light' and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good and God divided the light from the darkness. God called the light Day and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day." (Genesis 1:3-5)
Christ validated this by writing "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it." (Exodus 20:11)
What God hallows cannot be unhallowed by man.
Epoisses
New member
The Sabbath was a shadow that pointed forward to the 'rest' only found in Christ.
Paul's understanding of 'law' was the entire law or the Torah not the ten commandments only as SDA and others teach.
Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. Gal. 4:21,22
Paul understood law to be the first five books of Moses because the story of Abraham and his two sons comes from Genesis and the law was not given to Israel until Exodus. Believers are not under any aspect of the OT law.
Paul's understanding of 'law' was the entire law or the Torah not the ten commandments only as SDA and others teach.
Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. Gal. 4:21,22
Paul understood law to be the first five books of Moses because the story of Abraham and his two sons comes from Genesis and the law was not given to Israel until Exodus. Believers are not under any aspect of the OT law.
iouae
Well-known member
I presume that Paul was not a hypocrite. If he preached that "Believers are not under any aspect of the OT law" then he would have lived what he preached.
If the Sabbath was nullified by Paul himself then surely Paul would have preached the gospel any day of the week, with no preference for the sabbath such as described here...
Act 17:2
And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures.
And Paul was just keeping the Sabbath with Sabbath keepers here, because he wanted to teach them they were no longer under the law....
Act 13:13
Now when Paul and his company loosed from Paphos, they came to Perga in Pamphylia: and John departing from them returned to Jerusalem.
Act 13:14
But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
And after instructing the Jews that they are no longer under the law, the Gentiles want to hear more, so Paul has the perfect opportunity to say, "Well see you tomorrow, Sunday, since all days of the week are now alike". That should be the case, but what do we see?
Act 13:42
And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Act 13:43
Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
Act 13:44
And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
Is this a one-off or does Paul have a pattern of hypocrisy, preaching against the law, and the Sabbath, yet secretly keeping it?
Act 16:13
And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
Act 16:14
And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us:
Paul, the great law-looser sure has a strange way of behaving for one who says we are no longer bound to the Sabbath.
Act 18:4
And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
Even the Greeks are forced to keep the Sabbath to hear Paul.
And if Paul preached against law keeping, the annual, Jewish Sabbaths would have been out of the question for Paul, since these were even iffier twigs of the law.
Act 18:21
But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.
Could Paul possibly still, as a hypocrite be keeping the Jewish Feast of Pentecost?
Act 20:16
For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.
Not only does Paul want to keep these feast days, he wants to keep them in Jerusalem, where they were commanded to be kept.
And when Paul gets to Jerusalem, he finds that he has a reputation for doing away with the law.
Act 21:21
And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
Here is the perfect opportunity for Paul to say that he, as a born again believer is no longer under the OC law.
But what does Paul do? He goes to the temple and joins with Jews implementing an OC vow.
Act 21:22
What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
Act 21:23
Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
Act 21:24
Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Woah!! Hold your whole team of horses. Did I read that right that the great preacher against the law "walketh orderly, and keepest the law"?
So Paul goes through some OC ritual with these law keepers, to make a point that he DOES, HIMSELF keep the law.
But all is not lost, because read the next verse where it seems that Paul keeps the law, but Gentiles don't have to.
Act 21:25
As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
Well there we have it. Gentiles only have the OT-lite version of the law.
So everything that Paul wrote against the law was pure hypocrisy, because Paul kept the law himself, to the letter, yet told Gentiles they don't need to.
In case you missed it, I was being a little facetious.
Epoisses
New member
Paul often witnessed and preached on the Sabbath because the Jews met on that day.
He rebuked the Galatians for keeping days, months, times and years aka Sabbaths, New Moons, Feast days and Sabbatical years.
It's not that those things are inherently bad but they are a pathway back to the law.
Some may argue that Sunday, Easter and Christmas are pagan but I have yet to meet a single Christian who was ever led into paganism by keeping Sunday, Easter or Christmas.
I have met many Christians on the other hand who started keeping Sabbath and were led into some kind of Messianic or Judaizing religion and cast off all pretence of Christianity.
iouae
Well-known member
Sadly, what you say above, is often true.
However, if one is going to go to church, why not do it on the only day commanded in scripture, the Sabbath?
And if one is going to spend time with God, why not do it on the only day commanded to do so in scripture, the Sabbath?
And were you referring to this verse?
Col 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
This verse could be used by Sabbath keepers, who were being judged by the outside world, and persecuted. It was folks keeping the Sabbath who ended up in the Roman arena in the first century.