The house of Israel and the house of Judah.

[Right Divider]

Jacob, Christians have a lot to do with the 1050 NT commands.

I feel that most Christians want to move their Christianity to another, higher level at times.

What some choose to do is go the OT rules, and sacred names route, where Jesus becomes Yeshua etc.

I say this as someone who is a Sabbath keeper, OT feast keeper, clean and unclean food keeper. But these leftovers from the OT are what Jesus did, that's why I do them. And I love and enjoy keeping these few laws. There were very many of the 613 which Christ is not mentioned as doing. These I tend to ignore.

At the end of the day, even the strictest believer that they "keep the commandments" only keep a select few.

So you just pick and choose however you like? Whatever makes you feel good?

Several of the "OT feasts" require a trip to Jerusalem every year; how are you doing with that?

 

[iouae]

So you just pick and choose however you like? Whatever makes you feel good?

Yes, which is exactly what you do. I am just honest about it. And my law keeping is not what makes me righteous. Christ's imputed righteousness makes me righteous.

Several of the "OT feasts" require a trip to Jerusalem every year; how are you doing with that?

Most OT laws require a trip to Jerusalem. For instance, tithes were supposed to be brought to Jerusalem at the three festival times. Did that ever stop TV evangelists from pushing tithing?

I love camping every year at the time of the Feast of Tabernacles. Its a highlight of the year. Going to Jerusalem today, would not improve the experience. When Christ returns, representatives of all nations will go up year by year to keep the Feasts.

Zec 14:16
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles

 

[Right Divider]

Yes, which is exactly what you do. I am just honest about it. And my law keeping is not what makes me righteous. Christ's imputed righteousness makes me righteous.

I don't claim to "keep the laws" that you falsely claim that you do. There is big difference there.

Most OT laws require a trip to Jerusalem. For instance, tithes were supposed to be brought to Jerusalem at the three festival times. Did that ever stop TV evangelists from pushing tithing?

That is completely irrelevant to whether YOU make the trip to Jerusalem. I do get so tired of this sort of childish misdirection that so many here on TOL attempt to use.

I love camping every year at the time of the Feast of Tabernacles. Its a highlight of the year. Going to Jerusalem today, would not improve the experience. When Christ returns, representatives of all nations will go up year by year to keep the Feasts.

The law was NOT about "improving the experience", it was about keeping the law as given by God.

Zec 14:16
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles

Yes, that is a scripture that will be fulfilled in the future. Any point at all to you bringing in to the discussion or is this just another misdirection?

 

[Jacob]

Jacob, Christians have a lot to do with the 1050 NT commands.

I feel that most Christians want to move their Christianity to another, higher level at times.

What some choose to do is go the OT rules, and sacred names route, where Jesus becomes Yeshua etc.

I say this as someone who is a Sabbath keeper, OT feast keeper, clean and unclean food keeper. But these leftovers from the OT are what Jesus did, that's why I do them. And I love and enjoy keeping these few laws. There were very many of the 613 which Christ is not mentioned as doing. These I tend to ignore.

At the end of the day, even the strictest believer that they "keep the commandments" only keep a select few.

Shalom.

God's Commandments are there. He wants us to observe them.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[iouae]

I don't claim to "keep the laws" that you falsely claim that you do. There is big difference there.

I presume that as a Christian, you have some standards, and try to keep at least 9 of the 10 commandments.

Yes, that is a scripture that will be fulfilled in the future. Any point at all to you bringing in to the discussion or is this just another misdirection?

I am showing the continuity of commandment keeping across time.
The Sabbaths were commanded under the OC.
All the apostles and Christ kept the Sabbath.
In the beginning God rested on the Sabbath.
In the Millennium, they keep the Feast of Tabernacles, apparently all nations of the world.

So there is a continuity. I therefore assume Sabbath and Feast keeping has not just been annulled in the 2000 years between Christ's first and second coming.

 

[iouae]

Shalom.

God's Commandments are there. He wants us to observe them.

Shalom.

Jacob

I agree with you. That said, I try not to spread myself too thin by focussing on the 1050 first.

But Jesus and all the Apostles kept OC laws even as Christ emphasised the NC ones.

 

[Jacob]

I agree with you. That said, I try not to spread myself too thin by focussing on the 1050 first.

But Jesus and all the Apostles kept OC laws even as Christ emphasised the NC ones.

I do not see OC laws and NC laws.

I do not know if you are saying that you focus on the 1050 termed new covenant.

 

[Right Divider]

I presume that as a Christian, you have some standards, and try to keep at least 9 of the 10 commandments.

Was murder wrong before the law was given?

I don't follow a list of do's and don'ts, I walk in the Spirit.

I am showing the continuity of commandment keeping across time.
The Sabbaths were commanded under the OC.

The Sabbaths were given to a particular people that God is not currently dealing with since their fall.

All the apostles and Christ kept the Sabbath.

All of the apostles and Christ were Israelite's. They were born under the law.

In the beginning God rested on the Sabbath.

He did; and how is this relevant to the discussion?

In the Millennium, they keep the Feast of Tabernacles, apparently all nations of the world.

We are not in the Millennium.

So there is a continuity. I therefore assume Sabbath and Feast keeping has not just been annulled in the 2000 years between Christ's first and second coming.

That is because you've missing something; and that something is what God is doing today and has been doing since He called the apostle Paul.

 

[iouae]

Was murder wrong before the law was given?

Yes. Cain was condemned by God.

I don't follow a list of do's and don'ts, I walk in the Spirit.

Would the Spirit allow you to go against the 10C?
If God gave the law, and God gave the Spirit, I take it that the one does not fight the other. God gave the Spirit to help us keep the law, not break it.

That is because you've missing something; and that something is what God is doing today and has been doing since He called the apostle Paul.

Christ said things like ...
Mat 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments

Mat 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Paul cannot and does not oppose Christ, just as the Spirit from God does not oppose the law from God.
What Paul emphasises is that (keeping) the law cannot save us. Only Christ can.

 

[Right Divider]

Yes. Cain was condemned by God.

So there are higher principles that the law is based upon.

Would the Spirit allow you to go against the 10C?
If God gave the law, and God gave the Spirit, I take it that the one does not fight the other. God gave the Spirit to help us keep the law, not break it.

The church which is His body is not under the law and has no obligation to keep a day of the week separate from the rest.

Christ said things like ...
Mat 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments

Mat 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Of course He did. Israel was under the law and so was Jesus. (Gal 4:4).

Paul cannot and does not oppose Christ, just as the Spirit from God does not oppose the law from God.
What Paul emphasises is that (keeping) the law cannot save us. Only Christ can.

So you guess that when Paul said that we are not under the law but under grace, he meant just for salvation? No, that is not what he meant.

Eternal life was never based on law keeping of any kind. Salvation is the gift of God.

Rom 6:23 (AKJV/PCE)​

(6:23) For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. ​

 

[iouae]

So there are higher principles that the law is based upon.


The church which is His body is not under the law and has no obligation to keep a day of the week separate from the rest.

Heb 4:9
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God

God rested on the Sabbath as an example for all mankind.
Why do you think God would not want you to devote one day in seven to Him?

Of course He did. Israel was under the law and so was Jesus.

Isn't a Christian a follower of Jesus.

Paul kept the Sabbath, as did the Gentiles wishing to hear him preach.
Act 13:42
And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
TOOLS
Act 13:44
And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

So you guess that when Paul said that we are not under the law but under grace, he meant just for salvation? No, that is not what he meant.

What did Paul mean? Should we or should we not keep, say, the 10C?

Eternal life was never based on law keeping of any kind. Salvation is the gift of God.

That is exactly what I believe, and said.

 

[jamie]

The Sabbaths were given to

Humanity.

However, many people say not your will, but mine be done.

And so it goes.

 

[jamie]

What did Paul mean? Should we or should we not keep, say, the 10C?

God uses the Sabbath command to differentiate those who will obey whatever he asks from those who won't.

 

[Right Divider]

Heb 4:9
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God

The body of Christ are NOT Hebrews.

God rested on the Sabbath as an example for all mankind.
Why do you think God would not want you to devote one day in seven to Him?

God wants all seven days "devoted" to Him.

Isn't a Christian a follower of Jesus.

Not with reference to His earthly ministry to Israel where Paul says that Jesus was "a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers". That does not relate to His body which is seated in heavenly places (Eph 2:6).

Paul kept the Sabbath, as did the Gentiles wishing to hear him preach.
Act 13:42
And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
TOOLS
Act 13:44
And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Paul was also an Israelite who preached to his kinsmen in the flesh at times.

Rom 9:1-5 (AKJV/PCE)​

(9:1) I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, (9:2) That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. (9:3) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: (9:4) Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises; (9:5) Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. ​

Note that Paul, once again, refers to Jesus' relationship with Israel "as concerning the flesh".

What did Paul mean? Should we or should we not keep, say, the 10C?

Why do you have such a fixation on the keeping of commandments?

That is exactly what I believe, and said.

That's good.

Do you somehow think that you're made better by keeping the law? That's what the Galatians thought and Paul corrected their misunderstanding.

 

[Danoh]

Shalom.

I believe that Jesus died for my sins, the same as before. As a Christian I was told that the only commandments to observe were those brought over into the new testament. Saying this it may have been commands rather than commandments, but saying the new testament is ambiguous because this is meaning scripture or the actual covenant or someone's idea or what?

I can unpack any of this if you want me to. But, does that help?

Shalom.

Jacob

So PRIOR TO NOW, you had believed that Jesus died for your sins, AND you believe that NOW.

What did you believe BEFORE about your salvation AFTER you believed that Jesus died for your sins?

BACK THEN, did you believe that He NOT ONLY died for your sins, BUT ALSO, that He rose again because He had FULLY PAID YOUR sin debt?

Or...did you believe BACK THEN AS YOU BELIEVE NOW - that there is something YOU have to KEEP DOING to MAINTAIN YOUR salvation YOURSELF.

What I am trying to do is get clear on those distinctions about YOUR beliefs.

Because over time, I have come to view people as either (1) lost, or (2) still lost AND confused, or (3) saved, or (4) saved and CYRSTAL CLEAR about their salvation, or (5) saved, BUT CONFUSED.

The Apostle Paul was dealing with all those types in his writings TO BELIEVERS.

So I sometime ago decided to at least attempt to get at the bottom of all that with each person I deal with.

This is why, for example, you'll notice that although I might rib you here and there, I never spit on you for what you post.

In the spirit (heart attitude) of the following towards you...

Romans 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

And vice-versa, I'm sure.

Just trying to get clear on all the above about you, J.

Rom. 5:8

 

[Right Divider]

The Sabbaths were given to a particular people that God is not currently dealing with since their fall.

Humanity.

However, many people say not your will, but mine be done.

And so it goes.

Wow jamie, how very dishonest of you to CUT OFF my post mid sentence!

God gave the law of Israel and I know that YOU have a mythological and perverted version of what means.

 

[Jacob]

So BEFORE you had believed that just died for your sins, AND you believe that NOW.

What you believe BEFORE about your salvation AFTER you believed that Jesus died for your sins?

Did you believe THAT He not only died for your sins, but rose again because He had FULLY PAID YOUR sin debt?

Or...did you believe BACK THEN AS YOU BELIEVE NOW - that there is something YOU have to KEEP DOING to MAINTAIN YOUR salvation YOURSELF.

What I am trying to do is get clear on those distinctions about YOUR beliefs.

Because over time, I have come to view people as either (1) lost, or (2) still lost AND confused, or (3) saved, (4) saved and crystal clear about their salvation, or (5) saved, but confused.

The Apostle Paul was dealing with all those types in his writings TO BELIEVERS.

So I sometime ago decided to at least attempt to get at the bottom of all that with each person I deal with.

This is why, for example, you'll notice that although I might rib you here and there, I never spit on you for what you post.

In the spirit(heart attitude) of the following towards you...

Romans 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

And vice-versa, I'm sure.

Just trying to get clear on all the above about you, J.

Rom. 5:8

Shalom.

I do not believe that works are either required for salvation or to maintain salvation. I believe that salvation is by grace through faith and that though it is not by works we are to do good works in obedience to God and Jesus in faith.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[Danoh]

Shalom.

I do not believe that works are either required for salvation or to maintain salvation. I believe that salvation is by grace through faith and that though it is not by works we are to do good works in obedience to God and Jesus in faith.

Shalom.

Jacob

In obedience to God and Jesus for what reason?

Although I think I kind of know the answer to that one at this point.

Thanks for the patience, by the way.

Rom. 14:5; 5:7,8.

 

[Jacob]

In obedience to God and Jesus for what reason?

Although I think I kind of know the answer to that one at this point.

Thanks for the patience, by the way.

Rom. 14:5; 5:7,8.

Are you asking why you should obey God?

Everything that Jesus did was what His Father had Him do. This includes all that He taught.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[Danoh]

Are you asking why you should obey God?

Everything that Jesus did was what His Father had Him do. This includes all that He taught.

Shalom.

Jacob

I was asking why YOU do?

Again, J, I am merely attempting to get a much clearer sense of YOUR understanding of those THREE issues - YOUR understanding of:

1 - HOW does one go from "lost" to "saved."

2 - Is salvation ETERNAL or does one have to MAINTAIN it somehow?

3 - What is the ACTUAL role of WORKS:

a. Either FOR salvation,

b. Or AFTER salvation.

Again, I am merely attempting to get clear on YOUR understanding of all that.

You and I appear to differ in each our respective understanding of some things.

So I am merely attempting to better understand where YOU are coming from.

For only THEN can two people actually have any sort of a meaningful exchange- in others words, an exchange that actually positively impacts the other for the better.

As in this example here...

Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

Rom. 14:5; 5:5:7,8.