The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Kevin
c.moore,

That still doesn't change the fact that WE are to keep the commandments, not Christ.

When Jesus says "If you love Me, keep My commandments." (John 14:15), He's not talking to Himself, He's talking to Phillip. He's telling Phillip that he who keeps His commandments, which cannot be referring to Christ, loves Him.

Quote c.moore
What i mean is to submit to letting jesus work in you and with you, and he will direct, and help you to obey because he knows how to be perfect. How can our blinded carnal flesh lead us.
All we should do is submit, and except God help to do for us .
Jas:4:5: Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
Jas:4:6: But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Jas:4:7: Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Let God bless you

 

[JustAChristian]

Great Post!

Great Post!

Originally posted by Kevin
biblicalanser4u,

Howdy.



That's correct. No man can pluck us from our salvation. Only we (ourselves) can do that, by not following Him.

By the way, are you going to respond to Evangelion in the Dispensation thread?

Kevin,
I commend you for your gallent answers. Keep up the good work!

JustAChristian

 

[Kevin]

JustAChristian,

Thanks for your support! I'm not ready to invest the time to a full debate right now, but that doesn't mean I won't debate him in the future. It's amazing that people actually believe that they can do whatever they want after accepting Christ and still be saved.

I admire your resolve for sticking in here as long as you have. Preach on, brother!

 

[c.moore]

biblicalanser4u

Hey, your doing a good work in speading the truth.
For a long time I was like these people trying to work for my righteousness, and trying to get just and obey all the commandments, but you know what happen?
I started backsliding because I was so condemn when I disobeyed, and I was even afraid to pray any more because I thought I was not worthy in my disobeying.
I thought everytime I miss the mark, I should be kicked out of the kingdom of God, and there was no hope in continued to be a worthy christian. I also thought if I was to be a faithful servant and obey, and with all the believing , and water baptism, and helping others with love, I had no real confidence and real joy and happyness because I was afraid I had not did enough to show God my good works and obedeince.
Always trying to make yourself something on your own , is a struggle , and I was fighting with myself to please God , which was an yoke and A burden for me until I found the truth through reading Ro:5:18: Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Ro:5:19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Anóther scripture that gave me joy again in my christian walk was this:Ro:5:9: Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Ro:5:10: For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Ro:5:11: And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

I seen that we are already now righteous, and just because of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago, and that why I really want to obney even more and celebrate in my christian walk because I am A righteous ,and Just christian already.

Other christian are trying to obey the commandments to make themself righteous, but in doing this they are breaking the commandments already after reading this:Ro:10:3: For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Now this is a powerfull scripture for those trying to do all they can do on their own .

We need to give all to Jesus and submitt to him.

If somebody gave me 100 million dollars, as a gift , and said I don`t have to work to earn this, just recieve and submitt in taking the money, I will always respect that person and would like to know that person more and have a relationship with them , and if they ask me to do them a favor, you will see that I will do what ever they want because they have already brought me from poor to being rich, and this gives me the will to realy be a help with all my heart to serve that person.
people will see my fruits, or light,k because they will see that I am not poor any more, and I will not act any more like I am poor , busted and disgusted. So is the same with salvation ,and the way Of the Lord , because He knows that when we are saved now, or rich now this will inspire us to serve him with joy.
When I have all this money I know I am rich.
The same is when a person believe in his heart, he is saved specially when the person is trusting in Jesus not his own works.

That God I am RICH, and we can help other to get rich or saved by just recieving the free 100 million dollar gifts.


Ain`t that good news praise God??????


God Bless you.

 

[JustAChristian]

Its A Work on Your part And you Can't see It!!

Its A Work on Your part And you Can't see It!!

Originally posted by c.moore
biblicalanser4u

God Bless you.

c.moore,

You contridict yourself when you say one can't be saved by works when your say you would "...submit in taking the money...". Its submitting a work on your part? If not why not?

JustAChristian

 

[biblicalanser4u]

JustaChristian,

You contridict yourself when you say one can't be saved by works when you say you would "...submit in taking the money...". Its submitting a work on your part? If not why not?

Now how do you figure that? If I gave you a million dollars and you take it, thats a gift is it not? You are accepting the gift if you take it. Thats not a work. A work is when there are conditions applied to it. My job for example says it will give me a million dollars but the condition is I need to work for it. That IS NOT a gift!!!!!!!!!! See the difference?

 

[c.moore]

Re: Its A Work on Your part And you Can't see It!!

Re: Its A Work on Your part And you Can't see It!!

Originally posted by JustAChristian


c.moore,

You contridict yourself when you say one can't be saved by works when your say you would "...submit in taking the money...". Its submitting a work on your part? If not why not?

JustAChristian

Quote by c.moore

That why I posted this too biblicalanser4u, because He can understand the spiritual and knows what I am talking about, so there would be no contradictions.1Co:2:14: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

let God bless you
peace

 

[NeoArminian]

Originally posted by Ian Day
John could quite easily have stood in the Jordan and baptised by scooping water in cupped hands to apply to the head of the penitent sinner. It would have made it possible for 3000 people to be baptised on the day of Pentecost without taking over the public water supply. (Courtesy of the Roman & Jewish authorities who had just crucified the one in whose name the baptisms were
taking place!)

I am sorry but you have the chronology ali wrong. John the Baptist was beheaded before Jesus was crucified. Thus John could not have baptised after the crucifiction.

Matthew 14:10-13 And he sent, and beheaded John in the prison. And his head was brought in a charger, and given to the damsel: and she brought it to her mother. And his disciples came, and took up the body, and buried it, and went and told Jesus. When Jesus heard of it, he departed thence by ship into a desert place apart: and when the people had heard thereof, they followed him on foot out of the cities.

Sincerely,
NeoArminian

 

[NeoArminian]

I Corinthians 15

I Corinthians 15

Originally posted by o2bwise
Have you read 1 Cor. 15 where paul clealry explained what the Gospel is? Hint: It has nothing to do with baptism.

I am sorry but I Corinthians 15 really does not support your catabaptist theology because this same chapter you mention also does not say "one must put his faith in Christ in order to recieve GOD's grace" either.

However it does say:

I Corinthians 15 :1-3 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. {keep...: or, hold fast} {what: Gr. by what speech} For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Thus, we known that Paul is referring to "we are saved by GOD's gace through faith in Christ" when he spoke of "the gospel which I preached unto you." However, if we went by your way of antibaptism thinking because of this chapter, one would also be inclined to say "salvation is by grace through faith" has no merit either since it is not directly mentioned here. Both you and I know we would be in serious error on this account.

NeoArminian

 

[NeoArminian]

Originally posted by o2bwise
Now, as to baptism by water, you say it is NOT a part of the gospel. God gave us teachers, evangelists, etc. UNTIL there is no further need for them.

Huh? No further need for them? Why do you suppose then there is so much of the world still unsaved today then?

NeoArminian

 

[c.moore]

biblicalanser4u

If we fight to work out salvation, this would be A labour, and it would be a heavy burden, and A person would be heavy laden.

But when we let jesus work for us , we will find rest, and thank God I found my rest in Jesus, not works that load me down.
This is also biblical.
M't:11:28: Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
M't:11:29: Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
M't:11:30: For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.



Thank God we can just trust Jesus, and all we have to do is just recieve, and this is so light, that most people can`t believe and accept, because the yoke is easy , like just recieving 100 million dollars with out earning your prosperity.

I love your quote when you said:A work is when there are conditions applied to it. My job for example says it will give me a million dollars but the condition is I need to work for it. That IS NOT a gift!!!!!!!!!!

that`s a biblical statement, remember this:Ro:11:6: And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Hey biblicalanser4u what do you think this scripture means to you?

Ro:10:3: For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.


God Bless you
peace

 

[NeoArminian]

"We" In Romas 6:4

"We" In Romas 6:4

Originally posted by o2bfaithful
"We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life." Rom 6:4

An important thing to consider here is who is being referred to as "we" in Romans 6:4. Could we be (A) the apostles and/or disciples living at that time -or- (B) Christ's believers/brethren/saints of all generations? I choose "B."

NeoArminian

 

[JustAChristian]

Ephesians 2:8-9

Ephesians 2:8-9

Originally posted by biblicalanser4u
JustaChristian,



Now how do you figure that? If I gave you a million dollars and you take it, thats a gift is it not? You are accepting the gift if you take it. Thats not a work. A work is when there are conditions applied to it. My job for example says it will give me a million dollars but the condition is I need to work for it. That IS NOT a gift!!!!!!!!!! See the difference?

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

So, God give salvation by his grace. He lays it on the table, and we must pick it up. We never possess it until we take it up. As long as it is on the table, it is offered but not received. We must take it up. We must believe that it is for us. Now if we think we can do enough works of merit to cause God to have to give us mercy, then we decieve ourselves. We can't earn salvation. Salvation will come when we do what God wants done. Jesus says that he rewards those that take it up in obedience (Heb. 5:8-9) I trust God to be faithful to what he has promised. I believe if I remain faithful to his cause, he will be faithful in extending grace. Am I working for it. No, I am just doing what God has asked me to do. Nothing more, nothing less. That makes the difference. He says hear the word (Rom. 10:17), believe in the Son (John 8:24), repent of sins (Acts 17:30-31), be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16), and rise to walk in newness of life (Rom 3:6). Am I working? No, I am obeying.

JustAChristian

JustAChristian

 

[NeoArminian]

Re: Ephesians 2:8-9

Re: Ephesians 2:8-9

Originally posted by JustAChristian
Now if we think we can do enough works of merit to cause God to have to give us mercy, then we decieve ourselves. We can't earn salvation.

True!

As pertaining to our salvation:

1) Faith without works is dead faith.

2) Works without faith is legalism.

3) Faith & works together leads to Holiness.

NeoArminian

 

[c.moore]

hello biblicalanser4u

Now let's consider the textual evidence for Mark 16:9-20. The book I referred to in my earlier post, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, was edited by Bruce Metzger on behalf of and in cooperation with the Editorial Committee of the United Bible Societies' Greek New Testament (Kurt Aland, Matthew Black, Carlo Martini, Bruce Metzger and Allen Wikgren). I assure you these men have impeccable credentials as textual scholars.

In addition to the fact that these verses are absent from the two oldest Greek manuscripts (Sinaiticus & Alexandrinus), the Sinaitic Syriac (of the second/third century), the Old Latin ms k (of the fourth/fifth century), and the earliest Georgian manuscripts...a considerable number of manuscripts that do have this passage have scribal notes stating that older Greek copies lack it, and in other witnesses the passage is marked with asterisks to indicate a spurious addition to a document.

Internal evidence also throws doubt on the originality of these additional verses:

The vocabulary and style are not Markan. The words "does not believe", "hurt", "backed up", "accompanying", "seen", "with", "these", "go", "working with" and "later" are found nowhere else in Mark. And the word "deadly" and expression "those who had been with him", as designations of the disciples, occurs only here in the New Testament.

Further, consider the connection between verse 8 and verses 9-20. The subject of verse 8 is the women, whereas Jesus is the presumed subject in verse 9. In verse 9 Mary Magdalene is identified even though she has been mentioned only a few verses before (15:47 and 16:1). The other women are now forgotten. The use of "After he rose" and the position of "first" (in "appeared first to Mary") are appropriate at the beginning of a narrative, but ill-suited in a continuation of verses 1-8.

The Committee concludes:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In short, all these features indicate that the section was added by someone who knew a form of Mark that ended abruptly with verse 8 and who wished to supply a more appropriate conclusion. In view of the inconsistencies between verses 1-8 and 9-20, it is unlikely that the long ending was composed ad hoc to fill up an obvious gap; it is more likely that the section was excerpted from another document, dating perhaps from the first half of the second century."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why is the ending so abrupt? Metzger suggests that three possibilities are open: (a) Mark intended to close his Gospel at this place; or (b) the Gospel was never finished; or, as seems most probable, (c) the Gospel accidentally lost its last leaf before it was multiplied by transcription.
So to put things very simply, it is clear that the earliest readers of the gospel of Mark in Greek, or of the Syriac, Latin and Georgian translations would consider anything beyond verse 8 as "adding to the Word". There are good reasons to believe they would be right.

Which is a bit disappointing. Because in most instances of fraudulent "powerful works" it is the crippled and sick and blind who are desolated when it turns out the healing is simply an illusion. But show me the preacher who will drink the poison I provide and then there will be something to believe!

what do you think about this, and does Mark belong to the bible??

If anybody else know about this maybe you can explain why christian and other believe that mark 16 does not belong to the bible.
God bless you

 

[c.moore]

Somebody has wrote this to me, to say that Mark is not Holy scripture.
If this is true , then all the quotes saying Mark 16:16 is not true ,and this will destroy the works of water baptism rites.

What do you water baptism people think about this?

Quote from some body else
But the book of Mark was written decades after 2 Timothy. Surely neither Paul nor his audience would have considered it scripture. Or does it mean that anything ever written, past or future, true or false, is to be consdidered scripture?


let God bless you

 

[c.moore]

Still waiting for an answer from somebody from my last posts????

thanks c.moore

 

[JustAChristian]

Is Mark Scriptural?

Is Mark Scriptural?

Originally posted by c.moore
Somebody has wrote this to me, to say that Mark is not Holy scripture.
If this is true , then all the quotes saying Mark 16:16 is not true ,and this will destroy the works of water baptism rites.

What do you water baptism people think about this?

Quote from some body else
But the book of Mark was written decades after 2 Timothy. Surely neither Paul nor his audience would have considered it scripture. Or does it mean that anything ever written, past or future, true or false, is to be consdidered scripture?


let God bless you

C.Moore,

If Mark wasn't scripture then the Holy Spirit would have gotten rid of it a long time ago like he did the book of Thomas. You better quit messing around and get yourself baptized for the remission of sins.

JustAChristian

 

[Kevin]

Does it really matter to you, C.Moore?

Does it really matter to you, C.Moore?

c.moore,

I've heard this argument before. The truth of the matter is that even if you don't accept the last part of the book of Mark, it doesn't prove anything.

Baptism's necessity does not soley rely on Mark 16:16 alone. Does it really matter to you c.moore? Even if you were convinced that the Mark scripture is ligitemate, you still don't believe baptism's necessary, despite it's clear meaning. So why do you ask?

Personally, I just add this to the list of excuses that people use to try to discredit the very clear teachings of the Bible. People just can't deal with the truth sometimes, so they are left with 3 basic choices:

• Pervert the clear meaning of that verse - For example, by looking for the conditions of salvation in the part that speaks about condemnation, while igoring the part of the verse that deals with salvation.
  
• Try to discredit the verse's legitemacy - This can never be fully proven. There's evidence on both sides. The text doesn't appear in some of the manuscripts while it does in others.
  
• Ignore the verse - Sometimes it's easy to pretend like a verse doesn't exist.

To be honest, it's quite pathetic that Mark 16:16 is debated so much like it is. There's no rocket science about that verse. Anybody can see that there are two requirements listed before salvation. The Bible doesn't try to hide them, it says they are belief and baptism. People can either accept what it says, or not accept what it says. Simple.

Let me ask you a question, and you can just answer this to yourself. If you are interested in computers, and you have two books in front of you, one that's about computers and one that is about pottery, which book are you going to read to learn more about computers? Easy question.

Now, if you are interested in salvation, and a verse deals with two things: salvation and condemnation, which part are you going to look at for your answer?

Something tells me that you would choose the book on computers for the purpose of learning more about computers. Sadly, however, something else tells me that you will continue to read the part of the verse that deals with condemnation when you are looking for the answer to salvatioin.

Funny how that works. Basic human reasoning, for the most part, works just fine when we are dealing with worldly things. But for some people, reasoning goes on a vacation when dealing with the clear word of God. Pride is a terrible thing.

 

[NeoArminian]

The Book of Thomas?

The Book of Thomas?

Originally posted by JustAChristian
If Mark wasn't scripture then the Holy Spirit would have gotten rid of it a long time ago like he did the book of Thomas.

Could someone please tell me a little more about this Book of Thomas. This has caught my interest.

NeoArminian