The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

Evangelion

New member
Kevin - the essay cited by Biblicalanser4u was written by Bob Hill - a Dispensationalist.

Bob has posted a pro-Dispensationalist essay (enitled "The Twelve Dispensations") at the TheologyOnline News forum. It's worth reading, if only to "know thine enemy." ;)

One of my mates here at T.O.L. (Jaltus) challenged Bob's thesis, but did not find the time to return and develop his argument. I took up the cudgels on his behalf, presenting Bob with a simple list of simple questions.

That was 'way back on the 30th of the 3rd.

To date, my questions remain unanswered.

:)
 

JustAChristian

New member
Re: this is turning into a fist fight!!!!

Re: this is turning into a fist fight!!!!

Originally posted by biblicalanser4u
Salvation and Babtism!

This is a article that I found but I concur with. If you disagree, you diagree. You can find it here. Biblicalanswers

You are at a gathering of friends. The topic of religion comes up. One of your friends, Mary, says you have to be baptized to be saved. She quotes Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

Mk 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Another friend, John, says you don’t have to be baptized to be saved, but if you became a believer, you would follow the Lord in baptism as an outward sign of an inner work. He quotes Acts 16:31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Then he says “This shows that the only thing a person must do to be saved is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.” Mary disagrees. She shows that water baptism was even necessary in the epistles. She shows you 1 Peter 3:20,21 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us – baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

But John shows you Ephesians 2:8,9. “It is not of works”. He says “Baptism would be a work. Baptism should come after you’re saved, but it doesn’t save you!”

Well, what should you believe? Who is right? Both are right, and both are wrong. Let’s look at the scriptures and see why this is true. The gospel is first proclaimed when John the Baptist begins his ministry. His message was, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Mat 3:2)! He preached “the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins” (Mark 1:3). What? He preached that a person had to be water baptized to be saved? Yes! But let’s look at some important methods of Bible study before we continue:

1. Find out who is speaking.

2. Find out to whom they are speaking.

3. Find out what dispensation it is being said under.

4. Find out where the passage you are considering belongs in the whole picture presented in the Bible.

To whom was John the Baptist sent? It says in John 1:31 that John was sent to Israel, the Jews: “I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water.” Well, that’s pretty clear. John came to Israel to show them that Jesus was the Messiah, the Christ. It was at a time when God was only dealing with the Jews. The method of salvation was repent and be baptized for your sins. This was the message of the kingdom gospel. A dynasty had been promised to King David a thousand years before, in 2 Samuel 7:12, “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.” Luke 16:16 shows when the kingdom gospel, the good news about the kingdom, was first proclaimed. “The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.”

Did Christ and the apostles proclaim the same gospel that John preached? Yes, for it says that they did in Matthew 10:5-10 and Mark 1:14,15.

Mat 10:5-10 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, 10 nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food.

Mk 1:14,15 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”

Now, notice that baptism was linked with this proclamation of the kingdom. The message they proclaimed was the good news of the circumcision (Gal 2:7-9).

How many different kinds of baptism were there when John started his ministry? Only one. Was it necessary for salvation? Yes. We even find Jesus saying to Nicodemus in John 3:5 that if a man wanted to enter into the kingdom of God, he must be born of water and of the Spirit. This requirement of water baptism was in accord with the message John began and the apostles continued after Christ’s resurrection, ascension, and the day of Pentecost. Christ commanded the Eleven in Mark 16:15,16, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.” Peter insisted on the same requirement ten days later in Acts 2:38. “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

We see that it was necessary for them to be water baptized before they would receive the Holy Spirit. So now after Pentecost, with the addition of Holy Spirit baptism, for the first time there were two baptisms. Water baptism was necessary for salvation. Then, Holy Spirit baptism took place. From the context of verses 22 and 39 we see that this happened while God was still dealing with Israel. Peter was only speaking to Israel in 22, and he was referring to God’s promise to Israel in 39.

Next, something very important happened. The Apostle Paul was saved. We will not go into the differences in Paul’s salvation, although it appears that Paul was saved under the same message Peter preached in Acts 2. Acts 22:16 says, “And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.” Because God had started a new dispensation with Paul (Gal 1:11-2:9; Eph 3:1-9), all kinds of different things began to happen. Many dramatic changes took place to show that God had changed dispensations.

1. Peter got a vision in Acts 10 which showed that Israel had been set aside. They were no longer God’s special people because the vision showed the law of clean and unclean animals was set aside (Acts 10:9-16; Lev 20:24-26).

2. Peter was sent to a Gentile and told by the Holy Spirit to doubt nothing (Acts 10:20).

3. The most significant event was a dispensational sign from God that something had changed when Peter went to the Gentiles. When they believed, the Holy Spirit interrupted Peter’s message before Peter could tell them to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. In fact, the Holy Spirit fell on all the Gentiles while Peter was still preaching. The Jews who accompanied Peter were amazed.

What had changed? God had started a new program when He saved Paul. However, since God would only reveal the new message to the Apostle Paul, Peter was still preaching the same message he had always preached (Acts 10:34-43). Let’s review the situation at this point of our investigation.

1. At first there was only one baptism, John’s. It was necessary for salvation.

2. Then things started changing when Paul was saved.

3. The Holy Spirit fell on Gentiles before they were water baptized. Remember, water baptism was a sign to Jews to show Christ to them.

Sometime during his second missionary journey after he had visited Corinth, the Apostle Paul told the body of Christ about the baptisms which they knew of in this manner: “I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius . . . . For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel” (1 Cor 1:14,17 Read in context.). In the same epistle, he wrote, “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body; whether Jews or Greeks” (1 Cor 12:13). So, water baptism had changed from being the only baptism, and necessary for salvation, to a ritual which had faded away.

Next, another very important incident happened. God finished showing Israel that they had been set aside. He had done this in a progressive manner which reached its conclusion in the end of Acts. It started in Acts 13:46, continued in Acts 18:6, and was concluded in Acts 28:28.

After Israel had been shown that they had been set aside, Paul was inspired by God to write Ephesians. In Ephesians 4:3-6, Paul wrote about the unity of the Spirit. He was writing about God’s dealings with Christians today. He wrote, “There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism.” It doesn’t say two baptisms! It says there “is one baptism”? Yes, that’s right. Which one is it then? It must be Spirit baptism since the Holy Spirit is still baptizing and sealing members into the body of Christ (1 Co 12:13).

Well then, we can see that the gospel message started out with one baptism, water. This was necessary for salvation. It progressed to two: water baptism first, then, Holy Spirit baptism. The water baptism was still necessary for salvation. Finally, in this dispensation, it returned to one, Holy Spirit, which is now necessary for salvation. After the rapture of the body of Christ before the tribulation, the circumcision gospel will be in place again, and water baptism will become necessary for salvation again (1 Pet 3:18-22). So, both Mary and John would be right and wrong. Therefore, we must always search the Scriptures to see what is right dispensationally. With this in mind, please answer the following questions:

1. Did John the Baptist preach that a person had to be baptized to be saved?



2. If so, was water baptism ever necessary for salvation?



3. Over what period of time was baptism necessary for salvation?



4. Who preached the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins?



5. What biblical methods of study are especially important to solve apparent contradictions in the Bible?



6. With whom was God dealing when baptism was required for salvation in the New Testament?



7. To whom was John sent with his message?



8. To whom did Christ send the twelve in Matthew 10? Were they supposed to go to the Gentiles?



9. Did Christ ever say that a man had to be baptized? If so, where?



10. After Christ went to heaven, was water baptism still necessary?



11. Did God start a new dispensation with Paul?



12. To whom was Paul sent?



13. Did Peter preach to the Gentiles that they could be saved by believing in Jesus Christ as their savior?



14. What did Paul say about water baptism?



15. Did he ever baptize anyone?



16. When did things start to change dispensationally?



17. How many baptisms are in order for today?



18. Which baptism passed away? Why?

The Baptism that Jesus commissioned his disciples and apostles, and the purpose for which it was commissioned - for the remission of sins - continues unto every generation from Pentecost until today and until the end of the the world ( Matthew 28:18-20; Acts 2:38). It has never changed and never will change its purpose. When Calvinist and other Faith Only groups get before the throne of judgement, they will understand fully why Jesus has commanded baptism, but until then, there will probably be endless debate. Funny, the apostles never debated baptism!

JustAChristian
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
JustAChristian,

If we examine Scripture we can see that the Lord Jesus forgave the sins of the paralytic man (Mt.9:2-8),and yet there is no evidence that he ever submitted to the rite of water baptism.

Also,we can see that the woman who annointed the Lord with oil also received forgiveness of sins,and there is no evidence whatsoever that she ever submitted to a rite of water baptism.In fact,the Lord said:

"Thy faith hath saved thee;go in peace"(Lk.7:37-50).

Why is there no mention of the rite of water baptism in regard to these people who had their sins forgiven?

In His grace,--Jerry
 

JustAChristian

New member
Why weren't these people baptized?

Why weren't these people baptized?

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart
JustAChristian,

If we examine Scripture we can see that the Lord Jesus forgave the sins of the paralytic man (Mt.9:2-8),and yet there is no evidence that he ever submitted to the rite of water baptism.

Also,we can see that the woman who annointed the Lord with oil also received forgiveness of sins,and there is no evidence whatsoever that she ever submitted to a rite of water baptism.In fact,the Lord said:

"Thy faith hath saved thee;go in peace"(Lk.7:37-50).

Why is there no mention of the rite of water baptism in regard to these people who had their sins forgiven?

In His grace,--Jerry

Jerry, Jerry,
Ye do err not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God! These two you mention neither were added to the church like those of Acts 2. They did not exercise in the communion of the Lord like those at Antioch (Acts 20:7). They neither gave of their means like the Corithians and churches of the New Testament. Why, because it was not yet commanded to be baptized of the Lord (Matthew 28:18-20). When the Lord suffered and died on the cross, his shed blood began its cleansing of sins (Hebrews 9:16-17). Prior to this time Jesus, in his Divinity could verbally forgive sins. It was not his purpose for this to continue after his death. He purposed that man should be obedient to the hearing of the gospel (Romans 1:16; Gal. 3:3; Heb. 5:8-9). The New Testament is progressive and we must learn to rightly divide it or put things in its proper setting. Paul did this to those disciples in Ephesus (Acts 19). They had received John's baptism by Apollos, but we find that Apollos and these had to be corrected, or put in the proper setting. If people would consider the proper setting in their study of the bible, I believe less confusion would be in the interpretation. Today, the setting is "...he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" (Mark 16:16). Have a great rest of the day.
 

c.moore

New member
Quote by JustAchristian

Symbolism needs to be understood in order to give proper biblical interpretation. Water is symbolized as a grave in Romans 6. We are buried in the grave of water. A grave consist of a hole, dirt and covering up.




Quote by c.moore
Are you saying that the water baptism is really a symbol of the spiritual baptism??????



Quote JustAchristian

In the latter part of Gal. 3:27, Paul states that in baptism we "put on Christ." Again we come to symbolism.



Quote c.moore
Are you saying that water baptism is a symbol AGAIN??????????????????????


Quote JustAchristian

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT BAPTISM
Baptism is the point at which a person is united with Christ into His death and resurrection into "newness of life" (Rom 6:3)
There is only ONE recognized baptism. "One Lord, one faith, one baptism," (Eph 4:5)

There is not a spiritual baptism and a water baptism.

The baptism recognized is the one instituted by Christ himself, which He said was in order to "fulfill ALL righteousness" (Mt 3:15).




Quote c.moore
You said; that you didn´t say this in one of your post, but here is the proof again.
I don`t know if your lieing ,or if your confused.
I hope this is not the reason why you don`t understand about the truth of water baptism.
Please check out what you posted, because so how it look like you was calling me a liar, but I don`t let this bother me because I can humble myself even though I know I am right, and correct about something. If you can`t didvide rightly your posts, then I think you will have A hard time dividing the bible.
I just want to be a help and A blessing to you,
I guess because it`s just Jesus in me, but check this out JustAchristian!



Quote by JustAchristian
I have never contended that there was never two baptisms. In fact, there is three baptisms : Water, Holy Spirit and fire. Am I getting too deep for you c.moore? What we need to always do is in fact, rightly divide the word of God. John came baptizing in the Jordan (water baptism). Jesus baptized with the Holy Spirit (On the day of Pentecost over the Apostles, and at the house of Cornelius. This fulfulled the promise that all flesh (Jew and Gentile) would be baptrized with the Holy Spirit. All flesh does not mean all people, for there are numerous examples of Christians that did not experience the HolySpirit baptism in the Bible.




Quote by cmoore

What`s up with that JustAchristian?:confused:

Let God Bless you
peace
 

c.moore

New member
Re: Lesson from john chapter four.

Re: Lesson from john chapter four.

Originally posted by JustAChristian



c.moore,


A passage familiar to most of us is the incident taken from John, chapter four. Here Jesus is seen at Jacob's well in Samaria, teaching a woman of infamous character and reputation:

"Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph. Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour. There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink ... Then said the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, asketh drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans. Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, And the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water? ... Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life" (John 4:5-14).

Jesus here contrasts living, running water to the stagnant, still cistern or pool water. Often Jehovah is referred to as the source of living water by Jeremiah (cf. Jer. 2:13), and Zechariah prophesied of the preaching of the gospel of Christ as rivers of living waters.

"And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem ..." (Zech. 14:8).

Paul's reference to the rock in Horeb shows that Christ was the "spiritual rock" that provided living water for the Israelites in the wilderness (cf. Exo. 17:6; 1 Cor. 10:4). Christians have the responsibility today to take the invitation of Jesus to every thirsty soul on earth:

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22:17).

Those who respond to this call -- of Christ, the Holy Spirit, and the church can look forward to heaven, where the Lamb shall feed us and lead us unto living fountains of water (cf. Rev. 7:17).

The conversation of Jesus with the Samaritan woman at Jacob's well is another example of His high respect for woman. That was a day when the average Jewish man would not even speak to his wife in public, much less speak to another woman; yet, Jesus engaged in a conversation with a strange Samaritan woman of low moral character. He used the time and opportunity to tell her about "living water" because she was a human being with a soul that needed the salvation He could give. Likewise, the treatment of the adulterous woman that was brought to Him in John 8 reflected this spirit. She was guilty of sin as Jesus recognized, but no effort was made on His part to humiliate her further in the eyes of the witnesses. She was another lost soul who needed a Savior and Jesus said, "...go, and sin no more" (John 8:11).

JustAChristian




Quote c.moore
If you can see and understand this as a spritual thirst, then you can understand about the water baptism rite.

I can only see that the christian that believe water baptism is salvation, must have learn this from somebody that maybe belong to one of these churches that teach this false doctrine, and misinterpretate the scripture to the way they make it fit their theology of water baptism works.

I wish they would put the horses before the carriot, because the yoke is easier.

I found out that JustAchristian ,Kevin, melody,and evangelion are not the only ones that are decieved in this external baptism , there is alot more.


Since there are several groups, some of which are very zealous, that stress the necessity of water baptism for the forgiveness of sins, this automatically makes this subject very important to: (1) Those proponents; (2) Those to whom this view of water baptism is presented; and (3) The Christian worker who desires to "contend for the faith," Jude 3.
The groups that teach that one MUST be water baptized to get his/her sins forgiven are: Church of Christ, Christian Church, Disciples of Christ, Roman Catholics, Russian and Greek Orthodox, Mormons (LDS), Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (RLDS), Apostolics (Jesus Only or United Pentecostals), Herbert Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God, Lutherans and others.

Well, I did learn alot from this water baptism doctrine , and I seen both sides and I think I seen all the scripture that the chritian try to help defend their water baptism doctrine.
I also learn more scripture to use to push someone to get water baptized after being born again and saved, so that they will want to get baptized, not because of salvation , but because it `s a testimony and identifycation of there spiritual baptism which count, and please god.
I am responsible for 84,000 home here in Germany when I teach baptism on television , even thoough there might not be so many people watching at the time I am on tv, but even if there is only one thousand people watching and learning I will stand responsible before God if I teach false doctrine so I must rightly divide the Word of God so people don`t fall, and be mislead by A water baptism rite and you all have helped to show that I am on the right side, and doing the will of God praise God.

God Bless
peace:up:
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Just AChristian,

Anyone who says that the "one baptism" which is one of the seven elements listed in the "unity of the SPIRIT" is water,to the exclusion of the SPIRIT BAPTISM that is so clearly for the present time,has no business telling anyone else to rightly divide the Bible.

The Christian´s position as members of the Church,the Body of Christ,is ESSENTIAL for our entire Christian experience.And Scripture states that the Christian is BAPTIZED BY THE SPIRIT into the Body of Christ:

"For by one SPIRIT are we BAPTIZED into one Body...the Body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13,27).

If the "one baptism" is "water baptism",then how do we get baptized into His Body?

No,the one Baptism at the present time is the Spirit baptism by which we are baptized into His Body.

The Apotle Paul urges the Christian to compare "spiritual things with spiritual"(1Cor.2:13),and if we do not do this and compare "natural" things like "water" to the other six spiritual elements contained in the "unity of the SPIRIT",we cannot come to a knowledge of the truth.

And it is obvious that your refusing to rightly divide natural thing from Spiritual things has left you in a state of confusion regarding the subject of "baptism".

For example,after Cornelius heard the gospel and believed,the Holy Spirit fell upon him.There can be no doubt to spiritual minds that he was saved at that point in time,and yet at that time he had not been touched by even one drop of water.

Cornelius was saved before any water touched him,but you continue to insist that submitting to a rite of water baptism is necessary for salvation.

Next,the big argument lately has been whether or not the "baptism" that John preached actually was for the "remission of sins". All those that believe that the "one baptism" is water have been insisting that that it does take away sins.

The clear impression I got was that they were teaching that a condition for salvation was to be baptized in water,and that would take away their sins.

Now you seem to be saying that it wasn´t a requirement for salvation because the Lord Jesus had not commanded it and because Christ had not died on the Cross.

Which one is it? Did the baptism of John actually take away sins and was this baptism a condition of salvation?

If it was a condition of salvation,then why did not the Lord Jesus baptize the sinners that he healed?

JustAChristian,JustAChristian,how are you ever going to learn about spiritual things if you continue to compare "natural" things with "spiritual" things?
 
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biblicalanser4u

Guest
Originally posted by JustAChristian


The Baptism that Jesus commissioned his disciples and apostles, and the purpose for which it was commissioned - for the remission of sins - continues unto every generation from Pentecost until today and until the end of the the world ( Matthew 28:18-20; Acts 2:38). It has never changed and never will change its purpose.

Ok, so now your saying the church started at Pentecost. How can this be true when everything that happened at Pentecost was in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy. Could that which was made known to the sons of men in other generations be the same as that which was never made known to them? I refer you to

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Collossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the Dispensationof God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

2. The Body of Christ of this dispensation is a joint-body of Jews and Gentiles, but the minstry of Pentecost and for some seven or eight years thereafter was to the Jews only as shown by:

Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
22--Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Acts 3:12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?
v 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
v26-Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

If it is argued that God began the Body of Christ at Pentecost, not revealing it until Paul came on the scene, it must be admitted that the message being dispensed between Pentecost and Paul was that of the prophets and not that of the Pauline revelation.

3. The Scriptures states that Pentecost ushered in the last days of Isreal (Acts 2:17--And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:.)
There is no hint that Pentecost was the first day of the Body of Christ.

4. The first real offer of the kingdom was given to Isreal after the day of Pentecost.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Christ Himself made it very clear that He had to first suffer before the glories of the kingdom could come in.

Luke 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

If God had already begun the Church at this time (Acts 2) it seems unlikely that He would have then OFFERED to send Jesus back to establish the kingdom of the Millennium.

5. Paul teaches that it was because of Isreal's being cast aside that reconciliation was sent to the Gentiles, which marked the beginning of this dispensation.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
v 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
v 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

But Isreal was not cast aside at pentecost. The MESSAGE was sent to them first of all.

Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

May God Bless You!
 

JustAChristian

New member
c.moore, you're confusing!

c.moore, you're confusing!

Originally posted by c.moore
Quote by JustAchristian

Symbolism needs to be understood in order to give proper biblical interpretation. Water is symbolized as a grave in Romans 6. We are buried in the grave of water. A grave consist of a hole, dirt and covering up.




Quote by c.moore
Are you saying that the water baptism is really a symbol of the spiritual baptism??????



Quote JustAchristian

In the latter part of Gal. 3:27, Paul states that in baptism we "put on Christ." Again we come to symbolism.



Quote c.moore
Are you saying that water baptism is a symbol AGAIN??????????????????????


Quote JustAchristian

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT BAPTISM
Baptism is the point at which a person is united with Christ into His death and resurrection into "newness of life" (Rom 6:3)
There is only ONE recognized baptism. "One Lord, one faith, one baptism," (Eph 4:5)

There is not a spiritual baptism and a water baptism.

The baptism recognized is the one instituted by Christ himself, which He said was in order to "fulfill ALL righteousness" (Mt 3:15).




Quote c.moore
You said; that you didn´t say this in one of your post, but here is the proof again.
I don`t know if your lieing ,or if your confused.
I hope this is not the reason why you don`t understand about the truth of water baptism.
Please check out what you posted, because so how it look like you was calling me a liar, but I don`t let this bother me because I can humble myself even though I know I am right, and correct about something. If you can`t didvide rightly your posts, then I think you will have A hard time dividing the bible.
I just want to be a help and A blessing to you,
I guess because it`s just Jesus in me, but check this out JustAchristian!



Quote by JustAchristian
I have never contended that there was never two baptisms. In fact, there is three baptisms : Water, Holy Spirit and fire. Am I getting too deep for you c.moore? What we need to always do is in fact, rightly divide the word of God. John came baptizing in the Jordan (water baptism). Jesus baptized with the Holy Spirit (On the day of Pentecost over the Apostles, and at the house of Cornelius. This fulfulled the promise that all flesh (Jew and Gentile) would be baptrized with the Holy Spirit. All flesh does not mean all people, for there are numerous examples of Christians that did not experience the HolySpirit baptism in the Bible.




Quote by cmoore

What`s up with that JustAchristian?:confused:

Let God Bless you
peace

c.moore,
I'm going to advise you like I did Jerry, you need to check your spelling. Its bad! Your thought structure is confusing also. What are really trying to say? You need to work on this, and after you have, check the spelling again!

JustAChristian
 

JustAChristian

New member
What Shall We Do After We Are Saved?

There is more to salvation than just being saved. It would be selfish to think that all Jesus wants us to do with our lives is to just have our sins forgiven and be added to the church. Being born again is important, we should all know, but once someone has been forgiven and saved from sins, the works of discipleship just begin. The Bible tells us what Christians did when they were saved. "And they continued steadfastly in the apostle's doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayer" (Acts 2:42). This verse paints a beautiful picture of Christians enjoying the fellowship of assembling for worship. Worship then included preaching, praying, remembering the Lord Jesus in the taking of the Lord's supper, giving of our means for the work of the church, and singing praises to God in song. Worship should be done in the same manner today. The patter of worship is clear, and we have not authority to adjust it in any means.

Also, when one is saved in the forgiveness of sins, there must be an effort extended to always attend the meeting of the Lord's church. There is no reason to willfully miss a single meeting. The Lord understands that times at times we are sick or must see to the needs of a family member who is sick, or occasionally, we must work a portion of the Lord's day on our jobs and have to miss. Maybe our job involves working rotating shifts and we have to miss services, but at no time should we purposely miss worship (Heb.10:25).

During the course of Christian life and activity, we have a need to increase our knowledge of God and Jesus. The Bible tells us to expect this saying "As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby" (1Peter 2:2). We are further admonished to "...grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savor Jesus Christ......" (2 Peter 3:18).

While we grow to a better knowledge of our Lord, we need to improve our standard of life in Christ. This is accomplished because we "put off the old man of sin" and "put on the new man" (Col. 3:5-9; Eph 4:24). Quality of life in Christ is greatly improved daily as we walk in the nurture and admonition of the Lord (Rom. 6:4). As the saved of the earth, we must walk in a manner of life that befits the Gospel. Paul taught the church at Philliphi, "...let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel" (Phil 1:27). We learn from Paul's writings that he taught the same thing in all churches of Christ (1 Cor 4:17; Rom 16:16).

When one is born again he is saved and in faithful living can expect eternal life. He or she should keep themselves unspotted from the world (James 1:27). We can't delve in sin, as a manner of life, for the Bible tells us that we cannot serve two masters (Mt. 6:24). Being saved means that we are put on a course to serve the Lord and not Satan. We can not allow sin to be a pattern for our lives (Rom 6:1-2; 3:8).

Finally, it would be right for me to say that a Christian should be ready for every good work (Titus 3:1,8,14). Further, they must adorn the doctrine of Christ with a good manner of life (Titus 2:10-12; 1Peter 3:3-4), but primarily, they must be on guard against the devil and his desire to make us be lost. A Christian must take heed lest they fall (1 Cor. 10:12).

JustAChristian
 
B

biblicalanser4u

Guest
Re: Re: this is turning into a fist fight!!!!

Re: Re: this is turning into a fist fight!!!!

Originally posted by JustAChristian


Funny, the apostles never debated baptism!

JustAChristian


HMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
B

biblicalanser4u

Guest
Evan,

One of my mates here at T.O.L. (Jaltus) challenged Bob's thesis, but did not find the time to return and develop his argument. I took up the cudgels on his behalf, presenting Bob with a simple list of simple questions.

Care to DANCE!!!!!!!!!:)
 
B

biblicalanser4u

Guest
Dan37,

Baptism is as necessary for a Christian as air is to the mortal man. If a person rejects baptism he is rejecting the empowering gifts of the Holy Spirit that produces the fruit of the Spirit.

Question 1 What kind of Babtism are we speaking of here. Water or Spirit? If your speaking of beong Water Babtized, your incorrect. If it's Spirit Babtism, You would be correct.



Baptism is an absolute requirement for the salvation of the whole man.; mind, body and spirit.

Again I refer you to previous question.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
JustAChristian,

You seem to have overlooked the spiritual aspects of Christian living.When we are BAPTIZED into His Body by the SPIRIT,we are "translated into the Kingdom of His dear Son"(Col.1:13),and this is a spiritual kingdom in heaven.Therefore,"our citizenship is in heaven"(Phil.3:20).

God "hath raised us up together,and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus"(Eph.2:6).

"If ye,then,be risen with Christ,seek those things which are above,where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.Set your affectionson things above,not on things of the earth"(Col.3:1-2).

You have set your affections on "things of the earth",like WATER BAPTISMS.You are full of MORAL teachings,to the exclusion SPIRITUAL TEACHINGS.

You remind me of the Pharisees who set their affections on keeping the law,but at the same time they crucified their own Messiah.They could understand things of this world,but they were blind as bats when it came to seeing spiritual things.

Anyone that thinks that the "one baptism" included in the "unity of the Spirit" is a "water baptism" to the exclusion of the Spirit baptism into Christ is NOT understanding the things of the Spiril.
 

HopeofGlory

New member
John was instructed by God to water baptize and it can not be denied that this baptism was of men. I ask this question... was John's baptism performed by man to man and was it witnessed by men? The only answer is "Yes" it was and it can not be argued to the contrary. This commission was earthly and pertained to an earthly kingdom. The baptism of heaven is not performed by men but is an operation of God by the Spirit.


The baptism performed by man in water was replaced with a "greater" baptism performed by God.

The words of Christ cannot be denied for he says these words so that you might be saved!

If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. John 5:31 (KJV)

Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. John 5:33 (KJV)
But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. John 5:34 (KJV)

If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 1 John 5:9 (KJV)

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 1 John 5:11 (KJV)

Jesus was water baptized as a witness to an earthly kingdom but He was also Spiritually baptized in death as God's witness to a Spiritual kingdom.

The words of Jesus confirm this very truth! The Spiritual witness of God has superceded the earthly witness of man and God's witness can only be received by "faith" and not by any act (work) of man such as water baptism. The baptism of John was authorized by God but that does nothing to disprove that it was the witness of men .

But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. John 5:36 (KJV)

This witness of men has clearly been replaced with a greater witness of God. Paul was the first to reveal the greater witness of God that Christ died for the remission of sin.
If these simple words do not mean this then what do they mean? Jesus said that even His witness would not be true and yet some say John's witness of water baptism is true but if... we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 1 John 5:9 (KJV)
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 1 John 5:10 (KJV)

Many false teachers of today have chosen to make God a liar.

Jesus spoke nothing but truth and many did not understand or receive His words. The same holds true today and because this truth has been revealed through Paul they pervert it in order to keep their doctrine of works. John the Baptist verifies the words of Jesus.....“He must increase, but I must” decrease John 3:30 (KJV). John the Baptist reveals the contrast of the two baptisms (I indeed baptize you with water "but" he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost Matt. 3:11) He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. John 3:31 (KJV)
The above clearly shows the "earthly" message to an "earthly" kingdom will be replaced by a "Spiritual" message with a "Spiritual" kingdom. Those that deny this believe in a works doctrine of which they cannot left go because it condemns them to hell. Dispensations are clearly defined through progressive revelations in the word of God.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, "all things" are become new. 2 Cor. 5:17 (KJV)

And "all things" are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation....2 Cor. 5:18 (KJV)

Any theology fails when it denies that "all things" have become new and that they are totally of God (Spiritual) and not of the earth. Anyone that denies this truth has made God a liar!
Jesus entered into His earthly kingdom but He has also entered into His heavenly kingdom at the right hand of the Father.. Jesus was baptized in water for His earthly priesthood but He was baptized in death for His Spiritual priesthood and all things have become new.

Water baptism was "for remission of sin" but when you take that "gospel of the circumcision" and teach it in this dispensation of grace then you are a false teacher with a false witness.

Being baptized onto Christ is becoming a member of His body and being in His body through faith we died with Him and have become a new creature created in Christ Jesus.

To be "Spiritually buried" in death with Christ is the moment of salvation. Those who use words indicate it happens when you are water baptized could not be further from the truth for salvation has no connection to an earthly element.

Those that cannot discern the difference in the natural and the Spiritual have not had the eyes of their understanding enlighten by the Spirit of Christ. This difference brings down their house of cards and reveals the dispensational truth in the word of God.

In Christ
Craig
 

Evangelion

New member
Biblicalanser4u - yes, I do care to dance, as it happens. Bring on your very best copy/pasted pro-Dispensationalist arguments!

On a more serious note, let's review Dispensationalism with a critical eye:
  • The entire concept of "dispensations" is arbitrary. That much is true.
  • Indeed, the Bible does not actually speak in terms of "dispensations" but in terms of "Covenants" - of which there are essentially two: the Old and the New.
  • The Dispensationalist must therefore hunt through the Scriptures and define his "dispensations" as he sees fit. Bob Hill has already admitted that we could arrive at anything from 3-37 different dispensations, depending on the terms of reference.
  • Dispensationalism leads to the unhealthy idea that the message of the early Christian community necessarily changed with the conversion of the apostle Paul. This stands in contrast to the Biblical data.
  • Dispensationalism asserts that God will not deal with His people until the Second Advent. This too, stands in contrast to the Biblical data.
  • Dispensationalism is associated with the twin heresies of OSAS and "Spirit baptism" as a replacement for Biblical baptism.
  • Dispensationalism distorts the Biblical definitions of "faith" and "works", attempting to prove that - in a soteriological context, at least - the two are mutually exclusive.
That's just a few objections, off the cuff.

Would you care to discuss them?

:)
 
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Evangelion

New member
Biblicalanser4u - please take another look at my previous post (above.)

You will see that I require you to address the questions which Mr Hill left untouched.

Take your time... ;)
 
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