The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[c.moore]

When one receives water baptism, what does he/she receive? The "Holy Spirit" or what? Because the person believes and is baptized like the Bible says.

ANSWER:
Regarding water baptism as evidence of our "belief" .... A person has not truly "believed" until they have fully "obeyed" - and "God gives the holy Ghost to all who obey Him" (Acts 5:32). So water baptism is not a sign that one has "believed" at all. Being "born of (or receiving)the Spirit" is the sign that one has truly believed God. Water baptism was something God gave John the Baptist. It was not an "act" merely performed "in water". John the did not come "doing" water baptism - the Bible says he came "preaching" water baptism. And what was the message he was preaching? The message was that he (John)would baptize in water for that time being, but one coming after him was going to baptize with the holy Ghost, and with fire. Water baptism was a holy thing in John the Baptist's time... so was animal sacrifice, the Levitical priestly service, etc. But when the time came that those things "faded away" (after the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, and the coming of the Spirit), the "types" must be forsaken. It is NOT God's will to practice them any longer. If one practices water baptism, one must ALSO practice the other facets of Moses' ceremonial law (such as sacrifices, feast days, the tabernacle for worship, etc.), because "the law and the prophets were unto John." Meaning that John was also under the law - but the law and it's ceremonies and types had become reality in Christ Jesus. So to answer your question - what does a person receive in water baptism now? Nothing, other than they get wet! The truth is that if a non-born again person can practice it - it is worthless, because now, true worshippers worship "in Spirit and in truth", not in "ceremony and in type".


God Bless

 

[c.moore]

facts and answers on water baptism

facts and answers on water baptism

: Acts 10:45-48 "And they of the circumcision which beleieved were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days." If it is wrong to water baptize Gentiles, then explain this. Or is Cornelius an idolater?


Peter and John continued to go to the temple (Acts 3:1) after they had received the holy Ghost, even though there was nothing in the temple that could any longer wash sin away, or provide them any benefit. They had evidently not understood that the earthly priests were no longer of value to their souls any longer, and that prayers (that's what they were going for) need not be made in an earthly temple to be heard. Even Paul continued to observe certain ceremonial rites (Acts 21:26) of the law, even though he himself later said they were "dead works". These things were necessary for them to do out of a love for God, for the law was in the process of "waxing old and vanishing" (Heb.8:13). The disciples were continually having truth unfold to them, and we read many times after God showed them something, them saying, "and I remembered the word of the Lord...." - and God would explain to them what just happened. Cornelius was not an idolater - nor was Peter for water baptizing him - but Peter had never seen a person receive the holy Ghost baptism who was NOT water baptism - and in his perplexity, he said, "how can we forbid this man water?" Water baptism was a work of the law (for it was given to John the baptist prior to the coming of Jesus - and "the law and the prophets were unto John"). But as the gospel of the Spirit of God was unfolding, these "dead ceremonies" began to fall by the wayside. And Paul was taught by God that ALL ceremonies of the law, all "types" in the old covenant were no longer necessary (Col.2:16). All that was necessary in this new covenant was God cleansing the soul by baptizing them with the Spirit into the body of Christ (1Cor.12:13). Now - Paul was a wise master builder - he said so. The foundations of the gospel were given to him by God. And he said, NOW, there is "only ONE baptism" (Eph. 4:4). If there is only one baptism, why do you (and others) practice two, and LOVE two? Those that love two baptisms are "rebellious" to the truth that Paul preached.


Be Blessed

 

[c.moore]

. John 3:5 states "verily,verily I day unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter intothe kingdom of God." "Acts 8:36 - God went to a lot of trouble to see that the Eunuch was baptized with water. Act 10:47 - again the coventant was sealed with baptism in the name of Jesus. Acts 19:5 - another example of baptism in Jesus name, for in the next verse is when they recieved the Holy Ghost. Is says "AND" when Paul laid his hands upon them... Each example is clearly a separate experience. These are only the ones off of the top of my head. Obedience is vital in God's economy. We have leaders, because it is God's teaching. The spirit ALWAYS lines up with the Word. Why do you say water baptism is not necessary if the Word says it is?


There are clearly two baptisms ordained of God for specific times and people in the Bible. 1) John's water baptism, which was given to John by God for Israel, as a sign of repentance and preparation for the coming of the Messiah. 2) Jesus' baptism in the Spirit, which was given by God to Jesus, as a sign that one had truly repented, been sanctified, and received into the body of Christ. (please read these scriptures: Luke 3:16, 1Cor.6:11, 1Cor.12:13). In every Biblical example of water baptism, we must see whether the people being water baptized needed to be - and whether those baptizing them should have been doing so. There were some in the Bible that should NOT have been water baptized, and that is why Paul told some, "I thank God that I baptized NONE of you..." (1Cor.1) - because it confused them. These are the ONLY two baptisms ordained by God. They each had a specific purpose, they were each for a different people, and for a different time. Now you must make your decision. Water or Spirit - because Paul said that NOW - in this dispensation we are in, there is only "ONE baptism" (Eph.4:3-4). Which one do you practice? Spirit only - in obedience to Jesus? Or water AND Spirit in rebellion to the truth? There is only one that counts.


Praise God

 

[c.moore]

If it is possible to be saved (in the end) without something - we don't need it any more. If it is possible to receive the holy Ghost WITHOUT water baptism - then God is telling us something about a baptism that he has finished with . . . it's no longer necessary. It was a "type" of the baptism to come. If we are "baptized into the body" by water - then we need it. But we "are all baptized into one body BY THE SPIRIT" (as Paul taught in 1Cor.12:13). So if a person can be made a member of the church (which is what happens when one receives the Spirit), then "water" is something "extra" which only men require now - not God. It was necessary in John's day, because John was performing it during a time when ceremony was part of acceptable worship to God . . . but as the other ceremonies of the law, God's "pattern" is fulfilled in Jesus Christ, and HIS baptism. In other words, as John said, "I must decrease, and he must increase". Notice that Jesus NEVER baptized anyone in water (John 4:2) - he has a better one, and as Paul wisely said as the "master builder", NOW, there is only ONE baptism (Eph.4:5). I suggest YOU re-think YOUR position, because you are practicing TWO baptisms, and that is not what the scriptures teach. And, as important, is that the Spirit is NOT saying to do that today. RECENT VIEWER'S QUESTION:You mention that water-baptism is no longer applicable, but Philip the evangelist baptized the Ethiopian Eunuch in water and was then 'transported' to another location. Doesn't this teach that water baptism is still relevant today? ANSWER:Water baptism is John's baptism, not Jesus' baptism. It is a work "of the law", for "the law and the prophets were until John". Jesus has fulfilled all the "types" of the law, and now baptizes people with the Spirit. ANY and EVERY ceremony practiced which is possible without Jesus' suffering, death, and resurrection is a useless "Christian" or other "tradition", and the faithful will leave them behind. They are no longer needed in this new covenant. The Ethiopian eunuch must have been a Jew, because that is who water baptism was primarily for. (There are also examples of Gentiles receiving water baptism early on in church experience - but still, this "type" for the Jews was being taken out of the way). Water baptism did not wash away the Eunuch's sin - that is something ONLY Spirit baptism can do (1Cor.6:11), and it did not put him into the body of Christ as Spirit baptism alone does (1Cor.12:13).


AMEN

 

[c.moore]

On the issue of "water baptism".

. . First we must establish a truth which Paul preached to the Gentiles (that is you and me). He told us that NOW (in this dispensation) there is only ONE baptism (Eph.4:4). Not two... but one. So we must ask the question, "which baptism is it that God now has ordained for people to receive"? There were only two baptisms ever ordained by God, only two clearly referenced baptisms in the scriptures: John the baptist's water baptism, and Jesus' spirit baptism. John the baptist's baptism was for ISRAEL (not gentiles); and it ALWAYS contained a message when it was performed: "there is one coming after me... he shall baptize you with the holy Ghost and with fire". If it did not have that message with it, it was not John's baptism. (So men who practice water baptism without the following message of Spirit baptism are not even practicing John's baptism, really!) After Jesus came, and died for sin, he went up to the Father, and purchased the "promise" of the holy Ghost, which he shed on the day of Pentecost. As the gospel was going forth, the ministry of the gospel to the Gentiles was given to Paul, and his message was that of the holy Ghost baptism ONLY. Ceremonial works of the law (of which John's baptism was one) were irrelevant in the gospel which Paul preached. Paul said "God did NOT send ME to baptize (in water)". He also said that he was "thankful that HE (Paul) had not baptized (in water) any of the believers in Corinth". Why? Because it was confusing to people! Water baptism is a work of the "Law", and is past. It was for the Jews; and Peter and Paul did baptize a handful of people (even some who were Gentiles), but as their knowledge of the true faith was "exploding" into full view, it was Paul who had the revelation that it was BY the holy Ghost baptism that a person was put into the body of Christ (1Cor.12:13). And that is why Paul (and we!) practice that ceremonial act unto Gentiles no more. Water baptism is not a demonstration of "faith" as people are told... it is a demonstration of "unbelief", and leads one to believe that what God does for a person is insufficient to save their souls in the end. Since Christianity is built on ceremony and tradition, that is why the foolish there continue to practice water baptism (and many other signs and symbols of old covenant worship). And of course, that is one reason the Spirit of God is saying to all of the holy Spirit baptized children within Christianity: "Come out of her my people".


Be blessed
Praise the Lord!

 

[Freak]

Go get em C. Moore.:up:

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

Kevin Quoted:

Never have I proclaimed that water actually washes our sins away. It's just water, and could never take place of the blood of Christ.


Quote c.moore
Now we are getting some where.
I am glad to know that you accept the blood of Jesus to have priority over some baptism.

Now we are getting somewhere? I've always stated that baptism is for the forgivness of sin by the blood of Christ. You just don't listen.

Did you notice he said it is a symbol water baptism??

You are so hung up on this "symbolic" thing that it is hindering you from seeing the purpose of baptism. I'll try to explain this, again.

Baptism is symbolic of Christ's death, burial, and ressurection. Why is it symbolic? Because it has to be! The only one who can literllay go through Christ's death, burial, and ressurection is Christ Himself! We are obviously not Christ.

Now, while baptism is symbolic of Christ's death, burial, and ressurection, what baptism does for the believer is allow us to die with Christ, be buried with Christ, and be resurrected a new creature, walking in the newness of life just like (likeness) Christ! This is what baptism does for the believer.

IF we don't get baptized we have NOT crucified the old man of sin, which is why we die with Christ through baptism. (Rom. 6:4) Why else do you think we die with Christ trough baptism... it's so that the man of sin is crucifed, so that the body of sin might be destroyed (verse 6)! The man of sin is destroyed, which makes us free from sin (verse 7). We are *ONLY* free from sin if we have crucified the man of sin! That's why 2 Tim. 2:11 says that IF die with Christ, we will also LIVE with Christ. IF. IF. IF.

Romans 6:4 makes it quite clear that we die with Christ through BAPTISM:

Romans (MKJV)
4) Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life.

We HAVE to die with Christ IF we want to live with Christ! That is certainly essential to salvation, and this achieved through BAPTISM, as clearly shown above. Again, IT IS THOSE WHO HAVE DIED WITH CHRIST WHO ARE FREED FROM SIN (Rom. 6:7). Conditional! Essential!

Quote c.moore
What is meant by likeness????

To resemble, or to be like. Just like Christ died, was buried, and was ressurected, we too will share in those things, IF IF IF (conditional!) we are untied in the likeness of His death through baptism (Rom. 6:5).

By partaking in this commandment, we do what God commanded, FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS. He who has DIED with Christ through baptism (Rom. 6:4) has been FREED from sin (Rom. 6:7)!

Quote Kevin

In verse 7, who has been freed from sin? Who? Those who have died with Christ through baptism. 2 Timothy 2:11 supports this condtional statement by saying that IF we died with Him, we shall also live with Him. IF, if, if.

So IF you have NOT died with Christ, you will not live with Him. IF you have not died with Christ, you are not freed from sin. IF you are not united in Christ's death, we will not be in the likeness of Christ's ressurection.

IF you haven't died from sin, you aren't saved.


Quote c.moore
But isn`t that a faith thing ro believe by faith you have died from your sins??

No. Faith will lead you to baptism (just as in Acts 2), which is how we die with Christ, crucifying our man of sin. Again:

Romans (MKJV)
4) Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism INTO DEATH, so that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life.

If you have faith, but do not die with Christ through baptism, how are you free from sin when you haven't crucified the man of sin, which baptism does (Rom. 6:6):

Romans 6:6 (MKJV)
6) knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be destroyed, that from now on we should not serve sin.

If you have not crucifed the man of sin, THE MAN OF SIN IS STILL VERY MUCH ALIVE!!! Can't you see that??!!

And how do you answer 2 Tim. 2:11, which says that --->IF<--- we died with Christ, we shall also live with Christ? IF - conditional.

Quote Kevin

You put a lot of faith in your TV evangelists. I put my faith in what the word of God says. If Billy Graham and others alike convert people by asking them to say the sinner's prayer, then those people have NOT obeyed what GOD COMMANDED for the remission of sins. What do you think God is going to think about that? Who is man to change God's plan of salvation? Don't you find it just a little odd that there is not ONE example in the New Testament, NOT ONE, of people being saved by a sinner's prayer? Yet, belief and baptism is found in many, many places, which just echos what Christ said about salvation: He who believes and is baptized will be saved.


Quote c.moore
So all those people who repented and believed in Christ and ask the blood of Jesus to wash them at Billy Graham meetings and other Evangelist meeting were not saved at all because they all didn`t obey and get wet afeter they got saved is this correct and all the hundred of Evangelist, pastorand prophet are on their way to hell because they didn`t give a complete water gospel is that correct?????????

A complete "water gospel"? Like I said, they do not convert people the way the apostles did. That's a fact. As I've said, you will not fine ONE, not ONE example of conversion by using the sinner's prayer. But, Billy Graham does it, so that must make it right... right? Not even. They Billy and others like him don't follow the Biblical way of converting. But that doesn't appearantly mean much to you. What seems to matter to you is that they are popular and that a lot of people buy what they say instead of reading their Bible and seeing how people were converted according to the Bible.

quote:

Also When a person maybe believes on a street by witnessing and it is a monday, and the church is only open on sunday and the person hasn`t been baptized yet and that person get killed or dies before sunday in your doctrine this person will have to go to hell because he didn`t get water baptized for his sins to be forgiven and can`t be saved is this true???

Another what if statement. I was quite clear about these in my last post. If what if statements is the best you can do verses the Biblical examples of conversion, you might as well give up.

Quote c.moore
I use this so we can see eye to eye and get the whole message what I am saying and why I believe and trust the bible is saying to me.
I can do my best explaining the spiritual things of God by what If to a natural religious person, that is led more by the flesh than the Spirit.

Ok, but what if scenarios do not change how conversion is done according to the Bible. You can come up with as many "what if's" as you like, and not one word in the Bible will change as a result of them.

quote: c.moore

Also if a church is so large that they only have a baptism every 3 month or more will all the thousands of people in between that believe and repented, and was not watered baptized also go to hell because they didn`t get their sins washed away in water and didn`t do like the bible say`s in Acts 2:38????



Quote Kevin

Ooooh... so you now think Acts 2:38 is referring to WATER baptism instead of Spirit baptism. I'm glad you finally realize that Acts 2:38 is referring to water baptism. I've been trying to tell you this over and over. But you know... what I say doesn't seem to matter a whole lot. I don't know why you bother asking me questions.


Quote c.moore

No you are putting Words in my mouth I didn`t say I believe that

Ok, well then you should ask me a question about Acts 2:38 and refer to it as water baptism in your arguement. That's just a TAD misleading.

I only mention what you believe and was using you Acts 2:38 which you try to build your doctrine on.

I don't build my doctrine on Acts 2:38. I build my doctrine around Christ and what He commanded us to do for salvation.

Quote kevin

Baptism is symbolic of Christ's death, burial, and ressurection. And by dying with Him through baptism, we have obeyed what God commanded for the forgiveness of our sins. And also reflect again about the conditional statements of Romans 6... you know... the "IF" part.


Quote c,moore

I don`t think you friend Francisco would agree with you on what you said about an symbolic anything, I am glad to see you do, this is an improvement praise God.

I think Francisco and I see pretty much eye to eye on baptism's necessity, and that it is symbolic of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

Quote c.moore
It`s not hard , because with Jesus the yoke , and burden is light and easy Kevin, and it is a matter of Choice , receiving, and trusting in Jesus .
Really no works or religious rituals inclúded in the salvation message, but if you wants some reward , try to be obedient , and please our Father.

God Bless

Oh yeah? Then why is the gate to righteousness narrow, and FEW will find it, if it's so easy?

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

Why do you use up all that bandwidth copy and pasting from websites? I could easily do the same, you know, but that's not the point of the forum!

If I want to read a book, or someone's article, I'll do just that, but I don't go looking for them on a debate forum.

 

[Kevin]

Freak,

Go get em C. Moore. :up:

Are you hoping that he will try and answer the questions that you can't, such as is repentance necessary for salvation?


----------------------

C.Moore,

What do you say to that question?

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Kevin
Freak,
Are you hoping that he will try and answer the questions that you can't, such as is repentance necessary for salvation?

Kevin, you have received a "different" Jesus then I have. You're Jesus is not able to save with His life but needs water. My Jesus saves through His life!!!!

For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Whose obedience are we trusting in for righteousness--ours or His?

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Kevin
Freak,



Are you hoping that he will try and answer the questions that you can't, such as is repentance necessary for salvation?


----------------------

C.Moore,

What do you say to that question?

I would start on this question because it is short and easy.

Yes ,of course repentance is necessary to have salvation, and when one repent they turn around meaning the person starts to obey after really repentance and do all they should do in their love walk with Jesus.

But to have to work for your salvation, or earn your salvation , and try to make yourself righteous, and obey commandments, and traditions, without Christ is for me another gospel like you claim Kevin.

I told you before and I think freak has tried to set you free from religious works by saying the good news and salvation message is the believe,trust with all your heart in Jesus, repent with the blood of Jesus Baptism and love the Lord Jesus= SAVED


next step as a saved , born again son of God Child.

Start to obey, and show your fruits of you salvation and being saved now.

do your christian walk and obey by water baptism, love you nieghbor, start having fellowship with other christians , go to church , pay tithes, and offerings , and etc.

this is the christian life and life style after being saved or after an alter call, or witness on the street.

Any other way is another interpretation of the bible , and another doctrine, and gospel..

It was for the Jews; and Peter and Paul did baptize a handful of people (even some who were Gentiles), but as their knowledge of the true faith was "exploding" into full view, it was Paul who had the revelation that it was BY the holy Ghost baptism that a person was put into the body of Christ (1Cor.12:13). And that is why Paul (and we!) practice that ceremonial act unto Gentiles no more. Water baptism is not a demonstration of "faith" as people are told... it is a demonstration of "unbelief", and leads one to believe that what God does for a person is insufficient to save their souls in the end. Since Christianity is built on ceremony and tradition, that is why the foolish there continue to practice water baptism (and many other signs and symbols of old covenant worship). And of course, that is one reason the Spirit of God is saying to all of the holy Spirit baptized children within Christianity: "Come out of her my people".

I notice you didn`t try to commit on those other post about water baptism.

God Bless

 

[c.moore]

Re: baptism views and notes

Re: baptism views and notes

Originally posted by c.moore
Why in John 3:5 does it says "be born of water and spirit", yet you say water baptism is not necessary now? And if it is not needed among Gentiles, why in Acts 10:47,48 does the Bible say that Gentiles were baptized in water?

ANSWER
Regarding being baptized in "water" and in "spirit" (John 3:5) --- Jesus explained what he meant in the very next verse (John 3:6): "that which is born of the flesh [water] is flesh [i.e. a human birth]; and that which is born of the spirit is spirit [i.e. a spiritual birth]. Jesus was saying that being born the first time in this flesh (water), was not enough. We must be born a second time (in Spirit). If being born "of water" was, as you say, water baptism, then a person must be born again, AGAIN!(Three times - once into this world in the flesh, a second time in water baptism, and a third time in Spirit baptism). Regarding Peter's baptizing of the Gentiles --- that was something that Peter and the first Jewish believers did. When Peter and those with him were astonished that the holy Ghost was poured out on the Gentiles, Peter "could not forbid them water", because that is what every Jew who repented prior to this happening did. If you were a Jew, and you repented - then you submitted to John the Baptist's baptism of repentance - and then, submitted again to Jesus' baptism in Spirit. There was no other way (in Peter's and the Jews' minds, that is). However, as the gospel was going forward, and as the truth of Jesus's baptism was being made known, God needed a new man. He needed a man that could explain (as a wise master builder) what it was that was necessary in the dispensation we are now in - and that man was the Apostle Paul. HE was the one who would explain how a person was made one of God's children NOW. Paul taught that "by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body". When a person receives the Spirit, it is God saying that the person receiving it has repented.

God Bless

Kevin I am really suprised and shocked you didn`t commit on the three baptism doctrine which you claim to be your biblical doctrine.

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Freak
Go get em C. Moore.:up:

Hello Freak.

Thanks, but the Holy Spirit want to teach them and give them true understanding more than me , it`s just they want to be led by the flesh or water and do all the religious riturals to earn their obedience and make make themselves righteous for God.


God Bless you and your great ministry.:thumb:

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Kevin
c.moore,



You are so hung up on this "symbolic" thing that it is hindering you from seeing the purpose of baptism. I'll try to explain this, again.

Baptism is symbolic of Christ's death, burial, and ressurection. Why is it symbolic? Because it has to be! The only one who can literllay go through Christ's death, burial, and ressurection is Christ Himself! We are obviously not Christ.

Now, while baptism is symbolic of Christ's death, burial, and ressurection, what baptism does for the believer is allow us to die with Christ, be buried with Christ, and be resurrected a new creature, walking in the newness of life just like (likeness) Christ! This is what baptism does for the believer.

IF we don't get baptized we have NOT crucified the old man of sin, which is why we die with Christ through baptism. (Rom. 6:4) Why else do you think we die with Christ trough baptism... it's so that the man of sin is crucifed, so that the body of sin might be destroyed (verse 6)! The man of sin is destroyed, which makes us free from sin (verse 7). We are *ONLY* free from sin if we have crucified the man of sin! That's why 2 Tim. 2:11 says that IF die with Christ, we will also LIVE with Christ. IF. IF. IF.

Romans 6:4 makes it quite clear that we die with Christ through BAPTISM:

Romans (MKJV)
4) Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life.

We HAVE to die with Christ IF we want to live with Christ! That is certainly essential to salvation, and this achieved through BAPTISM, as clearly shown above. Again, IT IS THOSE WHO HAVE DIED WITH CHRIST WHO ARE FREED FROM SIN (Rom. 6:7). Conditional! Essential!



To resemble, or to be like. Just like Christ died, was buried, and was ressurected, we too will share in those things, IF IF IF (conditional!) we are untied in the likeness of His death through baptism (Rom. 6:5).

There were only two baptisms ever ordained of God: 1) John the Baptist's (in water) and Jesus's(in the Spirit). One was a shadow "type". The other was the reality in Christ. One has "faded away". The other is here. Or as Paul said, there is now "ONE baptism" (Eph.4:5). So we are faced with the stark reality of choosing, as Paul did, which baptism truly washed away sin. And once that choice is made, we must (as we do the other ceremonial shadow types of the law) let the "shadow" go. Which is the real ONE baptism now? Water or Spirit? If we choose water, then we choose to cling to what Paul called "dead works" --- works that were once ordained by God, but which he has now done away with. If we choose Spirit baptism - then it becomes obvious that water baptism is a useless ceremony, just as all the other ceremonial works of the law have become. All these ceremonies were holy and right in their time. But they were "dead works" when God brought about a change through Christ Jesus.
Not an water baptism of John the baptist.


God Bless

 

[Clete]

c.Moore

I just have to say that you crack me up!
You've gone from one LONG post to several much shorter ones!
I LOVE IT! :bannana:
Please don't take this as criticism, you've made some excellent points, and I am actually reading your posts now!
Keep it up! :thumb:

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by c.moore
Hello Freak.

Thanks, but the Holy Spirit want to teach them and give them true understanding more than me , it`s just they want to be led by the flesh or water and do all the religious riturals to earn their obedience and make make themselves righteous for God.


God Bless you and your great ministry.:thumb:

It may be true that God wants them to understand even more than you do, and a humble attitude is commendable, but it is you that is making the arguments and as such deserve the credit.
God bless YOU and YOUR great ministry!

In Christ,
Clete

 

[freelight]

interpretations many, but God(Life) is ONE....

interpretations many, but God(Life) is ONE....

Salutations all,

This thread continues,.....on and on.....and on.....lol. Good God have mercy. I have shared my views succintly already. (however not always so brief). Just an added hilight:

Kevin continues to focus on this verse to prove or validate his view -

Kevin:

Romans 6:4 makes it quite clear that we die with Christ through BAPTISM:

Romans (MKJV)
4) Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life.


)================ It should be noted again that the above conceptual understanding of Pauls use of the word 'baptism' does not necessarily singularily imply the physical act of being immersed in water as in the mere ritual or ceremony. The concept of baptism implied here is the idea of 'immersion' (pouring out on; putting into) which is essentially spiritual immersion. This union in the Christ is expressly our identification with the whole process of death, burial, resurrection with Gods anointed One - it must be noted that this is an immersion into and an inner-merging with Christ in Spirit essentially. This is fundamental to those with spiritual understanding - the mere act of being dunked in water, however 'necessary' one claims such a ritual act is......does not necessarily enforce or make real this immersion in God as a spiritual reality experienced or received by the individual - for one can certainly go thru the motions of being baptized in water...and have no faith or understanding at all of what such an act represents, means or might otherwise impute or signify. Therefore such a mere act of dunking in water with no knowledge, understanding or faith can be more or less fruitless.

Our vital and essential baptism in Christ is spiritual union and identification with Christ - we are baptized into one Spirit - made to drink from one Rock. Kevin and other emphasizers of water baptism are simply expressing their belief and devotion of following such a physical procedure as a necessary protocol of 'obedience'.....while also expressing that the act itself must have a vital signficance which fulfills, satisfies and seals in some real sense ones faith in Christ - while they argue that water itself cannot save - it is nevertheless emphasized that water baptism is essential in obeying the Lord.....and an expression of ones faith (still I think somehow he feels that the act of water baptism actually imparts a spiritual transfer of sorts, if the recipient appropriates the act in faith). The arguments around this are interpretive, perspectal and influenced by ones understanding of essentials and the value of ritual in ones obedience to the 'gospel'. So...it is natural that the two primary views in contrast here in this thread are prominent among those who are in the faith and practicing christians. It is a debate over interpretation - both of scripture and personal preference.

What remains however is the value and significance of one being united to the Lord in spirit and truth - thru a living faith...wherein one is truly walking in the Light,.....having a genuine spiritual birth and renewing of mind.......expressing faith inspired by love and walking in a true dimension of new creation reality in the Spirit of God. This avails.


( Kevin and others will likely arise and emphasize, demand and try to zealously point out that water baptism is essential in obeying the Lords command - so highly important in ones 'obedience' to the command of Christ, etc. - others like myself may have different perspectives and insights into the importance of 'baptism{I use the term universally and in a spiritual sense} and while seeing that water baptism is and can indeed be a postive and gratifying experience for the recipient........it is the actual impartation of faith and experience of regeneration(death, burial, resurrection, ascension) in the Spirit of God that avails.......the Spirit of Christ and one being identified, wedded, at-one with Christ in the newness of Life that matters. One going thru the motions of water baptism with this genuine and vital understanding and faith....will have a wonderful and maybe even transforming experience - while others with little faith, knowledge or understanding may not experience such benefits - so I see that proper teaching is essential in the significance of water baptism <as imparted to the one being baptized>....among all christians no matter how stringent their views are on the subject in general.)

Our immersion in God as our Light and Life is our primary engagement - whatever ritual, act or demonstration serves to inspire and make our baptism in God more real and satisfying..substantializing and enhancing our faith in our merging.......then such is good and useful.


Blessings to all in the Light,


paul

 

[Kevin]

Freak,

Originally posted by Kevin
Freak,
Are you hoping that he will try and answer the questions that you can't, such as is repentance necessary for salvation?
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Kevin, you have received a "different" Jesus then I have. You're Jesus is not able to save with His life but needs water. My Jesus saves through His life!!!!

For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

The first thing I'll point out is that, again, true to your nature, you completely FAILED to answer the question.

Whose obedience are we trusting in for righteousness--ours or His?

Both. Without Christ's obedience to His Father, we would have no hope of salvation, because the death on the cross wouldn't have happened without His obedience.

Our obedience is also required. I we don't obey His commandments, we DONT know Him, and the truth is not in us (1 John 2:3-4).

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

C.Moore,

What do you say to that question?
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I would start on this question because it is short and easy.

Yes ,of course repentance is necessary to have salvation,

C.Moore, I would first like to applaud you for answering the question, something that your friend Freak is appearantly incapable of.

Second of all, I you just killed your faith *only* doctrine. Having faith is one thing, but repenting is a different matter:

Easton Bible Dictionary -

Faith
Faith is in general the persuasion of the mind that a certain statement is true (Phi_1:27; 2Th_2:13). Its primary idea is trust. A thing is true, and therefore worthy of trust. It admits of many degrees up to full assurance of faith, in accordance with the evidence on which it rests.

-------------------------------------------

Repentance
There are three Greek words used in the New Testament to denote repentance.
(1.) The verb metamelomai is used of a change of mind, such as to produce regret or even remorse on account of sin, but not necessarily a change of heart. This word is used with reference to the repentance of Judas (Mat_27:3).
(2.) Metanoeo, meaning to change one's mind and purpose, as the result of after knowledge.
(3.) This verb, with the cognate noun metanoia, is used of true repentance, a change of mind and purpose and life, to which remission of sin is promised.

Now here's an application that illustrates the differences. Let's say I'm a smoker. I have faith based on the evidence that is available about smoking that it is bad for my health. I am persuaded that it is true. -- there's the faith part.

Now, just because I believe that smoking is bad for me, but that does NOT mean that I'm going to REPENT from smoking - TO CHANGE MY MIND ABOUT SMOKING - even though I have FAITH that smoking is bad for me. Repentance is about CHANGE due to knowledge that one believes to be true - FAITH. Two different things.

So my point is, just because somebody has faith that Jesus Christ is the Son of God does not mean that they will repent of their sinful ways and turn to him. Faith only does not save.

I notice you didn`t try to commit on those other post about water baptism.

That's because I tire of having people copy and paste some other author's work and then expect me to go though and offer a line by line rebuttal. If you wan't to debate me, then do it, don't copy and past articles hoping that they will somehow vindicate your doctrine (which they don't).

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

Originally posted by c.moore
Why in John 3:5 does it says "be born of water and spirit", yet you say water baptism is not necessary now? And if it is not needed among Gentiles, why in Acts 10:47,48 does the Bible say that Gentiles were baptized in water?

ANSWER
Regarding being baptized in "water" and in "spirit" (John 3:5) --- Jesus explained what he meant in the very next verse (John 3:6): "that which is born of the flesh [water] is flesh [i.e. a human birth]; and that which is born of the spirit is spirit [i.e. a spiritual birth]. Jesus was saying that being born the first time in this flesh (water), was not enough. We must be born a second time (in Spirit). If being born "of water" was, as you say, water baptism, then a person must be born again, AGAIN!(Three times - once into this world in the flesh, a second time in water baptism, and a third time in Spirit baptism). Regarding Peter's baptizing of the Gentiles --- that was something that Peter and the first Jewish believers did. When Peter and those with him were astonished that the holy Ghost was poured out on the Gentiles, Peter "could not forbid them water", because that is what every Jew who repented prior to this happening did. If you were a Jew, and you repented - then you submitted to John the Baptist's baptism of repentance - and then, submitted again to Jesus' baptism in Spirit. There was no other way (in Peter's and the Jews' minds, that is). However, as the gospel was going forward, and as the truth of Jesus's baptism was being made known, God needed a new man. He needed a man that could explain (as a wise master builder) what it was that was necessary in the dispensation we are now in - and that man was the Apostle Paul. HE was the one who would explain how a person was made one of God's children NOW. Paul taught that "by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body". When a person receives the Spirit, it is God saying that the person receiving it has repented.

God Bless
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Kevin I am really suprised and shocked you didn`t commit on the three baptism doctrine which you claim to be your biblical doctrine.

I didn't ask that question in the first place! You are confusing me with somebody else. I typically address things are are pertaining to me, not somebody else.