The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[Clete]

Originally posted by Kevin
c.moore,

When one repents and is baptized, its because of their faith, and therefore their faith has saved them, because they acted upon it.

What other acts must we perform besides baptism to be saved if any? Or is baptism the act that "prooves" we have faith.

Again, faith "only" claims that a person needs "only" to believe in Jesus, and that's all they need. They don't have to repent of their sinful ways. They can continue living a life of sin (disobedience to God) and still make it to heaven as long as they have faith. Now that's an absurd doctrine,...

No, thats the gospel!

but that's what faith "only" teaches. If you throw in ANY other condition for salvation, such as repentance, then faith "only" is defeated, for they are two seperate things.

This is a false dicodomy. They are not two different things. You need them to be, to win this debate, but they not. Repentence from disbelief to belief is real repentence, and the only repentence that matters when you saved by grace and not works.

Just because your TV hero's preach easy believism and the sinners prayer doesn't make it right.

My hero was never on TV but he was accused of preaching what you call "easy believism"! His name was Paul.

You won't find their system of conversion anywhere in the Bible. "Say this prayer with me and you're a Christian!".... right. It's not even the believer's own prayer! They are just reciting what the TV Evangelist is saying!

I agree with you here accept that if one sincerely means what they are saying when they make that recital then they are saved, even if the guy on TV isn't.
Be careful, not to judge presuptuously! Judging rightly is one thing. But do not pretend to know the heart of someone you've never met!

You DON'T change God's plan of salvation to make it more appealing to people.

You have changed it to be more appealling to yoursself!

The Gospel is as follows...

Romans 10:9-10 "9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

nothing more, nothing less.

Notice confession is made unto salvation. Not confession and water baptism, and cleaning up your life (or what you would call "repentence"), etc,etc.

 

[Kevin]

You shouldn't ask for seconds when you haven't finished what's on you plate...

You shouldn't ask for seconds when you haven't finished what's on you plate...

Clete,

So you return from the woodwork, not addressing the other arguments that you failed to answer. Have you yet figured out that Ephesus is a Gentile church? That of course leads into my Revelation arguments, which you can't touch because of your inability to see that the book was written to GENTILE churches. The book of Revelation was written off the coast of Ephesus, way up in Gentile country. Have you explained why the traditional tomb of John is located there (since you claim none of the 12 visited the Gentiles other than Peter in Acts 10)? Have you explained the dispensation(s?) to come when the people in Matt. 25 are judged on judgment day and were sent to hell for their lack of good works? Works doesn't mattter now... but it will in some other future dispensation? Right....

Have you figured out why Paul said what was important was obeying God's commandments if faith "only" is all that supposedly matters?

What other acts must we perform besides baptism to be saved if any? Or is baptism the act that "prooves" we have faith.

Repentance, confession and leading a life obedient to God's commandments.

Again, faith "only" claims that a person needs "only" to believe in Jesus, and that's all they need. They don't have to repent of their sinful ways. They can continue living a life of sin (disobedience to God) and still make it to heaven as long as they have faith. Now that's an absurd doctrine,...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


No, thats the gospel!

:doh: That's just downright sad that you believe that you can live a complete life of disobedience to God, sinning in every way you want, but as long as you believe in Christ you will supposedly be saved. And you call that the gospel? Sad. I guess Paul wasn't serious when he said that keeping the commandments of God is important.

but that's what faith "only" teaches. If you throw in ANY other condition for salvation, such as repentance, then faith "only" is defeated, for they are two seperate things.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is a false dicodomy. They are not two different things.

Yes they are. Easton Bible Dictionary -

Faith
Faith is in general the persuasion of the mind that a certain statement is true (Phi_1:27; 2Th_2:13). Its primary idea is trust. A thing is true, and therefore worthy of trust. It admits of many degrees up to full assurance of faith, in accordance with the evidence on which it rests.

-------------------------------------------

Repentance
There are three Greek words used in the New Testament to denote repentance.
(1.) The verb metamelomai is used of a change of mind, such as to produce regret or even remorse on account of sin, but not necessarily a change of heart. This word is used with reference to the repentance of Judas (Mat_27:3).
(2.) Metanoeo, meaning to change one's mind and purpose, as the result of after knowledge.
(3.) This verb, with the cognate noun metanoia, is used of true repentance, a change of mind and purpose and life, to which remission of sin is promised.

Now here's an application that illustrates the differences. Let's say I'm a smoker. I have faith based on the evidence that is available about smoking that it is bad for my health. I am persuaded that it is true. -- there's the faith part.

Now, just because I believe that smoking is bad for me, but that does NOT mean that I'm going to REPENT from smoking - TO CHANGE MY MIND ABOUT SMOKING - even though I have FAITH that smoking is bad for me. Repentance is about CHANGE due to knowledge that one believes to be true - FAITH. Two different things.

You need them to be, to win this debate, but they not.

Then consider it won. If faith was the same as repentance, then the definitions would be the same, but they are NOT. Repent is a verb. Faith is a noun. If they are the same, they should be interchangable, right?

Look at this verse:

Revelation 2:5 (NKJ)
5) Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from it's place - unless you repent.

Now, let's see what that verse looks like with the words "repent" replaced with "faith":

Revelation 2:5 (NKJ)
5) Remember therefore from where you have fallen; faith and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from it's place - unless you faith.

The first one, the one in the Bible, makes perfect sense, because you can tell somebody to repent- to change - it's a verb!

The second one doesn't make sense at all. Go tell someone to faith. Try it, and see their reaction. Hey Clete I want you to faith. :nono: How about - Hey Clete I want you to repent. :thumb: Much better.

Just because your TV hero's preach easy believism and the sinners prayer doesn't make it right.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


My hero was never on TV but he was accused of preaching what you call "easy believism"! His name was Paul.

Hmmm... Paul, ah yes... I know who you're talking about, this is the guy who said that circumcision and uncircumcision doesn't matter, but keeping the commandments of God. Striking resemblence to what John said in 1 John 2:3-4. Coincidence?

I agree with you here accept that if one sincerely means what they are saying when they make that recital then they are saved, even if the guy on TV isn't.
Be careful, not to judge presuptuously! Judging rightly is one thing. But do not pretend to know the heart of someone you've never met!

The only things I've judged here is the fact that the sinner's prayer is unbiblical and that people often recite what somebody else says, which we have no scriptual authority for. I am attacking the method of conversion, not the people's heart. I feel bad for them that they are being mislead.

You DON'T change God's plan of salvation to make it more appealing to people.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You have changed it to be more appealling to yoursself!

Hardly. I can back how I convert people with the Bible. Show me where ONE conversion consisted of somebody saying a sinners prayer. Just one will do.

Romans 10:9-10 "9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

nothing more, nothing less.

Notice confession is made unto salvation. Not confession and water baptism, and cleaning up your life (or what you would call "repentence"), etc,etc.

Yes, that verse does indeed leave out repentance. Nothing more, nothing less eh? Then where's the examples of such a conversion? Just one will do. It shouldn't be hard if that's it - nothing more - nothing less. Where are they?

When Paul was converted, he was baptized - calling on the name of the Lord. Confessing goes hand in hand with baptism. Why didn't he just believe and confess - nothing more nothing less?

Another example:

Acts 8:36-39 (NKJ)
36) Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?"
37) Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." and he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
38) So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.
39) Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.

Yet another example of confession upon being baptized.

And if Romans 10:9-10 is all of it, then why did Paul go to so much trouble writing about baptism a few chapters back in chapter 6, which clearly shows it's necessity?

Let's see how Paul himself converted people:

Acts 19:4-5 (MKJV)
4) And Paul said, John truly baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe into Him coming after him, that is, into Jesus Christ.
5) And hearing, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Belief and baptism is how PAUL converted these guys (exactly like Mark 16:16). Where's the confession here? Did Paul forget? This is what happens when you try to make ONE verse the entire Bible... but I guess that's why you guys are dispyies... arbitrarily picking and choosing verses and whamo - a new dispensation!

The fact remains that you can't point to a SINGLE place in the Bible that irrefutably shows this new dispensation that you say Paul brought occurs. All you can do is take verses and try to make them say what you want them to say.

I on the other hand can clearly show where the current dispensation happened - Matt. 28:19-20. Nowhere will you find Christ saying ANYWHERE that there is a new gospel.

Oh, and one more thing about Romans 10:9-10. You say nothing more, nothing less, and that will get you saved right? Do you realize that confessing with the mouth is a WORK? I thought faith only was enough...

 

[Clete]

Re: You shouldn't ask for seconds when you haven't finished what's on you plate...

Re: You shouldn't ask for seconds when you haven't finished what's on you plate...

Originally posted by Kevin
Clete,

So you return from the woodwork, not addressing the other arguments that you failed to answer.

I have not failed to answer, you simply refuse to listen. Your presupositions color not only your interpretation of scripture but your understanding of what I say! I will therefore, not debate you on interpretation of scripture and will ignore any misrepresentations of what I say (mean). I will debate your presupositions if you like but only that.

Your definition of the Gospel is a primary presuposition and when asked what else we must do beside believe you said...

Repentance, confession and leading a life obedient to God's commandments.

Which commandments? Specifically.

and you said...

I guess Paul wasn't serious when he said that keeping the commandments of God is important.

That depends on which commandments you think he talking about.


Then there was this...

Yes they are. Easton Bible Dictionary -

Faith
Faith is in general the persuasion of the mind that a certain statement is true (Phi_1:27; 2Th_2:13). Its primary idea is trust. A thing is true, and therefore worthy of trust. It admits of many degrees up to full assurance of faith, in accordance with the evidence on which it rests.

-------------------------------------------

Repentance
There are three Greek words used in the New Testament to denote repentance.
(1.) The verb metamelomai is used of a change of mind, such as to produce regret or even remorse on account of sin, but not necessarily a change of heart. This word is used with reference to the repentance of Judas (Mat_27:3).
(2.) Metanoeo, meaning to change one's mind and purpose, as the result of after knowledge.
(3.) This verb, with the cognate noun metanoia, is used of true repentance, a change of mind and purpose and life, to which remission of sin is promised.

This is what I'm talking about when I say you don't listen to what I'm saying. Oh, you pay attention to every word I type but none of the meaning! You have to resort to attacking an argument I didn't even make!
Yes, I said that they aren't two different things. But then I said, "Repentence from disbelief to belief is real repentence", which explains what I meant by that statment. Of course they aren't precisely the same thing, but my point was that belief IS repentance (from unbelief). Thus, this verse makes sense....
Romans 10:9-10 "9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Again, your definition of the Gospel is key here. What, must we repent of? Specifically. And to what extent?

The only things I've judged here is the fact that the sinner's prayer is unbiblical and that people often recite what somebody else says, which we have no scriptual authority for. I am attacking the method of conversion, not the people's heart. I feel bad for them that they are being mislead.

With this much I agree (depending on what your definition of "the sinners prayer is). Perhaps, I read more into it than I should have.

Yes, that verse does indeed leave out repentance. Nothing more, nothing less eh? Then where's the examples of such a conversion? Just one will do. It shouldn't be hard if that's it - nothing more - nothing less. Where are they?

When Paul was converted, he was baptized - calling on the name of the Lord. Confessing goes hand in hand with baptism. Why didn't he just believe and confess - nothing more nothing less?


Another example:

Acts 8:36-39 (NKJ)
36) Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?"
37) Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." and he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
38) So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.
39) Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.

Yet another example of confession upon being baptized.

And if Romans 10:9-10 is all of it, then why did Paul go to so much trouble writing about baptism a few chapters back in chapter 6, which clearly shows it's necessity?

Let's see how Paul himself converted people:

Acts 19:4-5 (MKJV)
4) And Paul said, John truly baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe into Him coming after him, that is, into Jesus Christ.
5) And hearing, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Belief and baptism is how PAUL converted these guys (exactly like Mark 16:16). Where's the confession here? Did Paul forget? This is what happens when you try to make ONE verse the entire Bible... but I guess that's why you guys are dispyies... arbitrarily picking and choosing verses and whamo - a new dispensation!

The fact remains that you can't point to a SINGLE place in the Bible that irrefutably shows this new dispensation that you say Paul brought occurs. All you can do is take verses and try to make them say what you want them to say.

A response here would require merely a different interpretaion of scripture based on a different set of presupositions. I won't waste my time reenterpreting it since your response would be simply to re-reenterpret it. Get my point?
And by the way, I find it insulting and unreasonable for you to say that we make one verse the whole bible. Dispensationism provides a complete, logical, sytematic interpretation of not just the bible itself but of history and what God is doing and has already done through history and why.
I have not always been a dispensationalist and have not come to it lightly but because it presents the most complete and logically consistant way of explaining questions, contradictions, etc. that otherwise can not be reconciled in any consistant way.

And, finally...

Oh, and one more thing about Romans 10:9-10. You say nothing more, nothing less, and that will get you saved right? Do you realize that confessing with the mouth is a WORK? I thought faith only was enough...

This is a foolish argument, and shows the extent to which you will go to put people under law. Speaking is not a work of the flesh. Ask any wife if she feels any obligation to her husband because he uttered the words "I do"? A work is something you are compensated for in some way. If you expect something in return for saying 'I love you' to someone, then you are lying as you speak the words!

 

[Kevin]

Clete,

I have not failed to answer, you simply refuse to listen.

Oh really? I asked you, after giving scriptual evidence, if Ephesus was a Gentile church, yes or no. You "failed to answer".

Ephesians 2:11-12 (KJV)
11) Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Based on that, is the church of Ephesus Gentile or not? Yes or No?

You have also failed to answer why the traditional tomb of John is found in Ephesus, a Gentile church, when you say that none of the 12 visited the Gentiles exept Peter in Acts 10.

You have also failed to show that a future dispensation will come when works are necessary for salvation. This is in reference to Matt. 25:41-46 where they were sent to hell for their lack of works. You said that is a future dispensation beyond this supposed new dispensation. I have questioned you about this and have received NO reply.

Yes indeed, you have failed to answer points such as these. Prove me wrong.. show me where you answered these questions and that I supposedly just don't listen.

Repentance, confession and leading a life obedient to God's commandments.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Which commandments? Specifically.

See for yourself:

Matt. 28:19-20 (MKJV)
19) Therefore go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20) teaching them to observe all things, whatever I commanded you. And, behold, I am with you all the days until the end of the world. Amen.

I'm not about to go through the gospels and list out His commandments. If you want to know, read.

and you said...


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess Paul wasn't serious when he said that keeping the commandments of God is important.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



That depends on which commandments you think he talking about.

See above.

This is what I'm talking about when I say you don't listen to what I'm saying. Oh, you pay attention to every word I type but none of the meaning! You have to resort to attacking an argument I didn't even make!

Then you shouldn't say they are the same thing, when the fact is, they are NOT.

Yes, I said that they aren't two different things. But then I said, "Repentence from disbelief to belief is real repentence",

So that's "REAL" repentance? Just turning from unbelief? So says you, but there's more to it than that. True repentance is changing your mind and heart to follow Christ and give up your former ways of sin, thus walking in the Spirit. If you simply believe, and you say true repentance=turning from unblief, that excludes repenting from your sinful ways and habits. It is NOT complete repentance. It is very possible to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and yet one wouldn't necessarily give up his or her sinful lifestyle. To follow Christ means that you not only believe in Him, but become obedient to Him as well, thus giving up your sinful ways.

Again, your definition of the Gospel is key here. What, must we repent of? Specifically. And to what extent?

See above, but here's a great example of things we are to repent of - works of the flesh:

Galatians 5:19-21 (MKJV)
19) Now the works of the flesh are clearly revealed, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lustfulness,
20) idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, fightings, jealousies, angers, rivalries, divisions, heresies,
21) envyings, murders, drunkennesses, revelings, and things like these; of which I tell you before, as I also said before, that they who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

As for my definition of the Gospel, I'll copy and paste something I wrote to C.Moore:

I would preach Christ and Him crucified to them, just as the apostles did, and to those who believed, I would tell them that they need to repent of their sinful ways and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins... just like in Acts 2!!! And yes, I would tell them that they need to remain obedient to Christ to the point of death.

Is this what you're looking for?

With this much I agree (depending on what your definition of "the sinners prayer is).

Heh... just turn on your TV and listen to them.

A response here would require merely a different interpretaion of scripture based on a different set of presupositions. I won't waste my time reenterpreting it since your response would be simply to re-reenterpret it. Get my point?

So be it, if you don't want to respond that's on you. But that doesn't change the fact that you can't point to a single place in the Bible where your "new" dispensation began. Nor can you show me ONE example of conversion where somebody simply believed and confessed.

And by the way, I find it insulting and unreasonable for you to say that we make one verse the whole bible.

Did you or did you not say that salvtion is Romans 10:9-10, "nothing more, nothing less?" My mistake, that's two verses, not one. In essence, that's what you've done by insinuating that Romans 10:9-10 is all we need for salvation, which does indeed exclude repentance, full repentance, not just repenting from unbelief.

Dispensationism provides a complete, logical, sytematic interpretation of not just the bible itself but of history and what God is doing and has already done through history and why.

Hardly. It leaves many things unanswered (see my questions to you), and does not make sense. Nor is there any place in the Bible which clearly shows this supposed "new dispensation", in contrast to the very clear dispensation seen in Matt. 28: 19-20. It's basically saying that God couldn't get it right the first time after offering His Son on the cross for salvation.

Oh, and one more thing about Romans 10:9-10. You say nothing more, nothing less, and that will get you saved right? Do you realize that confessing with the mouth is a WORK? I thought faith only was enough...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



This is a foolish argument, and shows the extent to which you will go to put people under law. Speaking is not a work of the flesh.

Well of course speaking is not a work of the flesh! The fact that you would say such a thing makes me wonder if you know what works of the flesh are! :think: These are works of the flesh:

Galatians 5:19-21 (MKJV)
19) Now the works of the flesh are clearly revealed, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lustfulness,
20) idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, fightings, jealousies, angers, rivalries, divisions, heresies,
21) envyings, murders, drunkennesses, revelings, and things like these; of which I tell you before, as I also said before, that they who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

I know what works of the flesh are, and I would never imply that speaking is one of them! Speaking, while not a work of the flesh, IS a work. ANYTHING that is required of man is a work, even belief in Christ:

John 6: 28-29 (NKJ)
28) Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
29) Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

So my point still stands... confession with the mouth IS a work that man does unto salvation! That right there kills the notion that faith "only" saves, because even you said that those two verses are what counts - nothing more, nothing less - and one of them includes a work.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Kevin
Still no answer from Freak...

I have answered you, Kevin. You have decided to remain under the Law where there is no liberty. You have undermined the Gospel with your continual insistence on works for salvation. Like Paul I'm astonished....

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

 

[c.moore]

Hello Kevin

How do you like this salvation math do you agree??

Step 1 salvation NOW

believe trusting in Jesus as Lord + repentance and being washed in the blood of Jesus + letting Jesus come in your heart= SAVED and Born again NOW.



Step two : After you are saved Now

In your Christian walk is obedience and showing your fruits you are saved for real NOW , and showing your Love for Christ .

start knowing Christ by studying the bible, and finding your instructions, and will of God for your life + get baptized in water is a symbol of step 1 + start having you flesh die to your old life, by not practising sins and being obedient to what you read in your instruction book the bible + witness to other that Christ has saved you and they can be free also make disciples + go to church and have fellowship with other christians that are spiritual led + pay your tithes , and offerings+ seek and ask for spiritual gifts, and get a vision for your life.

This is how I set somebody off on their christian walk , and there is more like maybe giving up cicarettes , fornification acts , false thinking, lieing,cheating,stealing, swearing or cursing, lustful things , addiction to drug alcohol , bad company or being aroud unsaved friends etc

How would you explain you salvation message in the same mathematically way Kevin??


God Bless

 

[Kevin]

Freak,

I have answered you, Kevin.

Where? Show me.

You have decided to remain under the Law where there is no liberty. You have undermined the Gospel with your continual insistence on works for salvation. Like Paul I'm astonished....

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

Ah yes.... this is the account of Paul speaking to the Galatians. You do realize that what he was warning about were Judizers (spelling?) attempting to get Christians physically circumcised, and thus be yoked back into the Mosaic Law, right?

The questions I asked you have nothing to do with the Mosaic Law. Among other things, it speaks of the commandments of Christ - dare you say that the commandments of Christ are equal to the Mosaic Law? Dare you say that Paul would insuate that Pual would warn against keeping His Lord's commandments? I don't think so, for Paul himself said:

1 Corinthians 7:19 (KJV)
19) Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Would you dare accuse Paul of trying to put people under "the law" by saying that what's important is keeping the commandmetns of God? I also agree with Paul, that keeping the commandments of God is surely important.

Again, you haven't answered my questions. I'm waiting.

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

How do you like this salvation math do you agree??

Step 1 salvation NOW

believe trusting in Jesus as Lord + repentance and being washed in the blood of Jesus + letting Jesus come in your heart= SAVED and Born again NOW.

Looks good for the most part. I would like you to clarify how we are washed by the blood of Jesus (which I contend is baptism), which takes away our sins.

Step two : After you are saved Now

In your Christian walk is obedience and showing your fruits you are saved for real NOW , and showing your Love for Christ .

There is no "saved for real NOW". Either you are in a state of salvation, or you're not. Plain and simple.

start knowing Christ by studying the bible, and finding your instructions, and will of God for your life + get baptized in water is a symbol of step 1

Uh... no. Baptism in not a symbol of step one (being saved). Rather, it is a part of step one. See Acts 2:38. While baptism is symbolic of Christ death, burial, and ressurection, it is commanded by God for us to do so that our sins can be washed away. For by partaking in baptism, we ourselves are crucifying our man of sin, thus, being FREE from sin (Rom. 6:7). It is this act that makes us dead to sin, but ALIVE to God (Rom. 6:11). So upon obeying the command of baptism, our sins our forgiven (Acts 2:38). That is how the blood of Jesus cleanses our sins, because we have obeyed what Christ commanded to do for the remission of sins -- baptism!

People were baptized immediately after believing. They didn't wait. Baptism is part of the conversion process. After one has crucified our man of sin, thus becoming alive to God, we have been converted, and are then in a state of salvation.

How would you explain you salvation message in the same mathematically way Kevin??

Hear. Believe. Repent. Confess Christ. Be batptized. Live an obedient life to His commandments. Upon Judgment Day, we will find out if we are saved or not.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Kevin

Would you dare accuse Paul of trying to put people under "the law" by saying that what's important is keeping the commandmetns of God? I also agree with Paul, that keeping the commandments of God is surely important.

Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

 

[Kevin]

Freak,

Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

I'm glad you realize we are no longer under the Mosaic Law. Now try and actually answering my question:

1 Corinthians 7:19 (KJV)
19) Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Would you dare accuse Paul of trying to put people under "the law" by saying that what's important is keeping the commandmetns of God?

Do you think that the commmandments of Christ are part of the Mosaic Law?

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Kevin
Freak,



I'm glad you realize we are no longer under the Mosaic Law. Now try and actually answering my question:

1 Corinthians 7:19 (KJV)
19) Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Would you dare accuse Paul of trying to put people under "the law" by saying that what's important is keeping the commandmetns of God?

Do you think that the commmandments of Christ are part of the Mosaic Law?

And the commandment is to love God and others.

 

[Kevin]

Freak,

Answer my question:

1 Corinthians 7:19 (KJV)
19) Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Would you dare accuse Paul of trying to put people under "the law" by saying that what's important is keeping the commandmetns of God?

Oh, and I forgot the age old question that you can't answer: Is repentance necessary for salvation, yes or no?

 

[freelight]

re-pent........

re-pent........

Originally posted by Kevin

Oh, and I forgot the age old question that you can't answer: Is repentance necessary for salvation, yes or no?

)==========Hi Kev,.............I would say that repentance is necessary for a 'change' to take place in ones consciousness - from what I understand.....'repent' means to 'have another mind' ; 'change ones mind' ; 'turn', etc. Jesus and his disciples (also Johns) went forth saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand". So......repentance is necessary for a change in ones mind....thereby affecting ones mentality, attitude, receptivity, heart, spiritual condition - Paul teaches something along the same lines - 'renewing the mind'. So....I would say a shift in consciousness is essential for the transformation or change of ones soul - affecting his direction and vision.


paul

 

[c.moore]

salvation message

salvation message

Hi Kevin PART 1

Thank you for responding to my formular I think this will give me the complete understanding of your salvation doctrine, and why , and where we Have another gospel.

You said:

Looks good for the most part. I would like you to clarify how we are washed by the blood of Jesus (which I contend is baptism), which takes away our sins.

I think this might help you to understand our the good news and our salvation gospel when I explain it this way, specially when I see your hang up in water baptism is the works of taking away your sins and not the blood of Jesus like most bible Christian see it.

The Gospel, strictly taken, contains neither ‘claims,' commands, nor threatenings, but is glad tidings of salvation to sinful men through Christ, revealed in doctrines and promises; and these revealed to men as sinners, stout-hearted, and far from righteousness. In the good news from heaven of help in God through Jesus Christ, for lost, self-destroyed creatures of Adam's race, there are no precepts. All these, the command to believe and repent not excepted, belong to and flow from the law. The Gospel is the report of a peace purchased by the. BLOOD OF CHRIST for poor sinners, and offered to them. The Gospel brings a sound of liberty to captives, of pardon to condemned criminals, of peace to rebels, a sound of life to the dead, and of salvation to them that lie on the borders of hell and condemnation. It is not, indeed, the Gospel of itself, but Christ revealed therein, that heals the sinner. It is Christ that is to be received; but He is received as offered in the Gospel, and the Gospel holds out Christ to the eye of faith. The Gospel is with respect to Christ what the pole was with respect to the serpent. The Gospel does not therefore urge upon us claims which we cannot implement, but it places before us the free grace of God in Christ Jesus, and permits us to claim the Son of God as our Redeemer, and through Him to enjoy "all things" pertaining to the life of faith and the hope of glory. We are asked to give God nothing for salvation. He is the great Giver. Our proper position is to stand before Him as beggars in the attitude of receiving. "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?" (Rom. 8:32).

THE Gospel of the grace of God does not consist in pressing the duty defined by the words, "Give your heart to Christ" although that is often unwisely pressed upon inquirers after salvation as if it were the Gospel; but the very essence of the Gospel is contained in the words, "Having liberty to enter into the holiest BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS, by a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; and having an high-priest over the house of God; let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith," (Heb. 10:19-22).

"Give your heart to Christ," is rather law than Gospel. It is most proper that it should be done, for God himself demands it; but merely urging the doing of it is far short of the Gospel The true Gospel is, Accept the free gift of salvation from wrath and sin by receiving Jesus himself, and all the benefits He purchased with "HIS OWN BLOOD" (Acts 20:28), and your heart will be His in a moment, being given to Him, not as a matter of law, but of love; for, if you have the love of His heart poured into yours by His blessed Spirit, you will feel yourself under the constraining influence of a spontaneous spiritual impulse to give Him in return your heart, and all that you possess. It is right to give Him your heart, but unless you first receive His, you will never give Him yours.

The design of the following pages is to exhibit "the true grace of God" "without the works of the law," and only "by THE BLOOD OF Jesus," (Heb. 10:19). Our great aim is the glory of Christ in the conversion of souls and the means employed to accomplish that end are simple statements concerning the great Scripture truth, that we are saved at once, entirely, and for ever, by the grace of God "who is rich in mercy," and that we have no part at all in the matter of our salvation save the beggar's part, of accepting it as a " free gift," procured for us by "THE PRECIOUS BLOOD OF CHRIST," (1 Pet. 1:19). And, as many are struggling to get up something of their own as a price to bring to God to buy salvation of Him, we have taken pains to shew the entire uselessness of all such efforts; and have pointed out, we think, with some degree of clearness, and by a variety of ways, that all true religion has a distinct beginning, and that that beginning dates from the time when a sinner stands at Calvary conscious of his utterly ruined condition, and realises the truth that Jesus so completely satisfied God for sin, that He could say before He gave up the ghost, "It is finished," (John 19:30); so that " we have redemption through HIS BLOOD, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace," (Eph. 1:7). "He his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree," (1 Pet. 2:24), and thereby, "having made peace by THE BLOOD OF HIS CROSS," (Col. 1:20), we may at once be "made nigh by THE BLOOD OF CHRIST," (Eph. 2:13), without anything of our own. That God who hath set Him forth, "a propitiation through faith in HIS BLOOD, to declare his righteousness " (Rom. 3:25) in pardoning sin, will pardon ALL sin through faith in Him, for His own testimony is, that "THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST His Son cleanseth us from all sin," (1 John 1:7).

"THE BLOOD OF JESUS" is the ground of peace with God to every believing sinner below, and it will be the subject of the everlasting song of the redeemed above. It is our ALL for acceptance with God, for pardon of sin, for "justification of life," for adoption into God's family, for holiness and glory. As the altar with its streaming blood stood at the very entrance of the ancient tabernacle, so the Lord Jesus Christ and "THE BLOOD OF HIS CROSS" meet us at the very entrance of the church of the redeemed. The blood-shedding of Jesus as "a propitiation for our sins" (1 John 2:2) lies at the very threshold of the Christian life. It is the alphabet of Christian experience to know the value of "THE BLOOD OF SPRINKLING," (Heb. 12:24). The first step in the Christian course is into the "fountain opened," (Zech. 13:1).

THE BLOOD OF JESUS" is our great and only theme in the following pages. May the Divine Spirit make them to every reader "the power of God unto salvation," (Rom. 1:16).

In closing these prefatory pages, the writer may remark, that although it would have been both easy and delightful to have written it wholly himself, he has purposely introduced extracts from various writers belonging to different sections of the Church of Christ-Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Independents, Baptists, &c., that the anxious inquirer may enjoy the benefit of having saving truth presented to him in a variety of aspects, and may, at the same time, feel the moral effect of observing the perfect agreement of Spirit-taught Christians, in the different branches of the Church of Christ, with regard to the one way of a sinner's acceptance with God, " BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS."

It is again issued with the earnest prayer that the Holy Spirit would so bless it to all inquirers who read it, that they may "enter into the holiest by THE BLOOD OF JESUS," (Heb. 10:19), and learn to sing, "with joyful lips," the redemption-song: - Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in His OWN BLOOD, and hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen,," (Rev. 1:5,6).

This is from another writter which I agree with and how I teach other about what washes our sins away, this is found here if you want to research it and and find why the blood of Jesus washes the sin away and not the water.
http://www.fundamentalbiblechurch.org/BloodofJesus/fbcbjp.htm

How Our Sins Are Taken Away By The Blood of Jesus

http://www.fundamentalbiblechurch.org/BloodofJesus/fbcbjc2.htm


Another link on the water Grave as an sybolic of the Lamb of God baptism or the lamb wahing out sins away is this.

The guilt associated with all human sin could, in Israel, be removed through the tiresome round of divinely prescribed animal sacrifices. But these could never bring forgiveness: "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sin" (Hebrews 10:4). The awfulness of human sin demanded a greater sacrifice. But now in Jesus, the divine representative, all sin could be forgiven. He is "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29).

God's Grand Design

In further revealing God's grand design for mankind, Jesus unveiled a new covenant. Now the same divine Law would no longer be written on stones but in the human heart. The power that enabled Jesus to live in perfect harmony with the heavenly Father was now - through his sinless life, death and resurrection - made available to humankind, God would dwell in us by means of His Spirit and we could literally become His sons and daughters, and brothers and sisters of Jesus His Son.

But it required ,repentance,, - a genuine sorrow for our transgression of the divine Law which results in a changed life. Repentance demands mature reflection on past and present behavior. It demands an understanding of "sin". It demands a readiness to count the awesome cost of discipleship - to the point of martyrdom, if need be.

It required, too, the knowledge that only the sacrifice of "the Lamb of God" - Jesus of Nazareth, God,s appointed victim - was sufficient to bear away all the sin of mankind.

Baptism, then, is possible only for someone of mature mind.

A Watery Grave

In the Scriptures there is but one form of baptism. That's by the submerging of the repentant individual in water. The apostle Paul describes it as a watery grave: "Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him through baptism into death" (Romans 6:1-11). And emerging from this watery grave - we would die if we stayed there! - is symbolic of our resurrection as "a new creature in Christ" (6:4-5). Mere sprinkling - or hosing - fails to convey this significance.

Rising out of the water, every sin has been forgiven. We are clean! The Lamb of God, Jesus of Nazareth, has taken all the sin of each of us upon himself through his suffering and his sacrificial death on the hill of Golgotha - "the place of the skull". His life blood, lanced by a Roman spear, Poured from his lacerated body.

Also significant in baptismal symbolism is the concept of being washed - again perfectly represented by immersion. Paul was confronted by Jesus for persecuting believers. He said: "Arise and be baptized [Gk. = immersed], and wash away your sins" (Acts 22:16, Hebrews 10:22). The water here is symbolic of Christ's blood shed for us: "...to him who loved us and washed us from our sins in his own blood" (Revelation 1:5).

Your Choice

Every one of us - all mankind - has "fallen short of the glory of God". His plan for each of us is that we share in His glory - a process that requires we become spiritually mature. By nature God is absolutely pure, and none of us can enter the divine Family loaded with our sin. God's love for us has in Jesus the Messiah provided a path to forgiveness. In baptism we acknowledge our determination to change our inborn hostility to God and His law "repentance"), emerging from the water clean in His eyes through the righteousness of Jesus.

God's "glory" is not some ethereal pie-in-the-sky. He offers us the choice of extinction - or of living for ever in partnership with Him as joint-heirs with Jesus Christ in a real material universe in which the divine plan will develop endlessly.

The example of Jesus, himself immersed by John, and the example of the practice of the early church confirms that baptism is the prescribed path into the Body of Christ, his church. It is symbolic of our death to the 'old man' - that nature we brought into the world with us. It is symbolic of our 'resurrection' as a new creation in Christ. It is symbolic of the washing away of our sin - our falling short of the glory of the Creator - in the shed blood of our Saviour.


I`ll continue on the next postKevin.

God Bless

 

[c.moore]

Hello Kevin

Let`s continue part 2

I would like toask you kevin what is more important the blood of Jesus that takesand washes our sins awayor is it the getting wet and water baptism that takes our sins away and the waterH2O that washes or sins and make us white as snow???

If you think or believe that both is needed which one come first the blood of Jesus washing or the water baptism???

People were baptized immediately after believing. They didn't wait. Baptism is part of the conversion process. After one has crucified our man of sin, thus becoming alive to God, we have been converted, and are then in a state of salvation.

So Kevin, if the case is to be put in water after believing then Billy Graham and hundred of other evangelist like Rienhard Bonnke who has over 1.5 million people get saved or believe in his alter call are not saved because there was no beach or poolls to be baptized in is this true???

Also When a person maybe believes on a street by witnessing and it is a monday, and the church is only open on sunday and the person hasn`t been baptized yet and that person get killed or dies before sunday in your doctrine this person will have to go to hell because he didn`t get water baptized for his sins to be forgiven and can`t be saved is this true???

Also if a church is so large that they only have a baptism every 3 month or more will all the thousands of people in between that believe and repented, and was not watered baptized also go to hell because they didn`t get their sins washed away in water and didn`t do like the bible say`s in Acts 2:38????

Uh... no. Baptism in not a symbol of step one (being saved). Rather, it is a part of step one. See Acts 2:38. While baptism is symbolic of Christ death, burial, and ressurection, it is commanded by God for us to do so that our sins can be washed away

What do you mean by saying a symbolic, i though by your belief and doctrine the water was the thing which is what put us on way to salvation and on judgement day you might be saved after all you have done and obeyed, and commandment kept???

Hear. Believe. Repent. Confess Christ. Be batptized. Live an obedient life to His commandments. Upon Judgment Day, we will find out if we are saved or not.

After going hrough a christian life and doing all you can do and obey , it seems like in your doctrine you are still not sure of your salvation because it is not judgement day na d even after water baptism , and all the belief and obeying Acts 2 you are still on the hoping list to everlaster life.
what do you think the scripture say`s NOW IS THE TIME OF SALVATION NOW?
The scripture didn`t say Latter is the time of savation or after Judgement dayis your time of salvation.

This is why I ask how many people didn`t you bring to the Lord with your doctrine, because your salvation message is like a hoping and wishing, gospel, and alot of hard works.

Why do people make the Gospel so hard?

Most people don`t believe the gospel we preach from the bible because it is to easy and to free, and the yoke is easy and the burden is taken away , and people can`t accept this easy way christ made for us.

This is why you have so much trouble in debating with other people like freak over baptism because you are doing this baptism in a religious way which include trying to do God a favor , and do religious works , and ritual to show God something you are doing without knowing that we can do nothing without Him and we are nothing without Jesus , this is why God hate boasting and trying to show God like what i did, nd look what I OBEYED, OR look what commandments I did, this is showing off you might and power and not that power what God is doing through you and with you, but maybe this is another topic i need to debate on latter.

I think after yiou commit on this post it will clear up or differences and doctrine and I will understand your belief and doctrine even though i can`t change you or your belief, this is not my job but i will understand why you believe the way you do and some other people thinking as well including the Catholics and mormons.

God Bless

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Kevin
Clete,



Oh really? I asked you, after giving scriptual evidence, if Ephesus was a Gentile church, yes or no. You "failed to answer".....is the church of Ephesus Gentile or not? Yes or No?

NO
The church John wrote to was not a "Gentile" church. The one Paul wrote to was, the one John wrote was not.
And yes 1+1=2.
Two Apostles, two ministiries, two messages, TWO CHURCHES!

You have also failed to answer why the traditional tomb of John is found in Ephesus, a Gentile church, when you say that none of the 12 visited the Gentiles exept Peter in Acts 10.

I don't based my theology on tradition.
It wouldn't bother my theology if he were entombed in Tailand! (It doesn't matter)
Just because a congregation meets in Ephesus does mean its a "Gentile" church.
I never said that the 12 never "visited" anything.
There were circumcision belivers scattered all over, both because of the persecution in Jeruselem and because there were some 3000 saved on the day of Pentecost (a Jewish holiday) from nations all over the place who would certainly have gone home and established fellowships of there own, many of which would have been visited by the 12.

You have also failed to show that a future dispensation will come when works are necessary for salvation. This is in reference to Matt. 25:41-46 where they were sent to hell for their lack of works. You said that is a future dispensation beyond this supposed new dispensation. I have questioned you about this and have received NO reply.

No 'direct' reply, would be more accurate. But at the risk of both being redundant and wasting my time...
Ever hear of the rapture? Or don't you believe in that either? Dispensational theology teaches simply that the dispensation of the grace of God will close with the rapture. At that time God's prophesied plan with the nation of Israel will resume where it left off, and at that time your definition of the Gospel will be exactly correct. Well maybe not exactly.

Yes indeed, you have failed to answer points such as these. Prove me wrong.. show me where you answered these questions and that I supposedly just don't listen.

Since the only new ground I've covered to this point of this post was to introduce the rapture and that everything else has been either implied or pantently obvious in my other posts. Then I still contended that you would rather stay wrapped up in your very familiar territory, quoting and requoting the same verses of scripture over and over again, than to venture out on the risky ground of debating the foundation upon which all these theological details are standing on.

Nowthen, in response to being asked which commandments must we follow you said...

Matt. 28:19-20 (MKJV)
19) Therefore go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20) teaching them to observe all things, whatever I commanded you. And, behold, I am with you all the days until the end of the world. Amen.

I'm not about to go through the gospels and list out His commandments. If you want to know, read.

Let me first say that you gave a VERY satisfactory answer! I didn't want a complete list. (I think you might be catching on as to how to have a coversational debate!)
My next question to you then is this...
Do you deny that Jesus taught the law?
Is it your position that we should observe the law?
If not, why not. That is what Jesus (and the 12) taught.
Did Jesus preach that if you believe in His death and resurection that you would be saved? Or did He intentionally supress the fact the He would be crusified and rise from the dead, commanding the 12 NOT to speak of it to anyone?
Did Jesus teach people not to be circumcised? No, wait a minute, nevermind...that was Paul.

So that's "REAL" repentance? Just turning from unbelief? So says you, but there's more to it than that. True repentance is changing your mind and heart to follow Christ and give up your former ways of sin, thus walking in the Spirit. If you simply believe, and you say true repentance=turning from unblief, that excludes repenting from your sinful ways and habits. It is NOT complete repentance. It is very possible to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and yet one wouldn't necessarily give up his or her sinful lifestyle. To follow Christ means that you not only believe in Him, but become obedient to Him as well, thus giving up your sinful ways.

The whole point of Paul ministry was to teach that what you suggest here is NOT POSSIBLE for us to achieve. That WE have been CRUSIFIED with Christ. And are therfore dead unto sin. If we are to have any victory at all in this area we must 'recon' this to be true of ourselves BY FAITH. It is when we BELIEVE what God has said about our possition in Christ that HE works, by the power of His resurection, into our character the righteousness that you say must come first. As with all legalist, you have put the cart before the horse and turned the Gospel of the Grace of God on its head.
Secondly, we are called to believe that Jesus is God, not simply His Son. I mention this because the phrase you used seemed unatural somehow. And in my experience, people who use phrases like that are unconciously revieling potentially important distictions in their belief system. I could be wrong here but I wanted to clearify since we are discussing basics here. If you do not belive that Jesus is God then you are not saved whether you're "obediant" or not. The diety of Jesus has been a fundamental pillar of the Christian faith since its founding and remains as such. To deny it is to deny Christ.

...here's a great example of things we are to repent of - works of the flesh:

Galatians 5:19-21 (MKJV)
19) Now the works of the flesh are clearly revealed, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lustfulness,
20) idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, fightings, jealousies, angers, rivalries, divisions, heresies,
21) envyings, murders, drunkennesses, revelings, and things like these; of which I tell you before, as I also said before, that they who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

As for my definition of the Gospel, I'll copy and paste something I wrote to C.Moore:

I would preach Christ and Him crucified to them, just as the apostles did, and to those who believed, I would tell them that they need to repent of their sinful ways and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins... just like in Acts 2!!! And yes, I would tell them that they need to remain obedient to Christ to the point of death.

Is this what you're looking for?

Yes, my response here is the same as above.

So be it, if you don't want to respond that's on you. But that doesn't change the fact that you can't point to a single place in the Bible where your "new" dispensation began.

Acts 9 -- Please don't give me a different interpretation of Acts 9. I'm completely confident that you reject this idea and I know intuitively why. Theres no need to waste eachothers time.

Nor can you show me ONE example of conversion where somebody simply believed and confessed.

Then why did Paul SPECIFICALLY say...Romans 10:9-10 "9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."?
What does this verse mean if not exactly what is says?
As for an example, I'll give you the same one Paul gave...Abraham. Abraham believed God (that God would make him the father of many nations) and it was credited to him for righteousness. (He didn't even have to "confess"!) And note that there is no mention of Abraham having to first make an attempt to conceive the child before the righteousness was credited. He simply believed and it was credited.(period) This is why it made sense for Paul to use him as an example in the first place.

Did you or did you not say that salvtion is Romans 10:9-10, "nothing more, nothing less?" My mistake, that's two verses, not one. In essence, that's what you've done by insinuating that Romans 10:9-10 is all we need for salvation, which does indeed exclude repentance, full repentance, not just repenting from unbelief.

I did not insinuate anything. I openly proclaim it, as did Paul. And this in no way makes one verse the whole bible! Your entire point in saying such a thing is to insinuate a drastic oversimplification that is obiously untrue. Saying in essence that since that oversimplification is untrue then the entire system must be false.
I will not allow you to get away with such a tactic. If you want to attack dispensationalism them attack it for what it actually teaches, not some idiotic idea that you came up with not me.

Hardly. It leaves many things unanswered (see my questions to you), and does not make sense. Nor is there any place in the Bible which clearly shows this supposed "new dispensation", in contrast to the very clear dispensation seen in Matt. 28: 19-20. It's basically saying that God couldn't get it right the first time after offering His Son on the cross for salvation.

It is not saying anything of the sort. Quite the reverse. WE (people) couldn't get it right, but God had (and has) every contingency planned for and is ready to respond in every circumstance. Which is what He did when He cut off Israel and reconciled the whole world, beginning with Paul in Acts 9.

Well of course speaking is not a work of the flesh! The fact that you would say such a thing makes me wonder if you know what works of the flesh are! :think: These are works of the flesh:

Is is not perfectly obvious what is meant by what I said!?
STOP nitpicking and repsond to THE POINT.
"GOOD works" are things that you do on this planet, in this life, with your body, physically. And I can therefore use the phrase "works of the flesh" without any controversy. That is as long as you make some attempt to stay on the same page that I am on, paying attention to the points being made and not always the exact words being used. I understand that this is a diffuculty for you so I have attempted to be more precise with my words but please cut me slack here. I've tried to make my points as clear as possible so just respond to the points be made. If you missunderstand and respond accordingly, I promise to clear up the misunderstanding, but neither of us are expert theologians and I see no reason to act as if were having some formal debate in front of 250 seminary students. RELAX a little!

I know what works of the flesh are, and I would never imply that speaking is one of them! Speaking, while not a work of the flesh, IS a work. ANYTHING that is required of man is a work, even belief in Christ:

This is so rediculous that it hardly warrents a response. Belief is not a work or the word grace would have no meaning. (A figure a speech used by Christ, not withstanding). Remember that you yourself teach and I do not deny that Jesus taught that to believe was to obey). But that was BEFORE grace! Recall a verse I like to quote...."But to him who DOES NOT WORK, BUT BELIEVES..."?

So my point still stands... confession with the mouth IS a work that man does unto salvation! That right there kills the notion that faith "only" saves, because even you said that those two verses are what counts - nothing more, nothing less - and one of them includes a work.

Rediculous!


Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[BillyBob]

Don't forget the Redneck Auction!!!!

C'mon folks. If everyone gave just ten bucks, Tye would be digging his way out of a very deep hole.

I would love to see Minus 3000 posts!!!!!!!!!

-3000

[isn't it pretty!!!!]

Ten bucks each!!!!!!!

That's less than the cost of a cup of coffee every morning for a month.

The Redneck Club will match every ten dollar donation from here on until the end of the Auction.

If you wanna donate more, all the better!

Let's watch Tye's post count sink into oblivion!!!!!


Remove Tye's Posts Here

 

[Clete]

Re: re-pent........

Re: re-pent........

Originally posted by freelight
So......repentance is necessary for a change in ones mind....thereby affecting ones mentality, attitude, receptivity, heart, spiritual condition - Paul teaches something along the same lines - 'renewing the mind'. So....I would say a shift in consciousness is essential for the transformation or change of ones soul - affecting his direction and vision.

freelight,

Interesting post. :thumb:
It seems somewhat vague though. Are you saying that repentence (from sin) is necesary for for salvation? Or are you saying that repentence (from sin) comes as a result of our renewing our minds after we have been saved? Or both?
Not that both is really an option...either our attempt to live a righteous lifestyle is a prerequisite to salvation or our righteousness is a gift, given as a result of our having been saved. Either the chicken came first or the egg did.

Just curious!,
Clete

 

[Clete]

c.moore,

In your last post you said...
"Why do people make the Gospel so hard?

Most people don`t believe the gospel we preach from the bible because it is to easy and to free, and the yoke is easy and the burden is taken away , and people can`t accept this easy way christ made for us.

This is why you have so much trouble in debating with other people like freak over baptism because you are doing this baptism in a religious way which include trying to do God a favor , and do religious works , and ritual to show God something you are doing without knowing that we can do nothing without Him and we are nothing without Jesus , this is why God hate boasting and trying to show God like what i did, nd look what I OBEYED, OR look what commandments I did, this is showing off you might and power and not that power what God is doing through you and with you,..."

All I can say is...
BRILLIANT! You got it exactly right!
The grace given to us is free, but it wasn't cheap! It cost God EVERYTHING, even His lifes blood. To attempt to add to the price paid at Calvary by doing works is an insult to God.
God bless you!

Clete

 

[Francisco]

Clete,

Originally posted by Kevin
Oh really? I asked you, after giving scriptual evidence, if Ephesus was a Gentile church, yes or no. You "failed to answer".....is the church of Ephesus Gentile or not? Yes or No?

Originally posted by Clete
NO
The church John wrote to was not a "Gentile" church. The one Paul wrote to was, the one John wrote was not.
And yes 1+1=2.
Two Apostles, two ministiries, two messages, TWO CHURCHES!

Wow, that was convincing......NOT! Do you expect us to accept your theory merely because you say so? Where is your evidence that Ephesus was not a Gentile community and church? Clearly there is much scriptural evidence, as posted previously, that the Ephesians were most certainly Gentiles. Where is your evidence there is another Ephesus that is Jewish? Or evidence that John wrote only to these Jews you claim lived in the Gentile community of Ephesus?

Originally posted by Kevin
You have also failed to answer why the traditional tomb of John is found in Ephesus, a Gentile church, when you say that none of the 12 visited the Gentiles exept Peter in Acts 10.

Originally posted by Clete
I don't based my theology on tradition.
It wouldn't bother my theology if he were entombed in Tailand! (It doesn't matter)
Just because a congregation meets in Ephesus does mean its a "Gentile" church.
I never said that the 12 never "visited" anything.
There were circumcision belivers scattered all over, both because of the persecution in Jeruselem and because there were some 3000 saved on the day of Pentecost (a Jewish holiday) from nations all over the place who would certainly have gone home and established fellowships of there own, many of which would have been visited by the 12.

I see you are like many who attempt to divorce Christianity from all that happened before the 16th century, denying the importance of Tradition. Maybe that's because you don't understand that 'Tradition' is the teaching of the apostles and early leaders of the Church, the teachings of the faith before the individual inspired scriptures were collated into our bible. For nearly 400 years the Church relied almost exclusively upon Christian Tradition to propagate the faith, and it was against this Tradition that the Church judged the scriptures to determine what was inspired scripture when the canon of the bible was being determined. So by ignoring Tradition, you are ignoring the foundation upon which our bible is constructed.

Your comment about John being entombed in Tailand (sic) not bothering your theology is evidence of how baseless your theology is. You're willing to ignore facts that don't fit with your 'theology'. Otherwise you would have to admit that your 'theology' is a man made fairy tale with no basis in truth.

Originally posted by Kevin
You have also failed to show that a future dispensation will come when works are necessary for salvation. This is in reference to Matt. 25:41-46 where they were sent to hell for their lack of works. You said that is a future dispensation beyond this supposed new dispensation. I have questioned you about this and have received NO reply.

Originally posted by Clete
No 'direct' reply, would be more accurate. But at the risk of both being redundant and wasting my time...
Ever hear of the rapture? Or don't you believe in that either? Dispensational theology teaches simply that the dispensation of the grace of God will close with the rapture. At that time God's prophesied plan with the nation of Israel will resume where it left off, and at that time your definition of the Gospel will be exactly correct. Well maybe not exactly.

Again, do you expect us to accept your dispensational 'theology' just because you say so? Why was dispensational 'theology' completely unknown to any Christian before 1830? Did Jesus just forget to tell the apostles?

By the way, your dispensational idea of the second coming of Christ was also unknown to any Christian before the 1800's. It is a fictional product of the same man made fairy tale you insist on calling theology.

Originally posted by Kevin
So that's "REAL" repentance? Just turning from unbelief? So says you, but there's more to it than that. True repentance is changing your mind and heart to follow Christ and give up your former ways of sin, thus walking in the Spirit. If you simply believe, and you say true repentance=turning from unblief, that excludes repenting from your sinful ways and habits. It is NOT complete repentance. It is very possible to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and yet one wouldn't necessarily give up his or her sinful lifestyle. To follow Christ means that you not only believe in Him, but become obedient to Him as well, thus giving up your sinful ways.

Originally posted by Clete
The whole point of Paul ministry was to teach that what you suggest here is NOT POSSIBLE for us to achieve. That WE have been CRUSIFIED with Christ. And are therfore dead unto sin. If we are to have any victory at all in this area we must 'recon' this to be true of ourselves BY FAITH. It is when we BELIEVE what God has said about our possition in Christ that HE works, by the power of His resurection, into our character the righteousness that you say must come first. As with all legalist, you have put the cart before the horse and turned the Gospel of the Grace of God on its head.

Clete, you seem to ignore the details of what Paul told us, probably because they completely contradict your 19th century fairy tale 'theology', about HOW we are crucified with Christ:

Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. (Romans 6:3-7)

By trying to ignore the details of HOW Paul tells us we are crucified with Christ, and by trying to put the words 'faith alone' in Pauls mouth, you distort the scriptures, possibly to your own destruction. Why do you want to ignore the plain truth set down in scripture that we die with Christ through baptism??? Is it to protect your pride from the injury it would incur if you realized your fairy tale 'theology' is erroneous? It certainly CAN NOT be that you are seeking the plain truth of the God-breathed scriptures!

Originally posted by Kevin
Nor can you show me ONE example of conversion where somebody simply believed and confessed.

Originally posted by Clete
Then why did Paul SPECIFICALLY say...Romans 10:9-10 "9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."?
What does this verse mean if not exactly what is says?

As for an example, I'll give you the same one Paul gave...Abraham. Abraham believed God (that God would make him the father of many nations) and it was credited to him for righteousness. (He didn't even have to "confess"!) And note that there is no mention of Abraham having to first make an attempt to conceive the child before the righteousness was credited. He simply believed and it was credited.(period) This is why it made sense for Paul to use him as an example in the first place.

Are you saying Abraham was justified one time, and then was saved once and for all? Why then is Abraham justified again when God tests him by asking Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac? The problem you have in understanding justification is you see it as a one time legalistic act, when in fact is a continuing process by which we are made more and more into the likeness of Jesus Christ, through obedience to ALL his teachings, not just through belief in Jesus. We must repent of our sins, we must seek to love God and manifest this love through our works just as Abraham did when he obeyed God's command to sacrifice Isaac, and we must love our neighbor and manifest this love through perseverance in good works like Paul tells us at the beginning of Romans:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done." To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, HE WILL GIVE ETERNAL LIFE. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. (Romans 2:6-8)

By taking the scripture citation you posted out of the context of the entire letter to the Romans, you again try to force the words 'faith alone' into Paul's teaching. But again, the plain truth of the scriptures proves you wrong because Paul prefaced his words in Romans 10 with his words in Romans 2. Clearly Paul taught that it is through our good works or good deeds that we will be judged and awarded eternal life. Or, if we fail to manifest our love through those good works, we will be judged worthy only of wrath and anger. Your fairy tale 'theology' would require Paul to say something like this:

God "will give to each person according to what that person believes." To those who by persistence in only believing in Jesus Christ, HE WILL GIVE ETERNAL LIFE. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, HE WILL STILL GIVE ETERNAL LIFE AS LONG AS THEY BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST.

Basically, your faith alone idea would save the devil, since even the devil believes, in fact KNOWS, Jesus Christ! This is clearly taught in James chapter 2. James teaches us that even the devil 'believes', just as a Christian believes. The difference is the Christian ACTS on his faith in Jesus, thereby manifesting his love of and trust in God, just as Abraham manifested his love and trust in God through his obedience to God's command to kill his only son Isaac. If belief is all it takes, then you can expect to see the devil judged as righteous on the last day.

Originally posted by Kevin
Did you or did you not say that salvtion is Romans 10:9-10, "nothing more, nothing less?" My mistake, that's two verses, not one. In essence, that's what you've done by insinuating that Romans 10:9-10 is all we need for salvation, which does indeed exclude repentance, full repentance, not just repenting from unbelief.

Originally posted by Clete
I did not insinuate anything. I openly proclaim it, as did Paul. And this in no way makes one verse the whole bible! Your entire point in saying such a thing is to insinuate a drastic oversimplification that is obiously untrue. Saying in essence that since that oversimplification is untrue then the entire system must be false.
I will not allow you to get away with such a tactic. If you want to attack dispensationalism them attack it for what it actually teaches, not some idiotic idea that you came up with not me.

But Clete, that IS what dispensationalism teaches, an oversimplification that is obviously untrue! Any 'system' that teaches anything that is not true can only be false in and of itself. If your dispensational 'system' was true, then it could espouse nothing but truth. And since there is only one truth, and since this dispensational 'system' was unknown to the apostles and was not among the teachings Christ gave to the apostles, then to hold dispensationalism up as 'truth' we would have to accept that Jesus didn't teach the apostles the truth. How ridiculous!

Originally posted by Kevin
Hardly. It leaves many things unanswered (see my questions to you), and does not make sense. Nor is there any place in the Bible which clearly shows this supposed "new dispensation", in contrast to the very clear dispensation seen in Matt. 28: 19-20. It's basically saying that God couldn't get it right the first time after offering His Son on the cross for salvation.

Originally posted by Clete
It is not saying anything of the sort. Quite the reverse. WE (people) couldn't get it right, but God had (and has) every contingency planned for and is ready to respond in every circumstance. Which is what He did when He cut off Israel and reconciled the whole world, beginning with Paul in Acts 9.

Clete, you have a major problem here. You claim that not until Paul was the whole world reconciled. However, Jesus said when He is lifted up on the cross He will draw all men to Himself. That's ALL men, not just Jews. He didn't say that He would draw all Jews until Paul comes along so the Gentiles can be drawn as well.

Your idea is also in conflict with the fact that it was Peter through whom the Gentiles would hear the gospel and come to believe, not Paul. This is evidenced by Peter's words at the council of Jerusalem:

After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from MY lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." (Acts 15:7-11)

The Gentiles were receiving the message of the Gospel long before Paul was converted to Christianity. Only later did Peter and Paul agree that Paul should concentrate on preaching to the Gentiles and Peter to the Jews.

The reason I quoted so much of Peter's words to the council of Jerusalem is to illustrate that there is ONE message to all Christians, contrary to your ridiculous idea about two messages, one for Jews and another for Gentiles. Clearly Peter tells the council "He made NO DISTINCTION between us and them", referring to the fact that God had chosen to treat Jews and Gentiles alike. Yet in the face of this very plain scriptural truth, your fairy tale 'theology' would require us to believe this inspired scripture is a lie and that God did make distinctions between Jews and Gentiles insofar as the message to Christians. If both Jew and Gentile are to be saved 'through the grace of our Lord Jesus', then why would God send two different messages? That's as believable as Grimms Fairy Tales. I wonder if John Nelson Darby (inventor of dispensationalism) was somehow related to the Grimm family?

Originally posted by Kevin
I know what works of the flesh are, and I would never imply that speaking is one of them! Speaking, while not a work of the flesh, IS a work. ANYTHING that is required of man is a work, even belief in Christ:

Originally posted by Clete
This is so rediculous that it hardly warrents a response. Belief is not a work or the word grace would have no meaning. (A figure a speech used by Christ, not withstanding). Remember that you yourself teach and I do not deny that Jesus taught that to believe was to obey). But that was BEFORE grace! Recall a verse I like to quote...."But to him who DOES NOT WORK, BUT BELIEVES..."?

Now talk about ridiculous, this last statement IS truly ridiculous. As usual, Kevin is correct in stating that 'belief' is a work:

Jesus answered, "The WORK of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Yes, believing IS a WORK. Anything man does is a work. Any action is a work. 'Work' by definition is anything that is done.

However, I see that you misunderstand what Paul is saying in Romans 4, about those 'who do not work but believes'. You would avoid misunderstandings like this if you would stop taking verses out of context in order to there the meaning to that of your own liking. Take another look at the context of the verse you cited. Paul is teaching that it was not through the requirement of circumcision, which was a WORK OF THE MOSAIC LAW, that Abraham was justified. So what Paul was saying is "those who do not perform the works of the mosaic law, but believe .... are the righteous ones." If you believed Paul was saying that "those who don't do anything, but believe.... are righteous", then this God-breathed scripture would be in direct contradiction with this God-breathed scripture:

Was not Abraham our father JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (James 2:21)

Abraham WAS justified by his works as evidenced by this inspired scripture. In order to believe you interpretation of what Paul was saying in Romans 4, then we would have to believe the Holy Spirit lied to James when the verse above was written. Sorry Clete, that's unacceptable and absolutely erroneous.

Originally posted by Kevin
So my point still stands... confession with the mouth IS a work that man does unto salvation! That right there kills the notion that faith "only" saves, because even you said that those two verses are what counts - nothing more, nothing less - and one of them includes a work.

Originally posted by Clete
Rediculous!

What's ridiculous Clete is your inability to refute anything Kevin has said. All you can do is fall back on your 19th century fairy tale 'theology' and say, "Rediculous", which is utterly ridiculous!
Clete, it is by the grace of God that we are made to be capable of believing and thus capable of being saved. But we still have to DO something, we have to believe. We have the option to follow the prompting of God's grace to belief, and then to follow what He taught and commanded. But we also have the option to refuse the prompting of God's grace and turn away from the Lord. Either way we have to DO something. And anything we do, including believe, is a WORK, just as the scriptures say.

Clete, throw away your 19th century fairy tale 'theology' and accept the teachings Jesus Christ gave the apostles to be handed down through the centuries. I promise you the teachings Jesus gave the apostles are completely efficacious and that a 19th century self-proclaimed visionary is by no stretch of the imagination even remotely comparable to the apostles.

God Bless,

Francisco