The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[Kevin]

c.moore,

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Originally posted by Kevin
c.moore,



You are so hung up on this "symbolic" thing that it is hindering you from seeing the purpose of baptism. I'll try to explain this, again.

Baptism is symbolic of Christ's death, burial, and ressurection. Why is it symbolic? Because it has to be! The only one who can literllay go through Christ's death, burial, and ressurection is Christ Himself! We are obviously not Christ.

Now, while baptism is symbolic of Christ's death, burial, and ressurection, what baptism does for the believer is allow us to die with Christ, be buried with Christ, and be resurrected a new creature, walking in the newness of life just like (likeness) Christ! This is what baptism does for the believer.

IF we don't get baptized we have NOT crucified the old man of sin, which is why we die with Christ through baptism. (Rom. 6:4) Why else do you think we die with Christ trough baptism... it's so that the man of sin is crucifed, so that the body of sin might be destroyed (verse 6)! The man of sin is destroyed, which makes us free from sin (verse 7). We are *ONLY* free from sin if we have crucified the man of sin! That's why 2 Tim. 2:11 says that IF die with Christ, we will also LIVE with Christ. IF. IF. IF.

Romans 6:4 makes it quite clear that we die with Christ through BAPTISM:

Romans (MKJV)
4) Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life.

We HAVE to die with Christ IF we want to live with Christ! That is certainly essential to salvation, and this achieved through BAPTISM, as clearly shown above. Again, IT IS THOSE WHO HAVE DIED WITH CHRIST WHO ARE FREED FROM SIN (Rom. 6:7). Conditional! Essential!



To resemble, or to be like. Just like Christ died, was buried, and was ressurected, we too will share in those things, IF IF IF (conditional!) we are untied in the likeness of His death through baptism (Rom. 6:5).


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There were only two baptisms ever ordained of God: 1) John the Baptist's (in water) and Jesus's(in the Spirit). One was a shadow "type". The other was the reality in Christ. One has "faded away". The other is here. Or as Paul said, there is now "ONE baptism" (Eph.4:5). So we are faced with the stark reality of choosing, as Paul did, which baptism truly washed away sin. And once that choice is made, we must (as we do the other ceremonial shadow types of the law) let the "shadow" go. Which is the real ONE baptism now? Water or Spirit? If we choose water, then we choose to cling to what Paul called "dead works" --- works that were once ordained by God, but which he has now done away with. If we choose Spirit baptism - then it becomes obvious that water baptism is a useless ceremony, just as all the other ceremonial works of the law have become. All these ceremonies were holy and right in their time. But they were "dead works" when God brought about a change through Christ Jesus.
Not an water baptism of John the baptist.

I was hoping that you would answer instead of looking for somebody else to answer for you.

For one thing, you didn't even try to touch, even with another author, about the importance of my conditional arguement.

Secondly, this borrowed article only tries to say that Paul is speaking of Spirit baptism being the ONE baptism.

Well, if that's the case, then somebody should have told Paul not to baptized people in the name of the Lord, which is what he practiced. Paul baptized people in 1 Cor. chapter one, serveral places in Acts, such as Acts 19:5. Man cannot baptize with the Holy Spirit (man does not command Him), man can only baptize with water. Paul had people baptized in the name of the Lord, which is done with water, as proven in Acts 10: 47-48.

And then there's Romans 6 that Paul wrote. C.Moore, you have to contend that Romans 6 is speaking of water baptism sine you use it for your "likeness" arguement against water baptism. Don't you think Paul is writing about the ONE baptism in Romans 6? I do. It would only make sense for Paul, who wrote that there is ONE baptism, to write about that baptsm in Romans 6.

 

[Kevin]

Freelight,

I see you aren't done with this thread after all.

As for your arguments referring to Paul and whether or not it's water baptism, see above what I said to c.moore.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Kevin
Freak, Our obedience is also required. I we don't obey His commandments, we DONT know Him, and the truth is not in us (1 John 2:3-4).

WE obey Christ in HIM...we can do nothing apart from HIM (John 15:5).

So...

For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Whose obedience are we trusting in for righteousness--ours or His?

 

[JustAChristian]

There Is No Salvation Without The Washing Away Of Sins

There Is No Salvation Without The Washing Away Of Sins

There are but two passages of Scripture that we can recall, that tells us how one gets into Christ. In Rom. 6:3 Paul wrote, "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?" Again he wrote, "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (Gal. 3:27). How does one get into Christ? Paul's answer -- one is "baptized into Christ." There is no other way into Christ! We get into Christ in precisely the same way that we get into the one body (1 Cor. 12:13), therefore, being in Christ is the same thing as being in his body, the church.

Symbolism needs to be understood in order to give proper biblical interpretation. Water is symbolized as a grave in Romans 6. We are buried in the grave of water. A grave consist of a hole, dirt and covering up. When we understand this we can understand the implications of the burial. Not only did Paul say that we are baptized into Jesus Christ (Rom. 6:3), but he goes on to say that we are "baptized into his death." It was in Christ's death that he shed his blood, and his blood is that which remits sin. However, we must come into contact with his blood before our sins can be remitted. Where do we contact the blood of Christ? Paul tells us that it is in baptism. If he shed his blood in his death (and he did), and we are baptized into his death (and we are), then it is in baptism that we come into contact with the blood of Christ, which is able to remit sin. If not, why not?

In the latter part of Gal. 3:27, Paul states that in baptism we "put on Christ." Again we come to symbolism. This can not be accomplished in Holy Spirit, for the Spirit would be put on us. We would not be putting on Christ. Let me use a very simple illustration which all should be able to understand. Until a person puts on his coat, he is out of the coat. Once he has put the coat on, he is in the coat. Just so it is in our relation to Christ. We are out of Christ until we put Christ on, and Paul plainly states that we put Christ on in baptism. Therefore, until one is baptized "into Christ" he is out of Christ, because he has not put Christ on! I can hardly see how anyone can possibly misunderstand such plain, simple language, and yet there are thousands who seemingly cannot understand this, because they shout long and loud that baptism is not essential to salvation.

The apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit and those who believed Peter's preaching were baptized in water in the name of Christ on the same day. Cornelius was baptized with the Holy Spirit and the same day, likely within the same hour, was baptized in water in the name of Christ.
Jesus told Nicodemus that without being "born of water and of the Spirit" one can not enter this spiritual family, the church (John 3:1-8). "Born of water and of the Spirit" refers to the one new birth, accomplished when one is baptized in water according to (or, as directed by) the Holy Spirit (John 3:3-5). Holy Spirit baptism was never meant for all people. Many examples are shown in Acts of people who were not Holy Spirit baptized but rejoiced in their relationship to Christ.

Holy Spirit baptism was never given as a command. How could it be? It was administered by deity, not men. And it was administered at a time and under circumstances chosen by deity, not by men. Water baptism, on the other hand, was given by command (Acts 2:38; Acts 10:47,48; Acts 22:16). This is a baptism administered by men, and when performed scripturally is approved of God. And it is a baptism men submit to of their own free will. At a time of their choosing, in obedience to the Lord's command.

The one baptism of Eph. 4 is Christian era baptism. It is the baptism that is commanded. And it was designed to remain in effect until the end of the earth (Matthew 28:18-20). It is not the baptism of John. It is not the baptism of fire. And it is not the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Christian era baptism consists of immersion in water (Acts 8:38). Its prerequisites are faith, repentance, and confession (Mark 16:15,16; Acts 2:38; Acts 8:37). It, therefore, is not for infants. It is administered in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19,20). And, it is for the remission of sins and for union with Christ (Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; Galatians 3 :26-27; Romans 6:3-5).

Summarizing, let me say that baptism is the door to forgiveness of sins. Why?, because it is at this point of obedience that one comes in contact with the death of Christ. It is only in the death of Christ that we may find salvation. And it is only in baptism that we may contact the death of Christ (Rom. 6:1-6). Paul affirms that we are baptized into his death, that is the death of Christ, and that is very important. Some contend that baptism only symbolizes a dying to sin on our part, in turning from our sins; that the only death connected with baptism is the spiritual dying to sin that occurs within us. But this simply is not true. It is true that a dying to sin occurs within us in conversion. But it is not true that this dying to sin is all that baptism represents. Paul's teaching is that we are baptized into the death of Jesus. So remember, now, we are baptized into the one body (1 Cor. 12:13); Christ is the savior of the body (Eph. 5:23); we are baptized into Christ (Rom. 6:3; Gal. 3:27); into his death (Rom. 6:3) where his blood was shed; and in baptism we put on Christ (Gal. 3:27). In view of such plain passages, how can anyone honestly feel that water baptism is unimportant and has no validity? How can they say that we can be cleansed and saved any other way?

JustAChristian

 

[freelight]

baptisms.............

baptisms.............

Greetings all,

I bring up again the implication that when the word 'baptism' is used in the scriptures it does not always refer to 'water' baptism....although in some cases it is evident that such is implied and included in the general understanding of the universal sense of how the word is used in the total context of its meaning. The term however is not specific to 'water' baptism unless implied expressly in the context.

For instance Jesus himself said, " I have a baptism to be baptized with...and how distressed I am until it is accomplished! - Luke 12:50

This 'baptism', (as a state) may indeed refer to whole dispensation/bestowal of the Life of the Son of Man in the earth realm - denoting the whole experience of His incarnation and immersion into Man, the world, the human soul...and finally union with God via death, burial, resurrection and ascension. Notice here Jesus is probably not talking about water baptism exclusively/expressly - but his 'immersion' experience of mortality and divinity..... and the death, burial ahead of him.

Rom. 6:4 while speaking of 'baptism' does not specify or imply the mere commencement of a ritual......but an actual immersion/submergence 'into' Christ.

Eph. 4:5; Col. 2 :12 - this baptism again is referring to the baptism into Christ - referring to a sate. This is the one universal baptism or immersion in God via and in Christ.

1 Cor. 10:2; 12:13- Paul speaks figuratively that "our fathers were under the cloud, all passed thru the sea, and were 'baptized' into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same ''spiritual' food, and all drank the same spiritual drink.'
Paul carries on this metaphor of baptism later in his letter - "For by one Spirit were all baptized into one body - and have all been made to 'drink' into one Spirit." This baptism is an immersion/submerging into the essence of whatever a person or group has 'entered' into - in this case they were 'baptized into Moses' in the earlier dispensation - yet still made to drink from the Spirit of Christ - which was true spiritual food and drink. Now thru the Holy Spirit....we are baptized into Christ...now having the substance of what was only earlier a shadow-representation.

1 Cor. 12:13 correlates with Gal. 3:27 showing that all are made one in Christ thru the baptism of the Spirit - those immersed into Christ 'put him on'.

Romans 13:14 - Paul refers here to 'putting on the Lord Jesus Christ' with no reference to baptism....but as a 'light garment' to protect one against the flesh and its lusts.

To the Ephesians (4: 17 -32)......Paul speaks of the truth of what it means to be 'in Jesus' by 'putting on the new man' and being renewed in the spirit of ones mind - no reference to baptism here in this 'process'.

To the Colossians (3: 1- 16) Paul again speaks of 'putting on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him.....where Christ is all in all. While Paul speaks of baptism earlier in 2:12 as 'being buried together with him in baptism ( using metaphoric allegorical illustrations of our identification with Christ thru death, burial, ressurection and ascension)....in this case as well as another listed above.....Paul speaks of our own free will efforts to do our part to 'put on the new man' - this process while being typified in the act of water baptism as being analogous to our burial with-in Christ.....is also one we actively engage in thru the sanctification of the Spirit, the renewing of our minds, and the putting to death the old man/nature by our cooperation with divine Spirit - therefore a mere act of water baptism does not necessarily enforce or grant one a true spiritual experinece of death, burial, resurrection in Christ....unless one has true faith and understanding and actively cooperatively participates in the Spirits work of sanctification and the sharing of the Spirit of Christ. While our identification in the process of Christs life and death is typified and symbolically acted out in the act of water baptism.......we see that the mere act of being water baptized does necessarily impart the full process and experience of ones transformation in Christ....as now that one has put on Christ....he has a journey and entire life ahead of him ...where he must conform to the ways of God(putting on the new man)...while denying the ways of the flesh/world (putting off the old man/carnality) - this being thru his active participation as inpsired and led by the Spirit.

So....we see that the general term and use of the word 'baptism' may include water baptism but is not always specific to it....however inclusive. The primary baptism of which the forerunner of Jesus spoke of that Jesus would baptize us with...was the baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire. Therefore we see that with Christ comes spiritual baptism...and by One Spirit we are immersed into Christ - Christ to us is true food and true drink - He is our spiritual life and sustenance.

Just because Paul actually baptized some people (he did not baptize all that he converted or knew - 1 Cor. 1:10-17) does not mean that his use of theword/term baptism always implied the physical act of immersion in water. I see his use of the term to include water baptism...and much more. Paul was not sent to baptize but to preach the gospel. The preaching of the gospel was paramount to him as his calling.......and the essential thing was that MEN AND WOMEN BE SPIRITUALLY BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST thru the SPIRIT OF GOD. We see that this is the essential - our spiritual union with-in Christ.

Christ immerses us in the Holy Spirit and fire. The Holy Spirit immerses us into Christ. The act of water baptism is a rite showing our identification in the process of Christs death, burial and resurrection - showing how we are buried with Him and risen with Him - the waters also represent our being 'washed, cleansed, sprinkled, immersed in the Spirit'. The Spirit puts to death the flesh, and awakens the new man who is the image and likeness of God - the image of the Christos. Christ in us...the hope of glory. We being immersed in Christ come forth as new creations. This is the essential work of transformation - baptism, as the principle of immersion (in its universal sense) and water baptism (in its symbolic sense).....both reveal and show aspects of this process/cycle of death and Life (renewal). We also see this cycle in the processes of Nature (the seasons). I might add that some aspects of christianity have gotten so far from the redognizing the glory of God in Nature/Creation/the Earth and her cycles....that they deprive themselves of a more full and appreciative (even participative) experience of their salvation.

Summer = Life in the continuum and peak of Light/the Sun
Autumn = the relaxing and withering down of Life, entering into the state of sleep, slumber, rest, death, decay....
Winter = the stage of coldness, rest, death, slumber, stasis, dormancy......
Spring = the resurrection/regeneration of Life......


These stages are ever-transpiring with-in the tides and seasons of creation/existence.......all sustained and carried by the pattern and intelligence of the Logos. We see that the very creative agency in/thru which the heavens and the earth were born is the same eternal Light/Logos/Word in which is our salvation and regeneration - in Him all these phases and stages of being/consciousness/mind/spirit are ever at work....and such as we abide in Him....we manifest His glory.

He is the Light of the heavens and the earth - the Lord, the Christ of creation - we as partakers of the divine nature experience and share His Life......we in turn become His very body....and He ours. Such deeper and divine mysteries are for those who aspire such insights and depths/joys of communion with the Lord of Life. What a mighty and glorious Christ is He.

"And whatever you do, do heartily, as to the Lord and not to men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for you serve the LORD CHRIST." - Col. 3:23

Let us glory in the Lord Christ.


paul

 

[c.moore]

I think this might help alot of people on this thread to understand kevin belief and church.

I have read this link by another author xplain a Church Called the Chuch of Christ which I also know this church exist in my home town Boston , but kevin one time claimed this was another church as his, but when you read this link you will see the same exact arguments, and scriptures used to twist the gospel and christians around the world be taught .

It is almost like Kevin and Francisco has pasted from this link in alot of ways.

Check it out for yourself those who believe baptism is not a part of salvation, and it is a ritual that doesn`t give us eternal life.

here is the link

http://www.acns.com/~mm9n/Baptism/D6.htm

God Bless

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

I have read this link by another author xplain a Church Called the Chuch of Christ which I also know this church exist in my home town Boston , but kevin one time claimed this was another church as his, but when you read this link you will see the same exact arguments, and scriptures used to twist the gospel and christians around the world be taught .

No, c.moore, the church of Christ is where I attend chruch. What I do NOT attend is the International chruch of Christ, also known as the Boston Movement. They are a cult that is into "discipling people", telling them who they can be friends with, where to live/work, etc. That is certainly not where I attend.

It is almost like Kevin and Francisco has pasted from this link in alot of ways.

Unlike you, my arguments are almost 100% mine. Sometimes I will post another author's work to back up my argument, but it's rare, and I certainly don't copy and past someone elses work as an answer to somebody's post like you do.

You one the other hand have trouble answering certain things, so you try and put up a smoke screen by copying and pasting an entire article of somebody else's work instead of dealing with my arguments yourself. Often, your borrowed arguements don't even touch some of my critical arguments. :down:

 

[c.moore]

Kevin you said:
No, c.moore, the church of Christ is where I attend chruch. What I do NOT attend is the International chruch of Christ, also known as the Boston Movement. They are a cult that is into "discipling people", telling them who they can be friends with, where to live/work, etc. That is certainly not where I attend.


Quote c.moore

But the belief is basically the same specially in the belief of water baptism is a part of salvation is this correct???

your religious club is alot like this link I posted is this correct also????

God Bless

 

[Kevin]

Freak,

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Originally posted by Kevin
Freak, Our obedience is also required. I we don't obey His commandments, we DONT know Him, and the truth is not in us (1 John 2:3-4).
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WE obey Christ in HIM...we can do nothing apart from HIM (John 15:5).

Ah... yes... let's look into that verse in context, shall we?

John 15:4-10 (MKJV)
4) Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5) I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6) If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7) If you abide in Me, and My Words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you.
8) In this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, so you shall be My disciples.
9) As the Father has loved Me, so I have loved you; continue in My love.
10) If you keep My commandments, you shall abide in My love, even as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

In context, this passage is speaking about us abiding in Christ, and that He is the Vine, and without Him, we can't do anything - because without Him, it would be impossible to abide in Him, and thus no salvation.

Now, this is the part that you don't want people to know - HOW one abides in the love of Christ. Christ plain says that *IF* WE keep His commandments, we will abide in His love (verse 10). IF!

So, without Christ, there is no salvation, and we can do nothing. So, in order to be saved, we have to abide in His love, and we abide in His love IF we keep His commandments.

So, we trust in the obedience of Christ, but we also MUST keep His commandments to abide in His love. If we do NOT keep His commandments, the truth is NOT in us (1 John 2:3), and there nothing you can say to change it's meaning.

One thing I will change from my previous answer is that I don't "trust" in my obedience, however, I know that without my obedience to Christ, I will not abide in His love, nor will I have the truth. Our obedience is essential!

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

But the belief is basically the same specially in the belief of water baptism is a part of salvation is this correct???

I think you should know by now that I believe that being water baptized in the name of Christ is essential to our salvation.

your religious club is alot like this link I posted is this correct also????

I briefly scanned it, and didn't thoughouly read it. It speaks of the church of Christ, so I would assume that it's speaking of the same church. But without reading the entire thing, I won't say it is for sure our church.

The thing is, c.moore, as you have posted a link to a website that is against water baptism's essentialness, I can post links that go the other way, and refute the faith only doctrine as being false, and that water baptism is essential to salvation.

For debating purposes, they don't serve much good, because it could literally turn into a copy and paste war, and who want's to read that? I wouldn't.

 

[c.moore]

Kevin

What I like about that link or web site is that all the questions and excuses, and twist interpretations of your belief is talked about including how you twist acts2, and Rom 6, and John 3 and many biblical scriptures to fit your belief.

If I had came acoss this earlier it would have saved me alot of time and gave me a understanding of why you believe the way you do.

I think it makes no sense to even debate any more because If I want to know an answer to an question I have it on that link already what you will say or believe.

I would say please other believers that don`t beieve in this doctrine of water baptism salvation please read through the link I posted, and you can see why kevin and his club came up with this new doctrine.

It will give you understanding more about the water baptism and how the devil has used it for his own purpose and tool.

again the link is
http://www.acns.com/~mm9n/Baptism/D6.htm

this thread from Freak is really to long and is alway going around the same dead mountain.

God Bless you

 

[c.moore]

Hello

This thread had 275 pages and if you go to the link and compare what these people say about how we are wrong about not making water a part of salvation and a repentance of sins,he will see that all the post they have posted has the exact same scriptures they debate with and twist, and the same theology as the link.
Even when you ask them questions you will see you are using the same answers as the link to debate with.
So it is really a broken record stuck in the same groove, and only God can hit the needle to let the song play and the water baptized people can enjoy the song God gives.


http://www.acns.com/~mm9n/Baptism/D6.htm


God Bless

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

Is this borrowed argument the best you can do? Still relying on others to try and answer what you can't?

What I like about that link or web site is that all the questions and excuses, and twist interpretations of your belief is talked about including how you twist acts2, and Rom 6, and John 3 and many biblical scriptures to fit your belief.

Questions and excuses? What "excuses" are you talking about? Twisted interpretations of scripture? Well, as you've done in the past, your borrowed argument differ's from your view on scripture, and he's supposed to be backing you? HA! For example, at least the author of your borrowed argument realizes that Acts 2:38 speaks of water baptism, a verse you have flipped and flopped over:

"Second, although Peter linked repentance and water baptism to the forgiveness of sins it does not clearly make baptism a condition for salvation."

As usual, you should read your borrowed arguments a little closer, because the often have points that differ from your view. This could easily be solved if you answered arguments and questions yourself, instead of hoping that somebody else's work will bail you out.

Your author's argument says that "baptism to the forgiveness of sins it does not clearly make baptism a condition for salvation." The author makes no attempt to discredit that Acts 2:38 and Rom. 6 both show that baptism is indeed for the forgiveness of sins. Why is that?

Your author fails again by saying:

"This all demonstrates that language is flexible. The fact that bapt i zw had a variety of meanings is an essential starting point in our discussion. It implies that the meaning of bapt i zw must be determined by the context. Yet this is where the Church of Christ often errs--assuming that every reference to bapt i zw must have been a reference to water baptism.3 For sake of clarity, when I use the word baptism I will be referring to water baptism by immersion, unless otherwise noted.4"

What a crock. This guy should dig a little deeper before making the assertion that "the Church of Christ often err--assuming that every reference to bapt i zw must have been a reference to water baptism". I can assure you that the church of Christ fully recognizes that people have been baptized with the Holy Spirit. We don't say that everytime baptism is mentioned that it referrs to water! I myself have recognized the two type of baptism by comparing Acts 10:44-48!!

Also, your borrowed argument mentions nothing about dispensationalism, yet you give the big "AMEN" and "good teachings" to those who profess this alien doctrine. If the dispy's give good accurate teachings as you have complimented, why doesn't your borrowed argument even mention it?

This just confirms my observation about you: As long as somebody posts that faith only saves, regardless of what they teach, it's a "good teaching"

I could go on refuting what this guy says, but the post would be HUGE, and I'm not going to chase you as you continue to spew out borrowed argument after borrowed argument.

The fact of the matter is, that by saying that faith "only" saves is saying that as long as you believe in your mind that Chist is the Son of God, you will be saved - regarless of wheter or not you repent of your sinful lifestyle. That's what faith is - the belief of something to be true based upon evidence given.

If faith only saves, then one doesn't need to repent (something man must do - a WORK). They just need to believe. I already went over this with you, and got NO reply, except borrowed arguements.

Faith only says that we can live a life of total disobedience (sin) and still be saved as long as we believe that Christ is the Son of God, which is ludicrous. I have faith that if I work hard and go to college that I can make a lot of money. Now, if I JUST sit there, believing that, and don't ACT upon my belief by working hard and going to college, what will my belief profit me? Nothing!!! But that's the doctrine that a lot of people base their logic on.... easy believeism... what a crock. :down:

------------------------------

The fact of the matter is, man does have a part that he must do in order to be saved. He must believe. He must confess. He must repent (which you acknowledge), and yes, he must be baptized for the remission of sins!

This thread is over 4,000 replies long because:

• People reply to arguments, but don't answer them
• People are forced to make up things when forced with the reality of scripture (2 Ehpesians churches, each with their own doctrine)
• People litterally will not reply to arguments at all (Freak)
• Instead of dealing with the arguments and giving straight forward answers (although sometimes you do), people rely on other's work to try and bail them out, and often, the work doesn't even answer the question (you).

And now, I'll close with something similar you mentioned. Here is a link that backs up the arguments that **I** have presented, and shows the fallacy of the faith only doctrine, showing how people pervert and twist scripture to teach a doctrine that says that baptism has nothing to do with our salvation. Yeah, we have to believe, but we don't actually have to DO what is commanded of us for salvation (give me a break!). Here's the link, which shows what baptsm's purpose is, according to scripture, and also has refutations to the common faith only objections:

http://www.bebaptized.org/

 

[drbrumley]

CMoore,

Originally posted by C.Moore
this thread from Freak is really to long and is alway going around the same dead mountain.

So, true. But what do you expect when people say that the church started with Acts 2?

In Christ,
DRBrumley

 

[PastorZ77]

i suppose these people are going to hell through no fault of their own?

http://goodmedicine.ninemsn.com.au/goodmedicine/factsheets/db/general/diseases/1157.asp

 

[Kevin]

PastorZ77,

If you've been following this thread, your comments falls under the classic "what if" scenarios, which I've commented on several times. They serve no point and do not change one word of the Bible, or what God expects of us.

What if somebody died of heart attack while hearing the gospel, but died before they got a chance to believe?

God will judge on the heart and their inentions. Pointing to rare case what if scenario's and trying to use them as an argumement against the necessity of baptism, which the VAST majority can do, is at best, weak.

Prove your case with scripture, not with rare case what if scenarios.

 

[PastorZ77]

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Prove your case with scripture, not with rare case what if scenarios.
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this isnt a what if scenario, its a real scenario.
we obviously disagree concerning interpretation of scripture, so here is a real life condition that flys in the face of your whole argument.


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God will judge on the heart and their inentions
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so will God judge on heart and intent, or dunked in a pool, make up your mind

 

[c.moore]

Hello Kevin

Is this borrowed argument the best you can do? Still relying on others to try and answer what you can't?

I can and do answer on my own but I like sometime how the other people put in better wording what I believe and have the same views as me, so I use their wordings pointing to my view on the debate.

Specially they had a good way of explaining how water baptism is only a symbol an a example of how we are baptized inthe Kingdom of God , and the spiritual baptism is that which make us children of God.

Your author's argument says that "baptism to the forgiveness of sins it does not clearly make baptism a condition for salvation." The author makes no attempt to discredit that Acts 2:38 and Rom. 6 both show that baptism is indeed for the forgiveness of sins. Why is that?

You read passed the Author and missed his point and you missed again that he has used the debate which you stand on and scriptures, and then show latter how wrong you water divers are.

Let me just copy and paste from a little part again from that author, and you tell me what you missed or ignored.


Paul also connected the necessity of water baptism with salvation in Romans 6. In verses 3 and 4 he wrote, "Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead...so we too might walk in newness of life." Paul's readers would have understood this to be a reference to water baptism. They would think about the day they were baptized (and came to know Christ) and were given new life from their baptism in water. They wouldn't think that being immersed in water alone brought salvation but that being baptized accompanied by faith brought them into new life in Christ.



In summary a representative of the Church of Christ would argue that the New Testament writers and Jesus taught that water baptism was a necessary condition for one to be saved. What follows is my response to this position. Before I will respond to these four arguments I will present three preliminary arguments that form an essential context for evaluating water baptism and salvation.


Now after showing Act 2 and Rom 6 and other scriptures you try to use for your church of Christ belief the author latter respond to your arguments opposite of what you beleive and no way agree with what you think.



Î thnk this really flashed in your watery eyes by the author.


IV. The historical data we have, particularly in the book of Acts, does suggest that individuals who professed faith in Christ were immediately baptized. Here I believe the Church of Christ has made an accurate observation. The N.T. pattern is different from the pattern practiced, for example, in most Baptist churches where an individual is baptized some time later after they express faith in Christ.7 Our modern approach to baptism often forms context from which we evaluate these passages. This may lead to confusion when we read through passages in the New Testament like Mark 16:15; I Pet. 3:21; Rom 6:3-5 and others. But, an important distinction needs to be made.

But He also said this:

The historical fact that many people in the book of Acts, who placed their faith in Christ, were immediately baptized does not make water baptism a necessary condition for salvation. A Church of Christ representative would probably agree with this statement but respond that the Apostles did include baptism in their gospel message. This argument will be considered next.


You said Kevin:

If faith only saves, then one doesn't need to repent (something man must do - a WORK). They just need to believe. I already went over this with you, and got NO reply, except borrowed arguements.

VII. The overwhelming testimony of Scripture is that faith alone is both a necessary and sufficient condition for salvation. By necessary and sufficient I mean that not only is faith necessary for salvation (both sides agree about this), but that faith is also sufficient.14 A study of the word group believe, belief, faith, and save will demonstrate this. The Greek verb pisteuw (that is translated "believe") occurs 248 times in the N.T. and can mean believe, trust, or entrust. pisteuw occurs 100 times alone in the gospel of John. This is not surprising. John wrote, "But these things have been written that you may believe (pisteuw) that Jesus is the Christ...and that by believing you may have life in His name." (Jn. 20:31) In John 1:12 John wrote that all "who believe in His name" are children of God. John 3:16 recorded, "whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." Also consider John 3:18 and 7:38, 39.

The fact of the matter is, man does have a part that he must do in order to be saved. He must believe. He must confess. He must repent (which you acknowledge), and yes, he must be baptized for the remission of sins!

To determine whether water baptism is a necessary condition for salvation one must study salvation not baptism. The importance of this can be illustrated as follows. Imagine that one was studying Luke 18:18-23. A rich young ruler said to Jesus, "'Good teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?' And Jesus said to him, 'You know the commandments...'" Jesus then listed five of the ten commandments and told the ruler to sell all his possessions. This appears to teach salvation by works. Imagine that someone concludes then that he or she must study all the passages in the Bible on good works. Consider James 2:14-26. James said (v. 14), "What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" In verse 24 James continued, "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. " After studying these and related passages on good works one might conclude that salvation results from faith plus good works.

However, we know from the rest of Scripture (Rom. 1-3; Eph 2:8,9; John 3:16-20) that we are not saved by works.6 The Church of Christ often uses this same approach with baptism. The question, "How am I saved?" is answered by studying passages on baptism. Therefore, to properly answer the question, "Is water baptism a necessary condition for salvation?" we must first consider another question: What must one do in order to be saved? In contrast with a handful of scriptures (Acts 2:38; Mark 16:15-16; I Pet. 3:21) that relate baptism (in some sense) to salvation are hundreds of verses on salvation that say nothing about baptism. With this background I will respond to the arguments put forth by the Church of Christ.



When somebody repent they will not freely continue to practise sinning like in their old sinful life and they will start to change IF they are really saved with all their heart not with all their works, and obedience.
Their repentful heart will change them to do the obedient love walk after they are saved and have salvation already Kevin.

Kevin think about how religious you are are trying to do God a favor and please God by yopur works and religious qualifications.think:


God Bless


:

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by PastorZ77
***********
Prove your case with scripture, not with rare case what if scenarios.
***********
this isnt a what if scenario, its a real scenario.
we obviously disagree concerning interpretation of scripture, so here is a real life condition that flys in the face of your whole argument.


***********
God will judge on the heart and their inentions
***********
so will God judge on heart and intent, or dunked in a pool, make up your mind

AMEN Pastor!:thumb:

 

[Kevin]

Pastor,

I realize that this is a "real life" thing, but as I said, it changes nothing in the word of God and what God expects of us. Nohting.

You are trying to use a rare case scenario to try and justify that baptism isn't necessary for salvation. I wouldn't want to be standing before God, when he asked me why I wasn't baptized as commanded of us, and answer "Well, you see, God, theres this RARE case of people being allergic to water, so, I know you commanded it, but because of these rare case people, I decided what you commanded isn't necessary after all."

I wouldn't want to be in his shoes.

As far as my mind being made up, it has been for sometime. I'm going to continue to preach the gospel by the examples given in the Bible, and I'll let God do the judging. He didn't write this plan of salvation out for us only for us to find rare case scenarios and use it to justify cancelling out what He included in the plan. That's foolishness.