The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[rene]

"The gospel in Acts 2:38 shows that people were to be water baptized first and then they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. But that's not what happened when Peter preached to the Gentiles in Acts 10:44 - "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all those hearing the Word." The Gentiles received the Holy Spirit apart from water baptism. God was obviously changing things."

My reply: The change was that Gentiles were also being entered into the family of God. Had nothing to do with doing away with baptism at all as can be seen if you read down in Acts:

Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Notice that Peter COMMANDED. Why command if it is something not important? The answer is simple - because He was following the instructions that Jesus left to est. the church.

 

[rene]

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

NOTICE - JESUS said that except a man be born of water AND the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Baptism not important? Not what Jesus taught.

 

[freelight]

born from above.....

born from above.....

Hello rene,

You posted/wrote the following:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

NOTICE - JESUS said that except a man be born of water AND the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Baptism not important? Not what Jesus taught.



)============== There is nothing in this discourse/dialogue that suggests 'baptism'. The subject here is 'generation/birth'.
If you take the whole dialogue in context.....we see that the 'born of water' refers to natural birth(fleshly birth)....while 'of the Spirit' is spiritual generation. See the next verse (6) -

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh(water), and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (Spirit)."

There is a natural birth and a supernatural birth - Man who is incarnated(natural birth) must also experience spiritual birth or generation from above to enter into the realms of God.

paraphrased -

"Except a man is BORN (not baptized) of water(natural birth) and the Spirit(spiritual birth from above)...he cannot enter into the kingdom of God".

Man must go thru two births in his journey from incarnation to eventual resurrection/ascension in the Spirit.......- as he goes thru these birthings.....he can 'see' and 'enter' into the Kingdom!


paul

 

[rene]

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

James speaks of being justified by “works” as well as by “faith” (James 2:14-26), works which show faith to be real and vital.

Rewards are according to “works” (Matt. 16:27, see also Rom. 2:6 & 1 Peter 1:17). It is such that is the evidence of a new life. Reminds me of something that I heard taught on once, 'Would you be convicted of being a Christian if brought to trial?' If no evidence - the rest most will be able to reason out themselves.

So - lets go with the thought that baptism is a 'work' - that would then make it the evidence.

Why some find it so difficult to grasp the simple words spoken by Jesus as He was est. what to teach and what was to be done to est. His church - is strange.

 

[rene]

"Except a man is BORN (not baptized) of water(natural birth) and the Spirit(spiritual birth from above)...he cannot enter into the kingdom of God"."

My reply: Look up the word translated water - and you will find that it means exactly that - water.

ὕδωρ, ὕδατος
hudōr hudatos
hoo'-dor, hoo'-dat-os, etc.
From the base of G5205; water (as if rainy) literally or figuratively: - water.

If that doesn't help you to grasp, do an individual study of each word within the verse and you will see your suggestion is not supported by scripture.

There is human birth - when we are born. There is spiritual birth - when we come into the family of God.

 

[PastorZ77]

yeah, you've seen it in the movies...

"My WATER broke!!!!"

...or perhaps you experienced it yourself.

It's also interesting to consider Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus. Nic was puzzled because he automatically assumed that there was some WORK he had to do (expereince BIRTH, AGAIN!). Jesus said NO, don't marvel that I said you must be BORN AGAIN.

 

[rene]

It's amazing that you totally MISSED the point that Jesus made in that passage. Nicodemus also attempted to suggest Jesus was speaking of physical birth. You just made the same mistake that Nicodemus made.

 

[Kevin]

freelight,

There is nothing in this discourse/dialogue that suggests 'baptism'. The subject here is 'generation/birth'

Actually, the subject at hand is how one is REborn, not born. In answer on how to be reborn, Christ said you must be born of water and the Spirit. Why would you make the assertion that Chrsit is speaking of being born when that's not even the question?

And for you to say that this has nothing to do with baptism is FAR from the truth. Far from it. Ever read Romans 6, which speaks on baptism?

Romans 6:3-6
3) Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4) Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6) knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

This clearly is speaking about baptism and the fact that we die with Christ into death through baptism (verse 4). We die with Christ through baptism. Why? Look at the end of verse 4 - so we can walk in the NEWNESS of life.

If a person dies and then walks in the NEWSNESS of life, that person has been reborn into a NEW life. We do this through baptism.

 

[rene]

"Actually, the subject at hand is how one is REborn, not born. In answer on how to be reborn, Christ said you must be born of water and the Spirit. Why would you make the assertion that Chrsit is speaking of being born when that's not even the question?"

My reply: A point that some seem to want to ignore, miss, or just plain don't want to accept because it goes against what they believe.

As for me - I am going to go with what the bible clearly states.

 

[freelight]

the issue is generation/birth.....

the issue is generation/birth.....

Hello all,

rene comments:

My reply: Look up the word translated water - and you will find that it means exactly that - water.

ὕδωρ, ὕδατος
hudōr hudatos
hoo'-dor, hoo'-dat-os, etc.
From the base of G5205; water (as if rainy) literally or figuratively: - water.

If that doesn't help you to grasp, do an individual study of each word within the verse and you will see your suggestion is not supported by scripture.




)=============== My post stands - you may want to re-read it. For clarification..........the subject at hand in Jesus discourse with Nicodemus is 'birth' (being 'born from above' or 'born again') - there is no reference to baptism here. Perhaps you need to look up the word 'born' and see if your greek translates it to mean 'baptism' - then you might have some backing to your interpretation. Again,.......Jesus verifies and identifies what being 'born of water' is - by the following verse (6) -

5 - " Truth, truth, I say to you......unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he is not able to enter the kingdom of God.

6 - that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit".

The issue here is generation - being BORN. Jesus shows that being 'born of water' is analogous of being 'born of the flesh' in the contextual flow/order of the discussion. Do follow. There is no reference to baptism in this discussion except what you wish to infer, input, interpolate from outside...with your collective theology.

The emphasis Jesus is making thru-out this discussion is the being born of the SPIRIT - the spiritual generation, not the natural(physical) birth...although this is a requirement.....for a man to first become a man(human being, incarnated soul).

7 - "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again (born from above)."

The emphasis here is spiritual birth - being born from above. There is no inference or contextual evidence that Jesus is talking about water baptism anywhere in this dialogue.

'Born of water' implies the natural birth of the flesh - the natural route of man being born via his mothers birth sac....the embryonic fluid...which is water. This is supported within the CONTEXT.

This is not a discourse on baptism.


rene ends with:

There is human birth - when we are born. There is spiritual birth - when we come into the family of God.



)========== this is simply repeating what I shared in my commentary. :think: hmmmm. Please review. My position stands - until you can prove that 'born' means 'baptism' in this text.....your position is imposing an outside interpretation upon what is evident within the context which explains itself.


Kevin responded:

Actually, the subject at hand is how one is REborn, not born. In answer on how to be reborn, Christ said you must be born of water and the Spirit. Why would you make the assertion that Chrsit is speaking of being born when that's not even the question?



)============ Jesus shows what being born of water is - see verse (6). It is the first natural birth. His emphasis is being born again(from above) which is being born of the SPIRIT (which is the second birth - supernatural). This is the empahsis and theme of this teaching to Nicodemus - not some baptism. Therefore using this verse/text as a support for baptism has little ground/substance/backbone .....for 'water' baptism especially.

Jesus directs Nicodemus to the import of spiritual generation - a birthing not of this world - it is of the Spirit. The KEY and emphasis here is being born of the SPIRIT - the flesh profits nothing....except that man must incarnate to fulfill his souls mission/journey/purpose - however to 'see' and 'enter' into the Kingdom of God...one must experience a heavenly birth - this is the spiritual. BOTH NATURAL AND SPIRITUAL BIRTHS ARE NECESSARY in order for Man to see and enter into the Kingdom. Using verse (5) as a support for water baptism has no grounds....and is NOT supported by the context at all.

This is simply an observation. Lets be true to the immediate context in quest-ion.

shalom,


paul

 

[geralduk]

Originally posted by rene
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

NOTICE - JESUS said that except a man be born of water AND the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Baptism not important? Not what Jesus taught.

The "water" here quoted is NOT refering to baptism.
Though superficialy it might be thought so.
But is refering to the WORD.

"For without FAITH it is impossible to please God."
and we are SAVED or BORN again by GRACE through FAITH!
and how cometh this faith?
"By hearing (and that is not just hearing but UNDERSTANDING" the Word of God"
For it has pleased God by the foolishness of PREACHING(the Word) TO save THEM THAT BELEIVE"
So you cannaot be saved or BORNagain untill you have UNDERSTOOD the message of teh gospel and RECEIVED it.
For the kingdom of God is likened unto a man who went to SOW.... and if we read the FOUNDATIONAL parable we understand that the WORD is the SEED.
and unless the SEED fall into the ground and die it abideth alone But if it does it bringeth forth much fruit.
So it is the WORD that is SOWN first in the heart and MIND then QUICKENED by the Holy SPIRIT.

Some have said it refers to first the natural birth.
But the Lord was showing that the SPIRITUAL birth is LIKE unto the natural.
When a mother is about to give birth.
you have the BREAKING of the WATERS.
Then the show of BLOOD.
Then the NEW LIFE.

So too is the SPIRITUAL BIRTH.
You have the Word 'broken' to the UNDERSTANDING
Then the application of the BLOOD.
then the Holy Spirit giving new life.

But to go back to the WATER being the Word.

When the Lord wished to wash the APOSTLES feet and came to do Peters.
He at first refused to be washed,then when told that if he refused then he was not be His.
Then Peter said then lord wash ALL of me.
The lord replied that you are WASHED already but it is yoru FEET that need washing.
MEANING that thier WALK in this world collects the dust from it and has to be washed from ist pollution.
Was peter baptised?
No.
But it was the EXPOSURE and the RECIEVING of the WORD preached that WASHED Him(see proverbs or the psalms)
Judas on the other hand though haveing HEARD the Word ahd not alowed it to effect a WORK in him.

Now I am NOT saying that Baptism is not important it is VERY important but not for unto salvAtion but unto RIGHTOUSNESS.

But this scripture is not refering to it.

The WATER is in this case the WORD OF GOD.

James spoke of WORKS and PAUL spoke of WORKS that did not mean they were speaking of the SAME works!
One was the works of the LAW.
The other Works of FAITH.

So too here.
Though it is speaking of WATER yet if we look through the scriptures we see a number of diferent meanings for its use and apllication.
ALL truth is in HARMONY with all other truth of scripture and will and should dovetail togther into a whole.

In this case the seed of the WORD has to DIE as it were before the LIFE in it can come forth.
and even as the BODY of Christ was DEAD in the grave and had to be QUICKENED unto LIFE by the HOLY SPIRIT so too muist the WORD sown in our hearts and minds.
For the DEAD letter of the law killeth but the Spirit giveth LIFE.

So to be BORN again you must be BORN of the WATER/WORD and the SPIRIT.

 

[rene]

paraphrased -

"Except a man is BORN (not baptized) of water(natural birth) and the Spirit(spiritual birth from above)...he cannot enter into the kingdom of God".

My reply: a "paraphrase" is a noun. It means to restatement of a text or passage in another form or other words, often to clarify meaning.

The problem with your "paraphrased" comment of the biblical text - is that it isn't supported when looking at the original langage and meaning of the words.

It is NOT speaking of "natural birth" - thus the phrase, "born again" - set apart from natural birth. It is often used with reference to the beginning of the spiritual life or regeneration (John 1:13; John 3:3-8; 1John 2:29; 1John 3:9; 1John 4:7; 1John 5:1, 1John 5:4, 1John 5:18). It is most def. not addressing natural birth of a child - but directed to answer the questions of Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews, as is CLEARLY indicated by the comments Nicodemus replied back to Jesus.

 

[rene]

1Jo 5:5 Who is the one overcoming the world, if not the one believing [or, who is convinced] that Jesus is the Son of God?
1Jo 5:6 This is the One having come through water and blood-Jesus Christ; not by the water only, _but_ by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the One testifying, because the Spirit is the truth.
1Jo 5:7 Because three are the Ones testifying:
1Jo 5:8 the Spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are into the one [fig., agree as one].
1Jo 5:9 If we receive the testimony of people, the testimony of God is greater; because this is the testimony of God which He has testified concerning His Son.
1Jo 5:10 The one believing [or, trusting] in the Son of God has such testimony in him; the one not believing God, has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony which God has testified concerning His Son.

 

[JustAChristian]

Originally posted by geralduk
The "water" here quoted is NOT refering to baptism.
Though superficialy it might be thought so.
But is refering to the WORD.

"For without FAITH it is impossible to please God."
and we are SAVED or BORN again by GRACE through FAITH!
and how cometh this faith?
"By hearing (and that is not just hearing but UNDERSTANDING" the Word of God"
For it has pleased God by the foolishness of PREACHING(the Word) TO save THEM THAT BELEIVE"
So you cannaot be saved or BORNagain untill you have UNDERSTOOD the message of teh gospel and RECEIVED it.
For the kingdom of God is likened unto a man who went to SOW.... and if we read the FOUNDATIONAL parable we understand that the WORD is the SEED.
and unless the SEED fall into the ground and die it abideth alone But if it does it bringeth forth much fruit.
So it is the WORD that is SOWN first in the heart and MIND then QUICKENED by the Holy SPIRIT.

Some have said it refers to first the natural birth.
But the Lord was showing that the SPIRITUAL birth is LIKE unto the natural.
When a mother is about to give birth.
you have the BREAKING of the WATERS.
Then the show of BLOOD.
Then the NEW LIFE.

So too is the SPIRITUAL BIRTH.
You have the Word 'broken' to the UNDERSTANDING
Then the application of the BLOOD.
then the Holy Spirit giving new life.

But to go back to the WATER being the Word.

When the Lord wished to wash the APOSTLES feet and came to do Peters.
He at first refused to be washed,then when told that if he refused then he was not be His.
Then Peter said then lord wash ALL of me.
The lord replied that you are WASHED already but it is yoru FEET that need washing.
MEANING that thier WALK in this world collects the dust from it and has to be washed from ist pollution.
Was peter baptised?
No.
But it was the EXPOSURE and the RECIEVING of the WORD preached that WASHED Him(see proverbs or the psalms)
Judas on the other hand though haveing HEARD the Word ahd not alowed it to effect a WORK in him.

Now I am NOT saying that Baptism is not important it is VERY important but not for unto salvAtion but unto RIGHTOUSNESS.

But this scripture is not refering to it.

The WATER is in this case the WORD OF GOD.

James spoke of WORKS and PAUL spoke of WORKS that did not mean they were speaking of the SAME works!
One was the works of the LAW.
The other Works of FAITH.

So too here.
Though it is speaking of WATER yet if we look through the scriptures we see a number of diferent meanings for its use and apllication.
ALL truth is in HARMONY with all other truth of scripture and will and should dovetail togther into a whole.

In this case the seed of the WORD has to DIE as it were before the LIFE in it can come forth.
and even as the BODY of Christ was DEAD in the grave and had to be QUICKENED unto LIFE by the HOLY SPIRIT so too muist the WORD sown in our hearts and minds.
For the DEAD letter of the law killeth but the Spirit giveth LIFE.

So to be BORN again you must be BORN of the WATER/WORD and the SPIRIT.

Rightly has the songwriter written saying, "There are none so blind as he who will not see."

JustAChristian :angel:

 

[Kevin]

freelight,

Do you really believe "water" is referring to physically being born from a woman? Don't you think it sounds just a little silly for Jesus, when asked from a man who has already been born, to anwer the question of how to be reborn, with: (paraphrasing here) "Well, first you have to be born, and then you have to be born of the Spirit". Um... It's a given fact that anybody who has heard those words of Christ has already been born. Why would Christ need to point out that you have to be born first? That's a given! It's not like it's even an option! Christ listed two thing that are needed to be reborn, why point out one that we don't even have control over?

Christ was telling somebody, who was already born from a woman, how to be reborn, and I did make a direct paralell to baptism in Romans 6 showing the clear connection between baptism and being reborn.

 

[freelight]

birth, not baptism.......

birth, not baptism.......

Originally posted by Kevin
freelight,

Do you really believe "water" is referring to physically being born from a woman? Don't you think it sounds just a little silly for Jesus, when asked from a man who has already been born, to anwer the question of how to be reborn, with: (paraphrasing here) "Well, first you have to be born, and then you have to be born of the Spirit". Um... It's a given fact that anybody who has heard those words of Christ has already been born. Why would Christ need to point out that you have to be born first? That's a given! It's not like it's even an option! Christ listed two thing that are needed to be reborn, why point out one that we don't even have control over?

Christ was telling somebody, who was already born from a woman, how to be reborn, and I did make a direct paralell to baptism in Romans 6 showing the clear connection between baptism and being reborn.

)==============Greetings Kevin,................as I have shared already.....the 'born of water' Jesus was talking about is explained in vs. 6 as 'that which is born of flesh'. Jesus makes an analogy - and the natural fleshly birth is referenced as being 'born of water'. No, I dont find it silly that Jesus would emphasize the necessity of two births. My commentary on the text 'in the context' still holds.

Again, there is no contextual or grammatical proof that Jesus is referring to water baptism here - but if you wish to impose your interpretation on it.....have at it. Your cross reference to Romans 6 (by Paul) has little to do with Jesus dialogue with Nicodemus - as Jesus was not speaking about baptism. THE ISSUE IN JOHN 3 IS GENERATION/BIRTH. "You must be born from above" - you must have a supernatural, spiritual birth to see and enter the kingdom! Trying to make 'born of water' mean 'baptism in water' has no support.

Your attempt to make my interpretation look silly....has exposed your own inability so far....to prove that Jesus was speaking of water baptism in vs. 5. I have already explained the logic of my interpretation with you and rene.....which has greater contextual soundness and exegesis than the attempt to impose an interpretation upon the phrase, 'born of water'...which the context does not allow far...and that is explained by the next verse (6) as referring to a fleshly birth. In the context....Jesus is affirming Nicodemus understanding that he is talking about natural birth - see vs. 4. Jesus then acknowledges that along with natural birth....spiritual birth is necessary to enable one vision and entrance into the kingdom. Your interpretation of 'born of water' as referring to baptism has no support in the context of the dialogue. The interpretation I share makes more sense to me. Geralduk shares a similar view as me.....however he has his own application of what 'water' means in the text per his view.


paul

 

[Kevin]

freelight,

Your attempt to make my interpretation look silly....has exposed your own inability so far....to prove that Jesus was speaking of water baptism

I meant no malice or offense, and I sincerely apologize if it came off that way. It's just that it truly does seem silly to me that Christ would have to explain something that we have no control over, that's all. No offense intended.

Your cross reference to Romans 6 (by Paul) has little to do with Jesus dialogue with Nicodemus - as Jesus was not speaking about baptism.

I totally disagree, and you have yet to show me how my parallel isn't speaking of somebody being reborn.

Tell you what... let's start with a simple question. In order to be reborn, that means at one point we are already born, right? Do you agree with me so far?

 

[freelight]

Originally posted by rene
paraphrased -

"Except a man is BORN (not baptized) of water(natural birth) and the Spirit(spiritual birth from above)...he cannot enter into the kingdom of God".

My reply: a "paraphrase" is a noun. It means to restatement of a text or passage in another form or other words, often to clarify meaning.

The problem with your "paraphrased" comment of the biblical text - is that it isn't supported when looking at the original langage and meaning of the words.

It is NOT speaking of "natural birth" - thus the phrase, "born again" - set apart from natural birth. It is often used with reference to the beginning of the spiritual life or regeneration (John 1:13; John 3:3-8; 1John 2:29; 1John 3:9; 1John 4:7; 1John 5:1, 1John 5:4, 1John 5:18). It is most def. not addressing natural birth of a child - but directed to answer the questions of Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews, as is CLEARLY indicated by the comments Nicodemus replied back to Jesus.

)===============Hi rene,.................I have already tried to explain to you that Jesus is not speaking about baptism in this dialogue - I wont press the obvious anymore....as its pointless if one wont see. So.....like I said before.....superimposing your interpretation on the text is futile.

I have already explained that vs. 5 is clarified by vs. 6 - in orderly fashion - showing in the flow of the conversation....that Jesus is calling the being 'born in water' as 'that which is born of flesh'. Please read vs. 5 then 6. From what I see as evident in the context......this reference within the immediate context gives us a feasible and sound interpretation of the what 'being born in water' means. What Jesus is emphasizing is SPIRITUAL BIRTH/GENERATION. I see the being 'born again' as being 'born from above' - it is this BIRTH - a divine generation that is necessary for one to SEE and ENTER into the Kingdom. I stick with the essential meaning of the context.

Also......regarding the word 'BORN' - I already shared that unless this word can also mean baptism(immersion) then you might have some leeway in your analogy. However I am sure being 'born' has nothing to do with being 'baptized'. Regarding your list above of scriptural references of the word 'born' in the writings of John - not one of these references can be shown in their context to be referring to baptism, let alone water baptism. Your case is wanting.

Therefore.......I choose to stick to what the immediate context has to say about what Jesus meant when he said 'born of water' - and that was a fleshly birth. There is no grounds here for any argument for baptism....but what one wishes to superimpose on the text....which is interesting to me....as plenty of other verses expressly speak about baptism and use the word BAPTISM. Not here though.

I rest my case.


shalom,


paul

 

[freelight]

born from above......

born from above......

Originally posted by Kevin


Tell you what... let's start with a simple question. In order to be reborn, that means at one point we are already born, right? Do you agree with me so far?

)=============Hi kevin,............I was basing my understanding of being 'born again' as also meaning being
'born from above' - I got this out of the greek interlinear word for word translation from Westcott and Hort - I liked that translation - so......we need to first see if the english words 'born again' are the best words possible when translating the greek. That said,...........to your quest-ion above - to be reborn would imply a second birth....or a second time of generation.

Here we go again - follow the dialogue (Jesus & Nicodemus).

Nicodemus had in his mind......that Jesus was speaking of natural fleshly birth. - vs. 4
So then Jesus clarifies and acknowledges that man indeed must as necessary be born naturally - he answers ...."one must be born of water AND the Spirit...to enter the kingdom.......that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Jesus shows Nicodemus that indeed man is born naturally......but must be born again of the SPIRIT. Jesus is using what Nicodemus knew and was familiar with - and that was natural birth! Jesus using this known concept further conveys to Nicodemus that like one experiences natural birth(of the flesh)....one MUST ALSO experience supernatural birth(of the Spirit) to see and enter the Kingdom of God. One must be spiritually born to be an heir to the spiritual kingdom - one must be born of God to know God and the things of God. This is what I see Jesus is essentially conveying. To say Jesus is teaching on baptism here is false IMO. This is a simple observation as I shared earlier. What Jesus is communicating to Nicodemus is the necessity of being BORN OF THE SPIRIT - this is a spiritual generation that has nothing to do with a physical act of being baptized.

To summarize - Jesus teaches that being born again OF THE SPIRIT(or being born from above) is necessary to see and enter into Gods kingdom. This is the crux of the matter. You cant impose baptism into this dialogue or use it as a primary support for baptism as such a move while appearing to be valid...is dismissed after a more careful study.

The 'water' here I say as contextually supported refers to natural fleshly birth. Geralduk holds that 'water' referes to the Word. You and rene feel that somehow water refers to 'water baptism' or baptism in general. The latter is only inferred as having relative association by presupposition.

Well....I've spent enough time on this......

Blessings,


paul

 

[geralduk]

Originally posted by JustAChristian
Rightly has the songwriter written saying, "There are none so blind as he who will not see."

JustAChristian :angel:

A flat denial is no 'argument' for a refutation.

I gave an adequate scriptural basis for my thinking.
There is alot more you could add but space or time not permitting.

I have no problems with people refuting or 'arguing ' a case against what ive said.
But let it be in the same spirit and by the same means in which it was given.
For there is no profit to ANY in doing otherwise.

If you consider that I am ignorant of the truth or blind.
Then show me where and how.
But assertions of it is NOT enough.

To continue the 'argument' of water being the natural birth:
True you must be born into this world before you can the next.
But it does not take into consideration HOW we are BORNagain.
You cannot be BORNagain without a FAITH in God.
Nor can you be BORNagain JUST by the Spirit.
For the Holy Spirit does not work alone but ALWAYS in conformity with and to the the Word.
and so He came in the shape of a dove and RESTED upon the WORD made flesh.
It is the WORD that is PREACHED that God's 'foolishness' has chosen to save them that believe.
You have NO foundation for ANY faith in God unless you understand the MESSAGE!
You might believe in a God and even that Christ Died and was the Son of God.
But unless you UNDERSTAND the message as unto you and APPLICABLE to you also.
Not only of the LAW which convicts you of sin.
For if you are not convicted of sin why do you need a savior?
But who convicts of sin?
The Holy Spirit!
But HOW does He ?
By the preaching FIRST of the LAW!
it is no use tellign people they must 'just beleiev in Jesus'
WHY should they?
But when a man gets the convicion not only of his sin.
But also of hsi total inabilaty to save himself......
How?
also by the preaching of the WORD.
Then the preacher or they who are witnessing to them LEADS them to Christ.
and in the testomoany of the truth and the preaching of the cross then the eyes are opened to the ANSWER for sin.
and in UNDERSTANDING thety respond in faith and trecive the asnwer.
If it was the Holy Spirit ONLY on what then can He work!?
If not the WORD?
God SPOKE first in divers ways and in sundry places by the prophets.
But in theses last days has spoken by His Son who is the WORD.
It folows then that God ALWAYS SPEAKS by His WORD!
and what do we see?
But the WORD was FILLED with the HOLY SPIRIT and THEN He began to do the WORKS of God.
and what did He say?
MY WORDS are not my own words but the FATHER who is IN me He DOETH the WORKS.

Therefore it is the WORD AND THE SPIRIT by which we are BORNagain.
For without FAITH it is impossible to please God.
and "FAITH (in God) comes by hearing the Word of God"
That THE KINGDOM OF GOD is like unto a SOWER who went to SOW.
and so the WORD is SOWN in the heart and mind.
that we are BORN not of "corruptable seed "which is of the FIRST Adam.
But of that INCORRUPTABLE SEED which is Christ who is the LAST Adam.
Therefore we cannot be BORNagain unless the SEED of the WORD has been PLANTED!
fOR "EVERY SEED bringeth forth after its own kind"
and Jesus, speaking of Himself spoke of a "SEED falling into the ground and DYING"
Now if then the seed DIES how then can it bring forth life?
Was not "the exceeding mighty power that raised up Christ from the dead.." The HOLY SPIRIT?
and is it not "TOWARDS US WHO BELEIVE"?
so.........
then the WORD that is SOWN and BURIED in the heart and mind.
Is QUICKENED together WITH CHRIST.
and even as the WORD was buried and raised into LIFE by the HOLY SPIRIT so to then is the WORD that is SOWN in our our own hearts and minds QUICKENED to our understanding and reproduces itself in us and progresively "brineth forth after its own kind"

It is conclusive then that the 'WATER' here spoken of is the WORD of GOD without which we cannot have faith to be saved nor KNOW the truth.
For God is not willihg tnhat any should persih but that alls hould come to a knowledge of the truth.
and the commision of the church is to go and preach and "SOW abundantly"!