The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
- Start date
Shaun
New member
Do you follow everything Jesus taught?
If so, I'd like to talk to you, and see how you do it. Do they call you Saint Rene?
My point is, we are saved by grace. The propitiation at Calvary makes up for our failure to live like Christ did. We are not God, nor could we attain the things that God has said we should do. Jesus preaches about the first 2 commandments vastly more than baptism--but you don't see anyone following those completely, do you? This is why Christ's death was a propitiation--it redeemed our infirmities and lack of holiness in the act of faith that we give.
Like I said before--there is a difference between something we should do and something that saves us. The Bible makes it clear--it's nothing that we do that saves us, lest we boast. We are all liars, thieves, murderers and evil men and women. We are all sinners that deserve eternal damnation. It's only by the grace of God sending Christ as the propitiation that makes up for our iniquities. The only work of any value to Christ that is not a "filthy rag" is this:
John 6:28-29
28Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
I will never be able to follow all of the commissions that Christ commanded us to go and do. But that does not condemn me, for at the Great White Throne of Judgement, when Christ shows me how much of a sinner I am, and how self-absorbed, egotistical and evil I was in life; I will fall to my knees and ask that I be saved in the name of Jesus Christ as my saviour with all of my heart, soul and mind.
Lest I should boast.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
stringencies.......
stringencies.......
Hi Kevin - a few comments on your various comments below -
You wrote:
There is no plausible reason, in the immediate context, that Christ would use the illustration of natural birth. The subject at hand is how to be reborn, which means being being born AFTER already being born. So to answer that question, He said that you need to be born of water and the Spirit - and that in answer on how to be reborn - being born AFTER the natural birth- so there would be no reason whatsoever to be speaking about natural birth when the answer is relevent a birth that takes place AFTER one is already been born.
)=============== I thought I shared the reasons for my interpretation already. Following the dialogue....I see it quite plausible that Jesus would tell Nico that two births are necessary to enter into the Kingdom.......however....Jesus was emphasizing the second birth which is spiritual as the primary generation of emphasis - BORN OF THE SPIRIT. I should not need to further explain the obvious.
Born of water = born of the flesh/natural birth
Born of the Spirit = spiritual generation
The 'born of water' is explained in the following verse(6) as 'that which is born of the flesh'. This is being true to the immedial context. THIS CONVERSATION IS ABOUT BIRTH, NOT BAPTISM. - the second birth - a spiritual birthing into the kingdom of God.
Our disagreement is over the definition/designation of the term, 'born of water' - which I suggest is explained in the following verse as such would logically be the case in giving a 'teaching'.
You wrote:
That is your assumption that Nico only does not understand being born of the Spirit. If that were the case, I'm sure Nico would have specified that - "Ok, I understand the natural birth, but what do you mean about being born of the Spirit?" There is no hint of that at all in there.
)============== Come on Kev,..........we are given a little portion of limited dialogue here - I hold that Nico did not understand this spiritual birth Jesus was telling him about.
You wrote:
Well, you almost got it right. Jesus is not clarifying that TWO births need to take place, no, rather Christ is clarifying the two requirements of being reborn (which means that person has already been born) - water and the Spirit.
)============= Jesus is surely 'clarifying' that being BORN of water AND the Spirit are essential if one is to enter into the kingdom of God. I dont agree with your 'logic' above. HOW MANY TIMES MUST IT BE BROUGHT TO YOUR ATTENTION THAT THIS PHRASE - 'born of water' - DOES NOT REFER TO BAPTISM? What this phrase INDICATES is explained in vs. 6.
You wrote:
You would see that John 3 is indeed speaking of baptism if you would just read Romans 6 and try to explain to me how in baptism that we "die with Christ" and are reborn "walking in the NEWNESS of life." You have yet to show me how Romans 6 is not speaking of being born again.
)=============== I still do not see any correlation here of signficance...relative to the context of John 3. You keep bringing up Pauls mention of 'baptism' in Rom. 6 - this has nothing to do with John 3.....as Jesus dialogue with Nico is not about baptism - so....our presuppositions being different will not bring an agreement here - what is acknowledged is simply that we 'disagree' on the interpretation of John 3....and the more particularly the phrase, 'born of water'.
Rom. 6 has nothing to do with John 3. from my perspective....as I dont believe Jesus was speaking about baptism with Nico. Rom. 6 is simply a reference to Pauls teaching of being baptized into Christs death and and also being identified with his resurrection...whereby we walk in newness of life. What does this have to do with Jesus conversation with Nico? - Nothing.
You are correlating concepts of baptism and newness of life with being born again - these are relative figurations on your part.....following your idea that being born again is essentially by baptism. I contend that being born again is by spiritual generation...as Jesus taught. The physical act of water baptism is only an outward rite showing what has transpired or is transpiring spiritually in ones being - a testament.
You wrote:
I'm still waiting for you to show me how Romans 6 does not speak of rebirth. Are there two rebirths? You don't even attempt to address it.
)============= again I see no correlation between John 3 and Rom. 6 - the latter is speaking on being baptized into CHrists death and therefore his resurrection - of course this 'newness of life' can be called a 'born again' experience. This subject in Rom. 6 is baptism expressly - not about being 'born again' IN THE MANNER spoken of in John 3 by Jesus. We are dealing in semantics here -different meanings in the language employed and interpretations.
You wrote:
Jesus is answering ONE question here - how to be reborn. He lists 2 requirements - water and the Spirit.
)============= I dont see 'water and the Spirit' as 'requirements' - Jesus explains the 'necessity' of both forms of BIRTH as essential. Natural and spiritual.
You wrote:
It is you who takes water and Spirit and separates them into different births, which doesn't make sense considering the fact that Chist was answering how to be born again.... why would He mention a birth that has already happend when that's NOT the question at hand?
)=========== WHy wouldnt he? That he did is quite plausible if you follow the dialogue - Jesus simply shares with Nico.....that being 'born again' is a spiritual birth. One is first born naturally...then spiritually. One must first be physically born or how can he later be spiritually born?
final thoughts:
We agree that being born again is essential to see and enter the kingdom of God.....but we have different opinions about the manner of being born again and what it means.
We both agree that being born of the SPIRIT is essential....as the Spirit is Life.
peace,
paul
stringencies.......
Hi Kevin - a few comments on your various comments below -
You wrote:
There is no plausible reason, in the immediate context, that Christ would use the illustration of natural birth. The subject at hand is how to be reborn, which means being being born AFTER already being born. So to answer that question, He said that you need to be born of water and the Spirit - and that in answer on how to be reborn - being born AFTER the natural birth- so there would be no reason whatsoever to be speaking about natural birth when the answer is relevent a birth that takes place AFTER one is already been born.
)=============== I thought I shared the reasons for my interpretation already. Following the dialogue....I see it quite plausible that Jesus would tell Nico that two births are necessary to enter into the Kingdom.......however....Jesus was emphasizing the second birth which is spiritual as the primary generation of emphasis - BORN OF THE SPIRIT. I should not need to further explain the obvious.
Born of water = born of the flesh/natural birth
Born of the Spirit = spiritual generation
The 'born of water' is explained in the following verse(6) as 'that which is born of the flesh'. This is being true to the immedial context. THIS CONVERSATION IS ABOUT BIRTH, NOT BAPTISM. - the second birth - a spiritual birthing into the kingdom of God.
Our disagreement is over the definition/designation of the term, 'born of water' - which I suggest is explained in the following verse as such would logically be the case in giving a 'teaching'.
You wrote:
That is your assumption that Nico only does not understand being born of the Spirit. If that were the case, I'm sure Nico would have specified that - "Ok, I understand the natural birth, but what do you mean about being born of the Spirit?" There is no hint of that at all in there.
)============== Come on Kev,..........we are given a little portion of limited dialogue here - I hold that Nico did not understand this spiritual birth Jesus was telling him about.
You wrote:
Well, you almost got it right. Jesus is not clarifying that TWO births need to take place, no, rather Christ is clarifying the two requirements of being reborn (which means that person has already been born) - water and the Spirit.
)============= Jesus is surely 'clarifying' that being BORN of water AND the Spirit are essential if one is to enter into the kingdom of God. I dont agree with your 'logic' above. HOW MANY TIMES MUST IT BE BROUGHT TO YOUR ATTENTION THAT THIS PHRASE - 'born of water' - DOES NOT REFER TO BAPTISM? What this phrase INDICATES is explained in vs. 6.
You wrote:
You would see that John 3 is indeed speaking of baptism if you would just read Romans 6 and try to explain to me how in baptism that we "die with Christ" and are reborn "walking in the NEWNESS of life." You have yet to show me how Romans 6 is not speaking of being born again.
)=============== I still do not see any correlation here of signficance...relative to the context of John 3. You keep bringing up Pauls mention of 'baptism' in Rom. 6 - this has nothing to do with John 3.....as Jesus dialogue with Nico is not about baptism - so....our presuppositions being different will not bring an agreement here - what is acknowledged is simply that we 'disagree' on the interpretation of John 3....and the more particularly the phrase, 'born of water'.
Rom. 6 has nothing to do with John 3. from my perspective....as I dont believe Jesus was speaking about baptism with Nico. Rom. 6 is simply a reference to Pauls teaching of being baptized into Christs death and and also being identified with his resurrection...whereby we walk in newness of life. What does this have to do with Jesus conversation with Nico? - Nothing.
You are correlating concepts of baptism and newness of life with being born again - these are relative figurations on your part.....following your idea that being born again is essentially by baptism. I contend that being born again is by spiritual generation...as Jesus taught. The physical act of water baptism is only an outward rite showing what has transpired or is transpiring spiritually in ones being - a testament.
You wrote:
I'm still waiting for you to show me how Romans 6 does not speak of rebirth. Are there two rebirths? You don't even attempt to address it.
)============= again I see no correlation between John 3 and Rom. 6 - the latter is speaking on being baptized into CHrists death and therefore his resurrection - of course this 'newness of life' can be called a 'born again' experience. This subject in Rom. 6 is baptism expressly - not about being 'born again' IN THE MANNER spoken of in John 3 by Jesus. We are dealing in semantics here -different meanings in the language employed and interpretations.
You wrote:
Jesus is answering ONE question here - how to be reborn. He lists 2 requirements - water and the Spirit.
)============= I dont see 'water and the Spirit' as 'requirements' - Jesus explains the 'necessity' of both forms of BIRTH as essential. Natural and spiritual.
You wrote:
It is you who takes water and Spirit and separates them into different births, which doesn't make sense considering the fact that Chist was answering how to be born again.... why would He mention a birth that has already happend when that's NOT the question at hand?
)=========== WHy wouldnt he? That he did is quite plausible if you follow the dialogue - Jesus simply shares with Nico.....that being 'born again' is a spiritual birth. One is first born naturally...then spiritually. One must first be physically born or how can he later be spiritually born?
final thoughts:
We agree that being born again is essential to see and enter the kingdom of God.....but we have different opinions about the manner of being born again and what it means.
We both agree that being born of the SPIRIT is essential....as the Spirit is Life.
peace,
paul
Kevin
New member
freelight,
Well, ok. If you want to hold on to the logic that Christ would explain the natural birth in response to the question on how to be reborn, to a man that has already been naturally born, then go right ahead, but it makes no sense for Christ to explain something that is so obvious in regards to being born AFTER the natural birth. "Hey God... how do I make it to heaven? God then answers, well, first you have to be human...". That's just rediculous, but that's the logic you hold to.
That is your interpretation of the immediate context. I've tried to show you exactly what Christ meant by comapring the flesh and the Spirit by using other parts of the Bible to back my postition. But all you could do was come back with the weak argument saying "Were talking about what Christ said, not Paul". The flesh and the Spirit and are often compared throughout the NT, and not ONE time have I seen flesh referred to the natural birth process.
The conversation is about how to be reborn, and yes, it does involve baptism, as backed by Romans 6. But you don't want to see the paralells there. Rebirth is spoken about in both places, but all you can say is "Were talking about what Christ said, not Paul." Who do you think Paul received his ministry from?
Now hang on... let's go by the "immdiate context". Nico asked Christ a question in verse 4. Beginning with verse 5 and ending at verse 8, Christ answers his question. At verse 9, Nico speaks again asking "How can these things be?"
What are "these things"? Everything that Christ spoke about in verses 5-8. In the immidiate context, there is nothing to suggest that Nico understood anything that Christ spoke of in those verses, which is why he said "How can these things be?". Don't you find it a bit odd that there is not the slightest indication in the immediate context that Nico understood anything that Christ said during verses 5-8, yet Nico certainly would understand natural birth?
Just because you say it is not referring to baptism DOES NOT MAKE IT SO. I could say the same thing and ask HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT WATER IS REFERRING TO WATER BAPTISM - NOT NATURAL BIRTH.
There are many scholars that agree with my interpretation. I know there are commentators that side with you, but yours is a much newer "interpretation".
As referenced before by JustAChristian:
"There is not any one Christian writer of any antiquity in any language but what understands it of baptism...I believe Calvin was the first that ever denied this place to mean baptism. He gives it another interpretation, which he confessed to be new.” - William Wall (History of Infant Baptism)"
For one thing, Nico wasn't converted in that passage. Christ was explaining the necessity of being reborn.
Secondly Romans 6 says that we die with Christ in baptism. We die, crucifying the old man of flesh, that we may walk in the newness of life. So, through baptsm, we die with Christ, crucifying our old man of sin, and then we are reborn "walking in the NEWNESS of life.
In verse 11, is says that we are dead to sin, but alive to God.
Now that is certainly speaking of a rebirth... and this rebirth makes you ALIVE to God, which means that your are candidate for the kingdom of God. Jesus also spoke of a rebirth that would me people candidates for the kingdom God. It's NOT coincidence.
Oh... so you admit that Romans 6 is speaking about a baptismal rebirth, but it's not "IN THE MANNER" that Christ was speaking to Nico about. Interesting. So there are two ways to be reborn now? Christ simply says that one must be reborn to enter heaven... no mention of two rebirths.
As said before, baptism makes you ALIVE to God and DEAD to sin (Rom. 6:11).... that sounds like the spiritual rebirth Christ was speaking about. Otherwise you would have to say there are two ways to be reborn, which is required for salvation. That is not accepted at all by the Bible.
For the same reason that I would not tell you that you need skin if you asked me how to get a tan. It's totally unecessary and a given. No reason AT ALL to mention it.
Well of course one has to be naturally born to be spritually born, which is so obvious that it doesn't need to be said. What you can't seem to realize is that Christ is answering a question about rebirth, which happens AFTER the natural... and his answer said it involves 2 things: water and the Spirit.
Ok, well, to be reborn, one must first die, or else the person is still in his old life and is not reborn. There is only ONE way to die so that we can be reborn- BAPTISM. Show me any other way that we die with Christ besides baptism, from the scriptures.
Here's my proof:
Romans 6:4
4) Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life.
It is by baptism that we die with Christ and walk in the NEWNESS of life - being reborn. Now where's your verse to show that we die with Christ by any other means other than baptism? One has to die before they can be reborn.
Well, ok. If you want to hold on to the logic that Christ would explain the natural birth in response to the question on how to be reborn, to a man that has already been naturally born, then go right ahead, but it makes no sense for Christ to explain something that is so obvious in regards to being born AFTER the natural birth. "Hey God... how do I make it to heaven? God then answers, well, first you have to be human...". That's just rediculous, but that's the logic you hold to.
That is your interpretation of the immediate context. I've tried to show you exactly what Christ meant by comapring the flesh and the Spirit by using other parts of the Bible to back my postition. But all you could do was come back with the weak argument saying "Were talking about what Christ said, not Paul". The flesh and the Spirit and are often compared throughout the NT, and not ONE time have I seen flesh referred to the natural birth process.
The conversation is about how to be reborn, and yes, it does involve baptism, as backed by Romans 6. But you don't want to see the paralells there. Rebirth is spoken about in both places, but all you can say is "Were talking about what Christ said, not Paul." Who do you think Paul received his ministry from?
Now hang on... let's go by the "immdiate context". Nico asked Christ a question in verse 4. Beginning with verse 5 and ending at verse 8, Christ answers his question. At verse 9, Nico speaks again asking "How can these things be?"
What are "these things"? Everything that Christ spoke about in verses 5-8. In the immidiate context, there is nothing to suggest that Nico understood anything that Christ spoke of in those verses, which is why he said "How can these things be?". Don't you find it a bit odd that there is not the slightest indication in the immediate context that Nico understood anything that Christ said during verses 5-8, yet Nico certainly would understand natural birth?
Just because you say it is not referring to baptism DOES NOT MAKE IT SO. I could say the same thing and ask HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT WATER IS REFERRING TO WATER BAPTISM - NOT NATURAL BIRTH.
There are many scholars that agree with my interpretation. I know there are commentators that side with you, but yours is a much newer "interpretation".
As referenced before by JustAChristian:
"There is not any one Christian writer of any antiquity in any language but what understands it of baptism...I believe Calvin was the first that ever denied this place to mean baptism. He gives it another interpretation, which he confessed to be new.” - William Wall (History of Infant Baptism)"
For one thing, Nico wasn't converted in that passage. Christ was explaining the necessity of being reborn.
Secondly Romans 6 says that we die with Christ in baptism. We die, crucifying the old man of flesh, that we may walk in the newness of life. So, through baptsm, we die with Christ, crucifying our old man of sin, and then we are reborn "walking in the NEWNESS of life.
In verse 11, is says that we are dead to sin, but alive to God.
Now that is certainly speaking of a rebirth... and this rebirth makes you ALIVE to God, which means that your are candidate for the kingdom of God. Jesus also spoke of a rebirth that would me people candidates for the kingdom God. It's NOT coincidence.
Oh... so you admit that Romans 6 is speaking about a baptismal rebirth, but it's not "IN THE MANNER" that Christ was speaking to Nico about. Interesting. So there are two ways to be reborn now? Christ simply says that one must be reborn to enter heaven... no mention of two rebirths.
As said before, baptism makes you ALIVE to God and DEAD to sin (Rom. 6:11).... that sounds like the spiritual rebirth Christ was speaking about. Otherwise you would have to say there are two ways to be reborn, which is required for salvation. That is not accepted at all by the Bible.
For the same reason that I would not tell you that you need skin if you asked me how to get a tan. It's totally unecessary and a given. No reason AT ALL to mention it.
Well of course one has to be naturally born to be spritually born, which is so obvious that it doesn't need to be said. What you can't seem to realize is that Christ is answering a question about rebirth, which happens AFTER the natural... and his answer said it involves 2 things: water and the Spirit.
Ok, well, to be reborn, one must first die, or else the person is still in his old life and is not reborn. There is only ONE way to die so that we can be reborn- BAPTISM. Show me any other way that we die with Christ besides baptism, from the scriptures.
Here's my proof:
Romans 6:4
4) Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life.
It is by baptism that we die with Christ and walk in the NEWNESS of life - being reborn. Now where's your verse to show that we die with Christ by any other means other than baptism? One has to die before they can be reborn.
Last edited:
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
baptismal death............
baptismal death............
Hi Kevin,
You wrote:
Ok, well, to be reborn, one must first die, or else the person is still in his old life and is not reborn. There is only ONE way to die so that we can be reborn- BAPTISM. Show me any other way that we die with Christ besides baptism, from the scriptures.
Here's my proof:
Romans 6:4
4) Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life.
It is by baptism that we die with Christ and walk in the NEWNESS of life - being reborn. Now where's your verse to show that we die with Christ by any other means other than baptism? One has to die before they can be reborn.
)================Paul speaks of other ways we 'die' in order to live in the Spirit - he tells us to put to death the deeds of the flesh so that we might live (we consciously decide to by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the body) We also renew our minds and make a conscious decision to walk in the Spirit, walk in the Light - agreeing with what Jesus was telling Nico.....we need to walk in the generating power and liberty of the Spirit - for the Spirit is always giving us Life. Keeping our minds on the Spirit gives us life and peace.
It is also important to realize that Jesus baptizes us in/with the Holy Spirit - we are baptized(immersed) in the Spirit of God by the Lord Christ. We are all made to drink from one Spirit. We must realize our spiritual immersion in God thru Christ - becoming one spirit with Him. He in us, we in Him. This spiritual baptism is a 'putting into', 'immersion' or 'pouring out upon' dynamic - in this convergence we are immersed into Christ - putting on Christ.
The physical act of being baptized in water is an act done in conjunction with the actual experience of spiritual conversion - it in and of itself does not save or enforce a 'death' in anyone - one must continually 'by the Spirit' participate in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ - by spiritual union with Him.....in order to experience like salvation and victorious living. The physical act of water baptism only has power as it relates and correlates with ones baptism in Gods Spirit and the death and resurrection of Christ - the believer being identified with Him in spirit. Still.....the primary and central truth here is that Jesus Christ comes and baptizes us with the Holy Spirit and fire. John cam baptizing with water - but Jesus immerses and pours out upon us the Holy Spirit - this latter baptism is the essential for true generation - the water baptism being a physical act-representation of our identification with Christ - his death, burial, resurrection. The physical act in and of itself has no power apart from true spiritual application/experience in the Spirit of Christ. Hence.....while we do baptize in the name of the Lord......if one were to express faith/trust in the Lord and call upon his Name...but something prevented him/her from getting water baptized......then that ones faith and calling upon the Lord would have granted them salvation nevertheless.
Indeed coming up from the waters of baptism is an awesome experience....because it correlates with what we experience in the Spirit.
*It is interesting to note that it is written that 'Jesus did not baptize, but his disciples' - John 4:1-2......although rumor had it that he did. - John 3:26. I dont believe there is anywhere else where Jesus is said to have actually performed water baptisms with converts. His role according to John was to be our Baptizer in the Holy Spirit.
May your immersion be divine!
paul
baptismal death............
Hi Kevin,
You wrote:
Ok, well, to be reborn, one must first die, or else the person is still in his old life and is not reborn. There is only ONE way to die so that we can be reborn- BAPTISM. Show me any other way that we die with Christ besides baptism, from the scriptures.
Here's my proof:
Romans 6:4
4) Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life.
It is by baptism that we die with Christ and walk in the NEWNESS of life - being reborn. Now where's your verse to show that we die with Christ by any other means other than baptism? One has to die before they can be reborn.
)================Paul speaks of other ways we 'die' in order to live in the Spirit - he tells us to put to death the deeds of the flesh so that we might live (we consciously decide to by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the body) We also renew our minds and make a conscious decision to walk in the Spirit, walk in the Light - agreeing with what Jesus was telling Nico.....we need to walk in the generating power and liberty of the Spirit - for the Spirit is always giving us Life. Keeping our minds on the Spirit gives us life and peace.
It is also important to realize that Jesus baptizes us in/with the Holy Spirit - we are baptized(immersed) in the Spirit of God by the Lord Christ. We are all made to drink from one Spirit. We must realize our spiritual immersion in God thru Christ - becoming one spirit with Him. He in us, we in Him. This spiritual baptism is a 'putting into', 'immersion' or 'pouring out upon' dynamic - in this convergence we are immersed into Christ - putting on Christ.
The physical act of being baptized in water is an act done in conjunction with the actual experience of spiritual conversion - it in and of itself does not save or enforce a 'death' in anyone - one must continually 'by the Spirit' participate in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ - by spiritual union with Him.....in order to experience like salvation and victorious living. The physical act of water baptism only has power as it relates and correlates with ones baptism in Gods Spirit and the death and resurrection of Christ - the believer being identified with Him in spirit. Still.....the primary and central truth here is that Jesus Christ comes and baptizes us with the Holy Spirit and fire. John cam baptizing with water - but Jesus immerses and pours out upon us the Holy Spirit - this latter baptism is the essential for true generation - the water baptism being a physical act-representation of our identification with Christ - his death, burial, resurrection. The physical act in and of itself has no power apart from true spiritual application/experience in the Spirit of Christ. Hence.....while we do baptize in the name of the Lord......if one were to express faith/trust in the Lord and call upon his Name...but something prevented him/her from getting water baptized......then that ones faith and calling upon the Lord would have granted them salvation nevertheless.
Indeed coming up from the waters of baptism is an awesome experience....because it correlates with what we experience in the Spirit.
*It is interesting to note that it is written that 'Jesus did not baptize, but his disciples' - John 4:1-2......although rumor had it that he did. - John 3:26. I dont believe there is anywhere else where Jesus is said to have actually performed water baptisms with converts. His role according to John was to be our Baptizer in the Holy Spirit.
May your immersion be divine!
paul
Kevin
New member
freelight,
Ok, show me the verse where Paul mentions another way to die with Christ.
We put away the deeds of the flesh so that we many live, and yes it is a conscious decision to do so, but it is the act of BAPTISM, commanded by God, that is the means that this is accomplished. It's quite clear that it is through baptism that we "crucify the old man of sin" - thus putting away the deeds of the flesh.
Yes, and when you make a conscious decision to walk in the Spirit (following Christ), that will lead to baptism, as commanded by Christ. One who makes a decision to walk in the Spirit and does not obey Christ's commandments is not walking in the Spirit... they don't even know Christ:
1John 2:3-4
3) And by this we know that we have known Him, if we keep His commandments.
4) He who says, I have known Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Yes, Christ baptizes with the HS, but we have no commandment to be baptized by the HS because Christ does that, not us. We do however have commandment to be water baptized (Matt. 28:19-20). This baptism was meant for man to carry out, and it is meant for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), which Romans 6 also speaks about.
Water baptism isn't how we die with Christ? Hardly. That's exactly what Paul was speaking of in Romans 6. Romans 6 is speaking of water baptism, not Spirit baptism, for Paul himself practiced water baptism in the name of the Lord (Acts 19:5). Being baptized in the name of the Lord is done with water (Acts 10:47-48).
Water baptism is the act of obedience that is brought forth by our faith that allows us to die with him, crucifing the old man of sin, and being dead to sin but ALIVE to God (Rom. 6:11).
Continually participate in death? We would then never walk in the newness of life (being reborn), because we are continuosly participating in death.
But without being water baptized, we would not die with Christ, we would be alive to sin and dead to God. Water baptism is the act of obedience which allows this. God chose water baptism as the vehicle for the remission of sins, as seen in Acts 2:38.
Ok, show me the verse where Paul mentions another way to die with Christ.
We put away the deeds of the flesh so that we many live, and yes it is a conscious decision to do so, but it is the act of BAPTISM, commanded by God, that is the means that this is accomplished. It's quite clear that it is through baptism that we "crucify the old man of sin" - thus putting away the deeds of the flesh.
Yes, and when you make a conscious decision to walk in the Spirit (following Christ), that will lead to baptism, as commanded by Christ. One who makes a decision to walk in the Spirit and does not obey Christ's commandments is not walking in the Spirit... they don't even know Christ:
1John 2:3-4
3) And by this we know that we have known Him, if we keep His commandments.
4) He who says, I have known Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Yes, Christ baptizes with the HS, but we have no commandment to be baptized by the HS because Christ does that, not us. We do however have commandment to be water baptized (Matt. 28:19-20). This baptism was meant for man to carry out, and it is meant for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), which Romans 6 also speaks about.
Water baptism isn't how we die with Christ? Hardly. That's exactly what Paul was speaking of in Romans 6. Romans 6 is speaking of water baptism, not Spirit baptism, for Paul himself practiced water baptism in the name of the Lord (Acts 19:5). Being baptized in the name of the Lord is done with water (Acts 10:47-48).
Water baptism is the act of obedience that is brought forth by our faith that allows us to die with him, crucifing the old man of sin, and being dead to sin but ALIVE to God (Rom. 6:11).
Continually participate in death? We would then never walk in the newness of life (being reborn), because we are continuosly participating in death.
But without being water baptized, we would not die with Christ, we would be alive to sin and dead to God. Water baptism is the act of obedience which allows this. God chose water baptism as the vehicle for the remission of sins, as seen in Acts 2:38.
Kevin
New member
Thunderz7,
They were commanded to all nations and preach the gospel, baptizing them....(people not the land itself). Why is that so hard to conceive?
Peter understood. He went out and preached the gospel and baptized people in WATER (Acts 2:38, Acts 10:47-48), just as commanded by the Lord. So did Paul (1 Cor. Ch.1, Acts 19:5). Here are many occasions in Acts where people were water baptized. Why wouldn't this happen unless it was commanded by their Lord?
It was commanded by Christ, and the apostles didn't have any problem with how to baptize people....
They were commanded to all nations and preach the gospel, baptizing them....(people not the land itself). Why is that so hard to conceive?
Peter understood. He went out and preached the gospel and baptized people in WATER (Acts 2:38, Acts 10:47-48), just as commanded by the Lord. So did Paul (1 Cor. Ch.1, Acts 19:5). Here are many occasions in Acts where people were water baptized. Why wouldn't this happen unless it was commanded by their Lord?
It was commanded by Christ, and the apostles didn't have any problem with how to baptize people....
HopeofGlory
New member
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13
For the body is not one member, but many. 1 Cor. 12:14
Baptism by the Spirit is received by drinking.
The Lord is that Spirit (2 Cor 3:17) and the Spirit is Christ (Roms 8:9) and it is by Christ that we are baptized.
Baptism by the Spirit cleanses man on the inside and has nothing to do with the flesh (John 6:63). This baptism is also accomplished without water. The element of this cleansing must be received inwardly by believing the words of the new testament and thus we "drink" into the Spirit. We receive this spiritually (the breath of God enters into us), we do not drink His blood. Baptism by the Spirit accomplished what water baptism could not do in that it eternally cleansed the heart of sinners.
Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. John 4:10
Here Jesus is the agent and He is speaking in reference to the "gift" (Roms 5:18) and it is to receive by "drinking" the living "water" (Eph 5:26) that is the word of God. The word is the element God uses to wash us white as snow (Eph 5:27).
Christ is the Word (John 1:14) and the Spirit (2 Cor 3:17) thus he is both the agent and the element that baptizes us. What this leaves us with is that it is all Christ or it is nothing at all.
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63
We are born again by the word of God and washed by that word. The washing of the flesh is not needed.
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, Eph. 5:26
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Eph. 5:27
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.1 Pet. 1:23
For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 1 Pet. 1:24
If you open the valve of a irrigation tank did you baptize each seed in the field individually causing it to germinate? No, it would be impossible to do so but you did release the water thus giving life to all the seed the water immersed. Such is the spirit word (John 6:63) of the new testament for remission of sins (Mat 26:28) that Christ instructed the apostles to teach (Mat 28:19-20), it gives life (2 Cor 3:6) and we are born again through faith in it (1 pet 1:23).
For the body is not one member, but many. 1 Cor. 12:14
Baptism by the Spirit is received by drinking.
The Lord is that Spirit (2 Cor 3:17) and the Spirit is Christ (Roms 8:9) and it is by Christ that we are baptized.
Baptism by the Spirit cleanses man on the inside and has nothing to do with the flesh (John 6:63). This baptism is also accomplished without water. The element of this cleansing must be received inwardly by believing the words of the new testament and thus we "drink" into the Spirit. We receive this spiritually (the breath of God enters into us), we do not drink His blood. Baptism by the Spirit accomplished what water baptism could not do in that it eternally cleansed the heart of sinners.
Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. John 4:10
Here Jesus is the agent and He is speaking in reference to the "gift" (Roms 5:18) and it is to receive by "drinking" the living "water" (Eph 5:26) that is the word of God. The word is the element God uses to wash us white as snow (Eph 5:27).
Christ is the Word (John 1:14) and the Spirit (2 Cor 3:17) thus he is both the agent and the element that baptizes us. What this leaves us with is that it is all Christ or it is nothing at all.
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63
We are born again by the word of God and washed by that word. The washing of the flesh is not needed.
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, Eph. 5:26
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Eph. 5:27
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.1 Pet. 1:23
For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 1 Pet. 1:24
If you open the valve of a irrigation tank did you baptize each seed in the field individually causing it to germinate? No, it would be impossible to do so but you did release the water thus giving life to all the seed the water immersed. Such is the spirit word (John 6:63) of the new testament for remission of sins (Mat 26:28) that Christ instructed the apostles to teach (Mat 28:19-20), it gives life (2 Cor 3:6) and we are born again through faith in it (1 pet 1:23).
HopeofGlory
New member
And what would that be?:think:
Go teach, re-baptizing?:kookoo:
Freelight.
'show me where we die'?
HOW can imersion in WATER cause the old man to die!
For all it does is WET the OUTER MAN of the flesh.
We DIED........IN.......... CHRIST when He hung on teh scross and DIED!
hence "we are CRUCYFIED ............WITH..........CHRIST!
For even as we were IN the FIRST Adam and through his sin were made SUBJECT unto the CORRUPTION that came by sin and death by sin.
So were we IN Christ when He hung on the cross for OUR SAKES.
How?
By FAITH .
For what God WORKED OUT at CALAVRY He works IN us through faith.
AND THERE FORE BAPTISM is the OUTWARD comformity of the BODY to what God has ALREADY wrought in the HEART.
You cannot DIE by baptism
What it says is that we are BURIED(AFTER DEATH!) with Him.
You do not DIE being BURIED!
bUT ARE MADE comformable unto HIS death.
that we may be made comformable unto His resurection.
hence we are to teach all men to rpent and be baptised.
For baptism is the FOUNDATIONAL act of that "presenting our BODIES as a living sacrafice unto God which is our reasonable service" and by so doing we are folowing in the footsteps of Christ.
For was He (as it were) not saved when He was baptised?
Did He die?then?
No.
He was baptised to fullfill ALL rightousness.
and there are only TWO forms of rightousness.
That which is of the LAW.
and that "which is not of the law"
As No man is justyfied by the works of the law.
we cannot be saved by so doing.
But he for oursakes fullfilled the law and was therefore justyfied.
and also by FAITH was baptised and was declared rightous also.
and so presented HIS body a living sacrafice unto God even unto death even as we should.
'show me where we die'?
HOW can imersion in WATER cause the old man to die!
For all it does is WET the OUTER MAN of the flesh.
We DIED........IN.......... CHRIST when He hung on teh scross and DIED!
hence "we are CRUCYFIED ............WITH..........CHRIST!
For even as we were IN the FIRST Adam and through his sin were made SUBJECT unto the CORRUPTION that came by sin and death by sin.
So were we IN Christ when He hung on the cross for OUR SAKES.
How?
By FAITH .
For what God WORKED OUT at CALAVRY He works IN us through faith.
AND THERE FORE BAPTISM is the OUTWARD comformity of the BODY to what God has ALREADY wrought in the HEART.
You cannot DIE by baptism
What it says is that we are BURIED(AFTER DEATH!) with Him.
You do not DIE being BURIED!
bUT ARE MADE comformable unto HIS death.
that we may be made comformable unto His resurection.
hence we are to teach all men to rpent and be baptised.
For baptism is the FOUNDATIONAL act of that "presenting our BODIES as a living sacrafice unto God which is our reasonable service" and by so doing we are folowing in the footsteps of Christ.
For was He (as it were) not saved when He was baptised?
Did He die?then?
No.
He was baptised to fullfill ALL rightousness.
and there are only TWO forms of rightousness.
That which is of the LAW.
and that "which is not of the law"
As No man is justyfied by the works of the law.
we cannot be saved by so doing.
But he for oursakes fullfilled the law and was therefore justyfied.
and also by FAITH was baptised and was declared rightous also.
and so presented HIS body a living sacrafice unto God even unto death even as we should.
Kevin
New member
Howdy!
Howdy!
c.moore,
I never gave up. As I've said before, I had to drop out because I wasn't spending enough time with my family (participating in more than one thread didn't help). I can assure you that I didn't drop out for any other reason, or else, why would I be back again?
Har har. Hee hee. Ho ho. Perhaps if you ever understand what water baptism is all about and why it was commanded, you might stop poking fun at it.
Howdy!
c.moore,
I never gave up. As I've said before, I had to drop out because I wasn't spending enough time with my family (participating in more than one thread didn't help). I can assure you that I didn't drop out for any other reason, or else, why would I be back again?
Har har. Hee hee. Ho ho. Perhaps if you ever understand what water baptism is all about and why it was commanded, you might stop poking fun at it.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
immersion in the Spirit of God.....
immersion in the Spirit of God.....
Hello all,
kevin wrote:
We put away the deeds of the flesh so that we many live, and yes it is a conscious decision to do so, but it is the act of BAPTISM, commanded by God, that is the means that this is accomplished. It's quite clear that it is through baptism that we "crucify the old man of sin" - thus putting away the deeds of the flesh.
)================ this emphasis on 'baptism' is yours. I contend that the physical act of baptism in and of itself does not affect the soul unless that one by faith participates in Christ, (by the Spirit) thru identification with His death, burial and resurrection. The primary baptism is spiritual and our faith in Christ is the effectual element. The mere physical act of being dunked or sprinkled by water has no power in and of itself to save or cause one to be born again.
Kevin:
But without being water baptized, we would not die with Christ, we would be alive to sin and dead to God. Water baptism is the act of obedience which allows this. God chose water baptism as the vehicle for the remission of sins, as seen in Acts 2:38.
)=========== H20 does not save a soul or magically induce regeneration. 'Water' baptism is an outward act or rite performed upon one at conversion correlating and representing his faith in Christ - the process of identification with Christs death, burial , resurrection - by the Spirit. Ones faith in Christ and his actual union/participation with-in Christ in the Spirit brings LIFE. THe mere physical act of water baptism does not do this. Only when/if the rite of baptism is done in conjuntion with proper undertanding and effectual faith....is there practicality and profit.
This is what some of us are trying to share with you and those who hold similar views on 'water' baptism.
It is our baptism in God, in Christ, in the Holy Spirit.....that avails. IT is our faith in CHrist and the processes of the Spirit of God within and without that avail.
Water baptism is a rite - a sign of conversion and faith in Christ. The sign or physical act does not save a person....but the living faith of a person in Christ as the Life-giving Spirit effects salvation.
We obviously agree on this 'essential' - salvation is by faith.
Of course,.........as one hears and is able to be baptized in water as a 'sign' of conversion and faith in Christ.....then let nothing stop him. However to insist that one MUST be physically water baptized to be saved is spiritually ignorant - one may have faith in Christ and for some reason not have had a chance to be water baptized before his passing - his faith still avails as it is his FAITH that God recognizes.
There is no magic or transforming power in water. The transforming and saving power is the faith of God operating in one who has put their trust in Christ and the gospel of the kingdom....who by faith walks in the Spirit and Light....effecting a most glorious salvation. Our life and journey in God is a continual process of repentence and being perfected in Love - sanctification.
My statements stand as to 'what I believe' thus far in my journey......and so I share accordingly. Let the readers discern and choose what is true and right....if there be any value therein , etc. :angel:
"And this is the will of the Father who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
-Jesus
paul
immersion in the Spirit of God.....
Hello all,
kevin wrote:
We put away the deeds of the flesh so that we many live, and yes it is a conscious decision to do so, but it is the act of BAPTISM, commanded by God, that is the means that this is accomplished. It's quite clear that it is through baptism that we "crucify the old man of sin" - thus putting away the deeds of the flesh.
)================ this emphasis on 'baptism' is yours. I contend that the physical act of baptism in and of itself does not affect the soul unless that one by faith participates in Christ, (by the Spirit) thru identification with His death, burial and resurrection. The primary baptism is spiritual and our faith in Christ is the effectual element. The mere physical act of being dunked or sprinkled by water has no power in and of itself to save or cause one to be born again.
Kevin:
But without being water baptized, we would not die with Christ, we would be alive to sin and dead to God. Water baptism is the act of obedience which allows this. God chose water baptism as the vehicle for the remission of sins, as seen in Acts 2:38.
)=========== H20 does not save a soul or magically induce regeneration. 'Water' baptism is an outward act or rite performed upon one at conversion correlating and representing his faith in Christ - the process of identification with Christs death, burial , resurrection - by the Spirit. Ones faith in Christ and his actual union/participation with-in Christ in the Spirit brings LIFE. THe mere physical act of water baptism does not do this. Only when/if the rite of baptism is done in conjuntion with proper undertanding and effectual faith....is there practicality and profit.
This is what some of us are trying to share with you and those who hold similar views on 'water' baptism.
It is our baptism in God, in Christ, in the Holy Spirit.....that avails. IT is our faith in CHrist and the processes of the Spirit of God within and without that avail.
Water baptism is a rite - a sign of conversion and faith in Christ. The sign or physical act does not save a person....but the living faith of a person in Christ as the Life-giving Spirit effects salvation.
We obviously agree on this 'essential' - salvation is by faith.
Of course,.........as one hears and is able to be baptized in water as a 'sign' of conversion and faith in Christ.....then let nothing stop him. However to insist that one MUST be physically water baptized to be saved is spiritually ignorant - one may have faith in Christ and for some reason not have had a chance to be water baptized before his passing - his faith still avails as it is his FAITH that God recognizes.
There is no magic or transforming power in water. The transforming and saving power is the faith of God operating in one who has put their trust in Christ and the gospel of the kingdom....who by faith walks in the Spirit and Light....effecting a most glorious salvation. Our life and journey in God is a continual process of repentence and being perfected in Love - sanctification.
My statements stand as to 'what I believe' thus far in my journey......and so I share accordingly. Let the readers discern and choose what is true and right....if there be any value therein , etc. :angel:
"And this is the will of the Father who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
-Jesus
paul
Kevin
New member
freelight,
Actually, it was Paul who was emphasizing it in Romans 6. Why do you think he took the time to thoroughly explain the purpose of baptism?
I agree. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Baptism is a response to faith.
The Holy Spirit revealed the gospel to us through the apostles. When they spoke, they were inspired of the Holy Spirit, just as in Acts 2. The HS pricked the hearts of those men, and they repented and were baptized with water for the remission of sins. It is the HS which convicts men of their sins (John 16:8), and leads them to repentance and baptism, which is why Paul said in 1 Cor 12:13 that we are all baptized by one Spirit. If it weren't for the HS, we wouldn't seek God.
Who has claimed that water has magical powers? I didn't. Water is used in the baptism commanded by Christ, but that certainly doesn't make the water magical.
It is the act of obedience to the gospel (being baptized) which is done that we can have our sins cleansed by the blood of Christ. The blood of Christ will not do anybody any good who doesn't do what Christ commanded for the remission of sins - baptism.
I don't believe a person is converted until they are water baptized for the remission of sins. That's exactly why Peter commanded it in Acts 2:38 when the Jews asked what they must do to be SAVED. He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mark 16:16).
Without baptism, one is still dead in his sins. That was the whole purpose of being water baptized in the name of the Lord - so they wouldn't be dead in their sins.
Again, a person is DEAD to God while alive in their sins. Peter commanded WATER baptism in Acts 2:38 for the remission of sins. If your sins have not been remissed, no heaven for you. Again, he commanded baptism when the Jews asked what they must do to be saved.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit does not forgive sins. Water baptism in the name of Christ, does.
Common denominational definition which is not support by the Bible. It is not a sign of conversion because a person is not converted while they are still living in their sins. Water baptism is for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38). That's what water baptism is for - defined by the Bible, not man.
Absolutely. Without faith, a person is certainly doomed.
Again, they are not converted until baptism. See above.
I'm afraid the ignorance is on you my friend. When Christ commands that we be baptized for the remission of sins, then it must be done. He has plainly told us what we are to do to have our sins forgiven, and that is through baptism. If your sins are not forgiven, no heaven... therefore we MUST do what Christ commands for the remission of sins if we want to make it to heaven.
Those cases are in God's hands, but His word still stands... that we are to be baptized for the remission of sins. Taking a rare senario of somebody dying before they get a chance to be baptized and trying to use it to show that water baptism isn't necessary is not very wise. Christ commanded it, and it is expected to be obeyed. What if a person died while hearing the gospel but died before they got a chance to believe? What if senarios mean NOTHING. The word of God stands.
Again, agreed. Who claimed this?
But if this person does not get water baptized for the remission of sins as commanded by Christ... what can be said about their so-called "faith"?
Those who walk by the Spirit obeys the commandments of Christ. If they don't, they aren't walking by the Spirit, and they certainly don't know Christ according to 1John 2:3-5.
One who truly believes in Christ will keep His commandments. Again, 1John 2:3-5 is quite clear on that. To simply 'believe' and not act upon that belief will profit you nothing.
By the way... small world! I live in Beaverton, OR.
Actually, it was Paul who was emphasizing it in Romans 6. Why do you think he took the time to thoroughly explain the purpose of baptism?
I agree. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Baptism is a response to faith.
The Holy Spirit revealed the gospel to us through the apostles. When they spoke, they were inspired of the Holy Spirit, just as in Acts 2. The HS pricked the hearts of those men, and they repented and were baptized with water for the remission of sins. It is the HS which convicts men of their sins (John 16:8), and leads them to repentance and baptism, which is why Paul said in 1 Cor 12:13 that we are all baptized by one Spirit. If it weren't for the HS, we wouldn't seek God.
Who has claimed that water has magical powers? I didn't. Water is used in the baptism commanded by Christ, but that certainly doesn't make the water magical.
It is the act of obedience to the gospel (being baptized) which is done that we can have our sins cleansed by the blood of Christ. The blood of Christ will not do anybody any good who doesn't do what Christ commanded for the remission of sins - baptism.
I don't believe a person is converted until they are water baptized for the remission of sins. That's exactly why Peter commanded it in Acts 2:38 when the Jews asked what they must do to be SAVED. He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mark 16:16).
Without baptism, one is still dead in his sins. That was the whole purpose of being water baptized in the name of the Lord - so they wouldn't be dead in their sins.
Again, a person is DEAD to God while alive in their sins. Peter commanded WATER baptism in Acts 2:38 for the remission of sins. If your sins have not been remissed, no heaven for you. Again, he commanded baptism when the Jews asked what they must do to be saved.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit does not forgive sins. Water baptism in the name of Christ, does.
Common denominational definition which is not support by the Bible. It is not a sign of conversion because a person is not converted while they are still living in their sins. Water baptism is for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38). That's what water baptism is for - defined by the Bible, not man.
Absolutely. Without faith, a person is certainly doomed.
Again, they are not converted until baptism. See above.
I'm afraid the ignorance is on you my friend. When Christ commands that we be baptized for the remission of sins, then it must be done. He has plainly told us what we are to do to have our sins forgiven, and that is through baptism. If your sins are not forgiven, no heaven... therefore we MUST do what Christ commands for the remission of sins if we want to make it to heaven.
Those cases are in God's hands, but His word still stands... that we are to be baptized for the remission of sins. Taking a rare senario of somebody dying before they get a chance to be baptized and trying to use it to show that water baptism isn't necessary is not very wise. Christ commanded it, and it is expected to be obeyed. What if a person died while hearing the gospel but died before they got a chance to believe? What if senarios mean NOTHING. The word of God stands.
Again, agreed. Who claimed this?
But if this person does not get water baptized for the remission of sins as commanded by Christ... what can be said about their so-called "faith"?
Those who walk by the Spirit obeys the commandments of Christ. If they don't, they aren't walking by the Spirit, and they certainly don't know Christ according to 1John 2:3-5.
One who truly believes in Christ will keep His commandments. Again, 1John 2:3-5 is quite clear on that. To simply 'believe' and not act upon that belief will profit you nothing.
By the way... small world! I live in Beaverton, OR.
Thunderz7
New member
Many here are reading H2O into scripture where it is neither written or implied.
Try this one on -
Jn.19:34(ESV)-But one of the soldiers pierced his(JESUS) side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water.
Tell me again now,
how this BLOOD is enough for you,
but this WATER is not!!!
T7
Try this one on -
Jn.19:34(ESV)-But one of the soldiers pierced his(JESUS) side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water.
Tell me again now,
how this BLOOD is enough for you,
but this WATER is not!!!
T7
