The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
- Start date
rene
New member
Hopeofglory attempts to suggest: That was a feeble attempt at best to have us believe that the Lord instructed Ananias to command Paul to be water baptized.
My reply: No. It was a direct quote from the bible. You make the choice to dispute - it is with the bible, not me.
Just as your claims were incorrect about Paul in another comment, equally incorrect here as well.
My reply: No. It was a direct quote from the bible. You make the choice to dispute - it is with the bible, not me.
Just as your claims were incorrect about Paul in another comment, equally incorrect here as well.
Freak
New member
Then stop being spiritually immature and deal with Jesus words:
"...that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life."
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."
"Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty."
"For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
"I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved."
"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
No mention of water. I believe Jesus. You believe water.
HopeofGlory
New member
Re: Ever Learning But Never Able To Come To The Knowledge Of The Truth
Re: Ever Learning But Never Able To Come To The Knowledge Of The Truth
If all I have is a 'hope of glory' then I am satisfied.
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Col. 1:27
I listen but I don't believe the lies you spew.
I'm not a dispensationalist. They believe that Christ taught the gospel of the circumcision, I disagree. The 12 taught a gospel that was not fully revealed yet as Paul was called to fulfill the gospel without the law.
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Gal. 1:6
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. Gal. 1:7
There is only one gospel of Christ.
I did not need water to be born again!
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 1 Pet. 1:18
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 1 Pet. 1:19
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Pet. 1:20
Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1 Pet. 1:21
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 1 Pet. 1:22
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1 Pet. 1:23
For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 1 Pet. 1:24
Where is the water????
The form of doctrine that Paul delivered was the 'new' testament that Christ died for our sins NOT a baptism of repentance for remission. Would you care to prove otherwise???
Baptism unto the body is an operation of God by the Spirit NOT an operation of man with water!!!!
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Col. 2:11
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Col. 2:12
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13
Re: Ever Learning But Never Able To Come To The Knowledge Of The Truth
If all I have is a 'hope of glory' then I am satisfied.
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Col. 1:27
I listen but I don't believe the lies you spew.
I'm not a dispensationalist. They believe that Christ taught the gospel of the circumcision, I disagree. The 12 taught a gospel that was not fully revealed yet as Paul was called to fulfill the gospel without the law.
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Gal. 1:6
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. Gal. 1:7
There is only one gospel of Christ.
I did not need water to be born again!
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 1 Pet. 1:18
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 1 Pet. 1:19
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Pet. 1:20
Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1 Pet. 1:21
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 1 Pet. 1:22
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1 Pet. 1:23
For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 1 Pet. 1:24
Where is the water????
The form of doctrine that Paul delivered was the 'new' testament that Christ died for our sins NOT a baptism of repentance for remission. Would you care to prove otherwise???
Baptism unto the body is an operation of God by the Spirit NOT an operation of man with water!!!!
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Col. 2:11
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Col. 2:12
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13
HopeofGlory
New member
:up:
Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, '''who mind earthly things'''.) Phil. 3:19
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Phil. 3:20
rene
New member
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.
Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Act 8:36 And as they went on [their] way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, [here is] water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Act 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
Act 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard [us]: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
Act 16:15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought [us], saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide [there]. And she constrained us.
Act 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
All these scriptures reflect and show that it was followed what was spoken of by Jesus before He went back to heaven:
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Such was followed by the believers to those that they shared the gospel with and they indeed followed the words of Jesus.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.
Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Act 8:36 And as they went on [their] way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, [here is] water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Act 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
Act 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard [us]: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
Act 16:15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought [us], saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide [there]. And she constrained us.
Act 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
All these scriptures reflect and show that it was followed what was spoken of by Jesus before He went back to heaven:
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Such was followed by the believers to those that they shared the gospel with and they indeed followed the words of Jesus.
rene
New member
Hopeofglory writes: I believe His words just as they were spoken without the addition of water.
My reply: Did you know that the same word is used in Greek today for baptism that they use for a sunken ship? ALL followers of Jesus have the Holy Spirit. That was part of the promise.
My reply: Did you know that the same word is used in Greek today for baptism that they use for a sunken ship? ALL followers of Jesus have the Holy Spirit. That was part of the promise.
HopeofGlory
New member
The water baptized at Pentecost believed in the OLD testament message "for" remission of sins that had it's inception concerning the nation of Israel as a whole with John the Baptist. This national priestly remission (Ex. 19:6) through obedience was in effect (Mark 1 :4) before the New testament (Matt 26:28) of His shed blood "for" remission was given. The simplicity of this truth is clearly revealed. The Peterine message at Pentecost was the same as John the Baptist’s message before the cross. It is of extreme importance that we understand the new testament is a better witness (John 5:36) and was not effectual until after the death of Christ (Heb. 9:17).
The kingdom was taken because of unbelief.
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Rom. 11:19 (KJV)
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: Rom. 11:20 (KJV)
Branches are believers (John 15:5) not unbelievers! They were to continue to abide (John 15:4) until all things had become "new" (2 Cor 5:17). It is the new that they did not believe. The new message became a Gentile message...Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. Isa. 60:15 (KJV)
Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles... Isa. 60:16 (KJV)
Israel was God's chosen to deliver this "new" testament (greater witness(John 5:36) to the world but because of unbelief it went to the Gentiles.
The elect that became believers through repentance and water baptism were enemies of the gospel of Christ but He will graft them in AGAIN.
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Rom. 11:27 (KJV)
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. Rom. 11:28 (KJV)
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Rom. 11:29 (KJV)
For as ye (Gentiles) in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Rom. 11:30 (KJV)
Even so have these (elect) also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. Rom. 11:31 (KJV)
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. Rom. 11:32 (KJV)
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! Rom. 11:33 (KJV)
The Gentiles freely accepted the new eternal testament (Acts 13:48) because they were without the law. It is a matter of simple logic to realize one trained from birth that the law of obedience gives remission will not easily understand a “new’ testimony completely opposite of the old testimony in that the law is an offence to the new. This was the monumental task given to Paul and is evident in all his epistles. Paul’s knowledge of the “new” testament came by revelation of mysteries that were progressively revealed.
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; Eph. 3:8 (KJV)
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Eph. 3:9 (KJV)
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, Eph. 3:10 (KJV)
According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: Eph. 3:11 (KJV)
God’s purpose was to deliver the “eternal” message of the “new” testament. If the apostles at Pentecost had clearly delivered that “incorruptible eternal” message of the blood of Christ for remission of sins then there would have been no need for Christ to have called Paul into the ministry. The eternal message would now have to be received through the Gentiles.
Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. Isa. 60:15 (KJV)
Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. Isa. 60:16 (KJV)
As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 1 Pet. 2:2 (KJV)
Those of us who believe the new testament for remission are chosen by God to deliver the eternal message whereby we can have all men see what is the manifold wisdom of God.
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. 1 Tim. 6:12 (KJV)
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 2 Pet. 3:15 (KJV)
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Pet. 3:16 (KJV)
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 2 Pet. 3:17 (KJV)
The kingdom was taken because of unbelief.
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Rom. 11:19 (KJV)
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: Rom. 11:20 (KJV)
Branches are believers (John 15:5) not unbelievers! They were to continue to abide (John 15:4) until all things had become "new" (2 Cor 5:17). It is the new that they did not believe. The new message became a Gentile message...Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. Isa. 60:15 (KJV)
Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles... Isa. 60:16 (KJV)
Israel was God's chosen to deliver this "new" testament (greater witness(John 5:36) to the world but because of unbelief it went to the Gentiles.
The elect that became believers through repentance and water baptism were enemies of the gospel of Christ but He will graft them in AGAIN.
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Rom. 11:27 (KJV)
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. Rom. 11:28 (KJV)
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Rom. 11:29 (KJV)
For as ye (Gentiles) in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Rom. 11:30 (KJV)
Even so have these (elect) also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. Rom. 11:31 (KJV)
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. Rom. 11:32 (KJV)
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! Rom. 11:33 (KJV)
The Gentiles freely accepted the new eternal testament (Acts 13:48) because they were without the law. It is a matter of simple logic to realize one trained from birth that the law of obedience gives remission will not easily understand a “new’ testimony completely opposite of the old testimony in that the law is an offence to the new. This was the monumental task given to Paul and is evident in all his epistles. Paul’s knowledge of the “new” testament came by revelation of mysteries that were progressively revealed.
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; Eph. 3:8 (KJV)
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Eph. 3:9 (KJV)
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, Eph. 3:10 (KJV)
According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: Eph. 3:11 (KJV)
God’s purpose was to deliver the “eternal” message of the “new” testament. If the apostles at Pentecost had clearly delivered that “incorruptible eternal” message of the blood of Christ for remission of sins then there would have been no need for Christ to have called Paul into the ministry. The eternal message would now have to be received through the Gentiles.
Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. Isa. 60:15 (KJV)
Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. Isa. 60:16 (KJV)
As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 1 Pet. 2:2 (KJV)
Those of us who believe the new testament for remission are chosen by God to deliver the eternal message whereby we can have all men see what is the manifold wisdom of God.
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. 1 Tim. 6:12 (KJV)
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 2 Pet. 3:15 (KJV)
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Pet. 3:16 (KJV)
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 2 Pet. 3:17 (KJV)
HopeofGlory
New member
Well, Noah was saved in a ship that did not sink therefore he did not get wet. I guess your ship sunk.
rene
New member
Hopeofglory writes: The water baptized at Pentecost believed in the OLD testament message "for" remission of sins that had it's inception concerning the nation of Israel as a whole with John the Baptist.
My reply - ahhh - do you know when some of these letters were written?? Do you know the span of time that it covers?? not to mention that all are not even to those that came from a Jewish mindset??
Even if it were as you suggest about Acts 2 - which I don't agree with if one takes the time to go back are research from the original Greek the words - your attempt to place that same logic on something that happened no where near the same time, place, or even with the same people is not just far fetched - it is illogical and shows a total lack of serious study. Do you not understand that the first believers were indeed of the belief of the nation of Israel - whereas many of those quotes from the bible are to churches that were NOT of that same prior belief?? That it was about 10 YEARS before those that were not of Jewish background even became Christians??
My reply - ahhh - do you know when some of these letters were written?? Do you know the span of time that it covers?? not to mention that all are not even to those that came from a Jewish mindset??
Even if it were as you suggest about Acts 2 - which I don't agree with if one takes the time to go back are research from the original Greek the words - your attempt to place that same logic on something that happened no where near the same time, place, or even with the same people is not just far fetched - it is illogical and shows a total lack of serious study. Do you not understand that the first believers were indeed of the belief of the nation of Israel - whereas many of those quotes from the bible are to churches that were NOT of that same prior belief?? That it was about 10 YEARS before those that were not of Jewish background even became Christians??
rene
New member
Hopeofglory writes: Well, Noah was saved in a ship that did not sink therefore he did not get wet. I guess your ship sunk.
My reply: Hey, if you want to sink to the same childish level that Freak has - I see no reason to carry this on further. To discuss the bible is one thing - to waste good time that could be spent sharing the truth found within scripture with foolishness is not something that I do.
My reply: Hey, if you want to sink to the same childish level that Freak has - I see no reason to carry this on further. To discuss the bible is one thing - to waste good time that could be spent sharing the truth found within scripture with foolishness is not something that I do.
HopeofGlory
New member
Your reliance on man's ability to interpret the Greek and determine the times that letters were written is illogical. I study as instructed by the scriptures.
Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Tim. 2:15
But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 2 Tim. 2:16
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1 Cor. 2:13
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor. 2:14
rene
New member
Hopeofglory - I went to college to study Greek and Hebrew. I didn't depend on anyone. I prayed to for guidance in my study to God. I then translated. I indeed study to show myself approved. I have also asked that foolish talk and going back to serious discussion happen. My hope is that such can be done.
To this time, I have stated that I don't disagree about faith being within the bible and that it is indeed very important. What you seemed to have not noticed or wish to ignore is that you haven't addressed any of the many scriptures that point to baptism. Till you do that - there really is no discussion since you and a few others can't seem to focus on the other portions of scripture and discuss them in a mature fashion that reflects a Christian attitude and respect for scripture.
To this time, I have stated that I don't disagree about faith being within the bible and that it is indeed very important. What you seemed to have not noticed or wish to ignore is that you haven't addressed any of the many scriptures that point to baptism. Till you do that - there really is no discussion since you and a few others can't seem to focus on the other portions of scripture and discuss them in a mature fashion that reflects a Christian attitude and respect for scripture.
CoCrucified
New member
Rene,
I was baptized too, but after I had already accepted salvation through having faith in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross. Nearly every Christian I've known has been baptized as well. We were baptized in order to demonstrate the fact the we were identified with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, when we became Born Again. I would expect, as you say, that all believers in the New Testament would indeed have been baptized.
I'm not saying believers should not be baptized. We just need to be clear that baptism is a witness of what has already happened to us, and that our works cannot save us.
"Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,"
Romans 6:3-5 (NKJV)
BTW, Rene, It's great that you are studying Greek and Hebrew. I had some Greek in College, but I wish I had continued my studies.
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HopeofGlory
New member
I hope you enjoyed your study of Greek but I am not here to discuss your ability or anyone else's to interpret it. I am however interested in what the scriptures have to say and I am able to defend my belief by comparing scripture with scripture. I don't believe you have offered serious debate because that requires a point by point rebuttle.
I have addressed the scriptures that point to baptism, are you blind are want?
If you wish to restart our debate then address whatever scripture on baptism you choose with you interpretation of it and I will give a point by point rebuttle and if you respond in like manner we will have a true debate. I am not interested in wasting my time on responding to foolish remarks made without the scripture to back it up.
rene
New member
Personally, I don't believe that baptism saves. I don't think faith saves. The ONLY salvation is thru the grace of Jesus to those that will obey His teachings. To have access to this wonderful gift means that one follows the teachings of Jesus. No picking and making choice of the ones that you want to follow. That also means that one will have to have faith (that comes from God - all those that come to Him have been given a 'measure of faith') and should also be baptized (as instructed by Jesus).
What I have personally seen is that many people claim to be Christians - and maybe they are, for only God really knows for sure - but haven't even followed in the basics, haven't followed the instructions left to help est. the church. How can this be?? With all that is written within the NT of baptism - how can one fall into such a thought? To these people, I point to the many scriptures that address baptism. No longer just in disagreement with me, they now are shown that they are in disagreement with the bible. This stops all such comments except with the not to mature who seem intent on seeing their choice of names - since they don't use anything even close to their real name. Those types - I ignore till they mature more.
People will get all caught up in all sorts of manmade thoughts and suggest that baptism is not important - some even suggesting that it is not relevant for the Christian today. To these people, I point them to the very words of Jesus. Do this for the simple reason that they then are no longer in disagreement just with me - they then are going to dispute with Jesus and His words. Usually that makes a few at least think. Some that I have talked to about it - after some study finally got inline with His words. Just makes me praise God for the working of His Holy Spirit to reveal His words and truth to them.
What I have personally seen is that many people claim to be Christians - and maybe they are, for only God really knows for sure - but haven't even followed in the basics, haven't followed the instructions left to help est. the church. How can this be?? With all that is written within the NT of baptism - how can one fall into such a thought? To these people, I point to the many scriptures that address baptism. No longer just in disagreement with me, they now are shown that they are in disagreement with the bible. This stops all such comments except with the not to mature who seem intent on seeing their choice of names - since they don't use anything even close to their real name. Those types - I ignore till they mature more.
People will get all caught up in all sorts of manmade thoughts and suggest that baptism is not important - some even suggesting that it is not relevant for the Christian today. To these people, I point them to the very words of Jesus. Do this for the simple reason that they then are no longer in disagreement just with me - they then are going to dispute with Jesus and His words. Usually that makes a few at least think. Some that I have talked to about it - after some study finally got inline with His words. Just makes me praise God for the working of His Holy Spirit to reveal His words and truth to them.