The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[HopeofGlory]

Hey Apollos,

Jesus gave a commission in Matthew 28:18f for the disciples to go into all the world, teach, baptize, and observe all things whatsoever He commanded . This commission is for the entire world! That is really GREAT – don’t you think? This is a great commission!!

1- Jesus did not say go unto all the world and baptize. He said “teach all nations, baptizing them” (Matt. 28:19).

How then did they receive baptism? By the teaching!!!

2- Jesus did not say baptize in water.

His instructions were complete without the word water.

3- Peter did not understand it as to the world.

He told the house hold of Cornelius... it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation... Acts 10:28 (KJV)

4- The Great Commission is not found in the bible.

There is no such doctrine to be found taught by the Lord.

5- What Jesus taught was a greater witness not a greater water baptism.

But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. John 5:36 (KJV)

Both witnesses were for remission of sins and Christ gave this message to the apostles....

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)

6- The apostles did not obey His instructions to teach all things He had commanded because the Pentecostal message is void of this greater witness. This reveals that the Great Commission doctrine of men is not Gods.

Within this commission Jesus commanded a baptism “into the name of the Father, Son, and HS”. Such a command for and such a BAPTISM as this, was never given BEFORE. You will not find it!

What you did not find is where anybody was baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. You have been ask to supply the verses but you came up empty handed. This same supposition goes hand in hand with the Great Commission doctrine. Man has substituted the Great Commission for the greater witness of God.

The truth of the matter is that the Baptist (Mark 1:4) and Peter (Acts 2:38) taught the same baptism of repentance for remission of sins and you have failed to prove otherwise.

In Christ
Craig

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

Quote Kevin

I never claimed that faith came from obedience! Sheesh! Faith comes by hearing the word of God. But that faith is useless unless it's acted upon.


Quote c.moore
Don`t you have to believe the word when you hear it first before wanting to act on it or upon it??????????

I'm not sure what you are getting at, c.moore. When a person hears the word, they either believe it or they don't. Those who believe should act upon the gospel and obey it, which includes baptism. To hear and believe, yet not obey, is absolutely worthless.

Quote kevin
Judgement day is when we are deemed worthy, or not worthy, to enter heaven, according to the judgement of Christ. Judgement day is not to give out rewards.

Quote c.moore
Then what does this mean Ro:8:1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit???

Joh:3:18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh:5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Ro:8:34: Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

And I believe these are all true. This doesn't mean that once you've accepted Christ, you are saved no matter what (OSAS). You can turn your back on God and fall out of grace! Have you changed your beliefs, c.moore? Do you now accept OSAS?

Salvation is a life long process, we have to be faithful - which includes keeping His commandments - to the end:

Revelation 2:10
10) Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Salvation is not a one time event. We can enter His graces and be in a state of salvation while human, but we have to be faithful to the point of death to recieve the crown of life.

If a person is not condemned my understanding is that he or she is going to heaven and there is no need for judgement if they are not condemned.

As long as they remain faithful, you're right, there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. Again, are you now an OSAS believer?

1Co:9:17: For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
2Jo:1:8: Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

2Co:5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1Co:3:8: Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
1Co:3:9: For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
1Co:3:10: According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Co:3:11: For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co:3:12: Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co:3:13: Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co:3:14: If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co:3:15: If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This has already been addressed when you brought this up a while back. This has nothing to do with the fact that we are going to be judged by Christ, and it will have a direct effect upon our salvation.

ServantofChrist did a great job explaining to you the passage you've quoted. Here's what he said:

"Hello C. Moore,

I read your post concerning 1 Cor. 3:5-15, and you still haven't got it right.

Paul is talking about members of the church in Corinth building on the foundation of Christ (v. 11). And he shows by examples of himself and Apollos that building on that foundation means people using the various talents and abilities that God has given us to build up His church in our locale. To show what he means, Paul says that he planted (the seed of God's word) and Apollos watered (nurtured and reinforced Paul's teaching and work): each using his God-given abilities to build up the church there.

Now watch the following principle emerge from v. 8, knowing that nothing else anywhere in the scriptures contradicts it - "Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward ACCORDING TO HIS OWN LABOR" (which is another way of saying, according to his own work).

But in v. 14, Paul says that though a person's work may be "burned up" and he "suffers loss," he himself will be saved. What does he mean? The following example will show the principle he is teaching:

Preachers have gone into Africa and planted the seed of God's word through preaching. In so doing, they have planted churches where they did not exist before; where Christians meet together to worship and help each other in carrying out God's will in their life over in that part of the world. Therefore, these preachers have performed a good "labor" or "work" there. Some of these churches continue on. But in certain places, Muslims have stormed in and murdered the Christians, destroyed their place of worship, and driven the rest from their homes and villages and scattered them abroad. Therefore, although the church does not meet at that particular place anymore because Muslims forcibly prevent the church from existing there, yet he who labored there in planting the word and getting the Lord's church started may suffered the loss of his work, but he himself will be saved, "yet so as through fire" (v. 15). What fire? The "fire" spoken of in v. 13 - "each one's work will become manifest; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it was."

And remember, in conjunction with the above thought, v. 8 says - "each one will receive his own reward ACCORDING TO HIS OWN LABOR." In other words, when the Day of Judgment comes and EVERYTHING is revealed, it will be shown that although those murdering Muslims took away the Lord's church at that locale, still, that preacher did his part - his labor or work - of obeying the Lord's command to use his talent of preaching the word - and his OBEDIENCE to the word of Christ will be what SAVES him! (This is what we've been pointing out all along, Heb. 5:9)

And this same, exact principle applies to us today - God has given to each one of us special talents or abilities that we are to use to the building up of the Lord's church in our locale. In doing so, we are doing what we were "created in Christ Jesus to do" in the first place - "good works" (Eph. 2:10).

Therefore, your attempt to make this verse teach that baptism is not necessary for salvation shows that you don't really understand what the passage is teaching. It teaches, or implies, no such thing.

And just one final thing here, Mr. Moore: If you think that this passage in 1 Cor. 3 - or any other passage - teaches the principle that works have nothing to do with being saved, then, knowing that God's word does not contradict itself, would you please harmonize your view of 1 Cor. 3:5-15 with the words of Jesus in Matt. 25:41-46?"

Your passage shows nothing that would indicate that Judgement Day isn't where we are judged worthy of salvation or not.



We already have a clear example of what will happen on Judgement Day in Matt 25:31-46

First, we must establish that this is speaking of Judgement Day:

31) "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
32) Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,

Jesus comes in all His glory, all the angels will be with Him, and all the nations will be gathered before Him. This is Judgement Day. So now the question is what happens on Judgement Day? The answer starts in the last part of verse 32:

32) ...and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,
33) and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.

So, Jesus will seperate them - the sheep will be at His right hand, and the goats at His left. This is what will happen on Judgement Day. Now, what happens to those at the right and left hands?

The sheep at the right hand (verse 34):
34) Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;

The sheep were seperated from the goats by being judged and the sheep were told to inherit Heaven. Tell me that has no bearing on salvation!!??

So, what happens to the goats at the left hand? Verse 41:

41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;

The goats were seperated from the sheep, being judged, and were thrown into Hell! So, explain to me again how Judgement Day isn't to determine who is saved and who is not? We have a clear example of Judgement Day, and what happens on that Day. People were gathered, seperated (by being JUDGED), and sent to either Heaven or Hell.

 

[HopeofGlory]

Paul was NOT commissioned to water baptize!!!

Paul was NOT commissioned to water baptize!!!

Water Baptism first occurred with John the Baptist. We must consider why it was done and who it was done to. Let’s believe in God’s word rightly dividing without adding anything to it.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

John 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

Manifest means to readily perceive with the eye or the understanding.
Baptism with water is to immerse in water.
Israel not to the Gentiles! Because the Jews would not believe unless they received a sign.

1 Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

The manifestation of Jesus to Israel as their Messiah was completed with the gathering of all the Jewish nations under heaven at Pentecost. Therefore the kingdom message that began with the Baptist fulfilled it course with Peter (Acts 2:38). Jesus instructed the apostles to not go to the Gentiles (Mat 10:5) and the Pentecostal experience was strictly Jewish proving that God’s word must be fulfilled.

The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all Acts 10:36 (KJV)
That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; Acts 10:37 (KJV)
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. Acts 10:38 (KJV)
And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: Acts 10:39 (KJV)

Peter and John preached the same “word” of a baptism of repentance for remission of sins in a kingdom message to Israel and it was not to be delivered to Gentiles.

With the above understanding we turn to Paul who was separated unto the gospel (Roms 1:1) and sent to the Gentiles (Acts 9:15). Now if Paul is separated unto the gospel and sent to Gentiles it can not be with the same message that Jesus said was NOT to be delivered to Gentiles.

God’s word is again fulfilled concerning His messengers....

And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. Gal. 2:9 (KJV)

Paul was sent NOT to baptize! Is it any wonder why?

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Wasn't it the Jews that require a sign and the Greeks seek after wisdom?

Paul is telling us he no longer baptizes but was sent by Christ to preach the gospel of grace by faith. Why? Because he would make the cross of Christ of non effect. Paul is not concerned here with those that are saved but those that are not saved. His fear is that they would believe in water baptism unto salvation thus making Christ’s death for their sins of non effect.

All who deliver the gospel of the kingdom with it’s doctrine of water baptism to Gentiles are in direct disobedience to Christ Jesus.

In Christ
Craig

 

[Evangelion]

The fact that Paul wasn't specifically commissioned to baptise, is irrelevant. The bottom line is that he did it anyway.

Paul explains why baptism wasn't his forte - it's because he was the groundbreaker, spreading the good news. The brethren who followed after him (notably Apollos), consolidated the fledgling ecclesias which had sprung up in Paul's wake, ministered to the new converts, and baptised many new ones.

 

[c.moore]

Quote Kevin
But in v. 14, Paul says that though a person's work may be "burned up" and he "suffers loss," he himself will be saved. What does he mean? The following example will show the principle he is teaching:

Preachers have gone into Africa and planted the seed of God's word through preaching. In so doing, they have planted churches where they did not exist before; where Christians meet together to worship and help each other in carrying out God's will in their life over in that part of the world. Therefore, these preachers have performed a good "labor" or "work" there. Some of these churches continue on. But in certain places, Muslims have stormed in and murdered the Christians, destroyed their place of worship, and driven the rest from their homes and villages and scattered them abroad. Therefore, although the church does not meet at that particular place anymore because Muslims forcibly prevent the church from existing there, yet he who labored there in planting the word and getting the Lord's church started may suffered the loss of his work, but he himself will be saved, "yet so as through fire" (v. 15). What fire? The "fire" spoken of in v. 13 - "each one's work will become manifest; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it was."

And remember, in conjunction with the above thought, v. 8 says - "each one will receive his own reward ACCORDING TO HIS OWN LABOR." In other words, when the Day of Judgment comes and EVERYTHING is revealed, it will be shown that although those murdering Muslims took away the Lord's church at that locale, still, that preacher did his part - his labor or work - of obeying the Lord's command to use his talent of preaching the word - and his OBEDIENCE to the word of Christ will be what SAVES him! (This is what we've been pointing out all along, Heb. 5:9)


quote c.moore

what book did you get this from about the muslims????????


the bible says we are adopted into Christ family, and we are sons and daughters, I think that is greater than an preacher.

Hope can A group of muslim come against us when greater is that which is in us than he that is in the world.


Isa:54:17: No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

Where did you get this story about the preacher works????

ServantofChrist took verse out of context , and added his own story to it about muslims, don`t tell me you believe the story. I hope you know better.

 

[c.moore]

Hel kevin

1Co:3:1: And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

I would like to put this in a carnal interpretaion for you kevin so you might see the truth of the context of 1Cor3 praise God, and you might also see how servantof christ screwed the interpretaion up, and you went for the bait.


1Co:3:5: Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, butministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

this is saying that we as christians and spiritual follower and diciple of Christ are witnesses, and minister like Paul and Apollos.

1Co:3:6: I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

I hope you don`t try to fit this in you water baptism doctrine and belief that this is a water baptism verse because we have again watered in this verse and it means ,or is proof that Apollos baptized and God made a harvest of people to get baptized.
I just interpretated in a flip flop way, to show how we can turn scripture to be what we want it to be like your water baptismo belief. But let me go on with the truth, this means Paul prayed and believed and taught to Apollos to be a minister and take the Word of God to the people and God made the peole grow and be fruitful.
1Co:3:7: So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Again this is not water baptism, this is about God doing the final works, not works we can do .
We are just the tools and the one that uses us as His tool he get`s the honor. It`s like playing a guitar, the guitar is just a tool to make music, but the guitar player profits from playing the guitar,all the guitar has to do is just stay in tune, so almost is it by us and God.

1Co:3:8: Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

Look you see that this verse says every man and women including you and me ,it say not every preacher, or missinary like servantofchrist misinterpretate.

1Co:3:9: For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

Just that you don`t think some excuse that paul is talking to everybody or every human being in this chapter, he is speaking too those that are believers in Chrsit that are married to Jesus, and as long as we witness the good news we are builders for the kingdom of God according also to Ac:1:8: But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall .be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.be witnesses

1Co:3:10: According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let [/SIZevery man ] take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

this is that every christian is being a builder or witness for the church.

1Co:3:12: Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

Again we see any man not any preacher or missinary, thisa is meaning us christians.

1Co:3:13: Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

for the day is meaning the judgement day works will be tested for us christians. no where mention about a sepration of sheeps and goats.

1Co:3:14: If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

This is meaning us christians and followers of Christ not preachers only , notice the any person that is a believer which Christ is in them. The verse also says about a reward not damnation.

1Co:3:15: If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

this is the key to or judgement is that we will be judge for our rewards, but we as believers , with Christ living in us will be saved.

This is no way meaning pastors, preachers,or missionarys it means christians in general that are spiritual born again praise God.
When the verse didn`t have any man in it I could see servantofchrist point , but he missed the point completly and made his own theology over the scriptures .

Some people will enter into heaven but just with a white robe .
I would rather be a christian like God wants to be like those in Re:4:4: And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Re:7:9: After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

I know I will get attacked on this as only being a symbol or something,"but" this takes spiritual discernment to understand Kevin.
Let me stay on the carnal level, it make sence to the flesh.

1Co:3:1: And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

1Co:3:16: Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Here is proof that paul was talking t believers and God lives in us as his temple, and this is not only preachers and missionary that is attacked by muslims

M't:25:34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

How can we do works for something God already gave us even before the world was created to come into the kingdom of God??

No wounder the bible says we are choosen children not children working for salvation.

M't:25:46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

"But" who are the righteous Kevin that has eternal life??
Ro:3:10: As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Ro:3:11: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Ro:3:12: They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

but I do see we are ONLY righteous through Jesus without works but through believing ONLY biblically.

Ro:4:4: Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Ro:4:5: But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Ro:4:6: Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Ro:5:19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


Praise God!

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

quote c.moore

what book did you get this from about the muslims????????

ServantofChrist didn't get this from any book (that I know of). He used this as an example, or illustration of that the 1Cor passages are speaking of. It's like when you likened baptism to being the ring and believing to being married. "What book did you get that from?"

Where did you get this story about the preacher works????

Again, this is an example that he is using to try to illustrate the meaning of the 1Cor passages. Where did you get the story about the rocking chair and having the faith that it won't break when you sit in it (or something like that). More than once you have come up with examples to try to illustrate your point. This is all that ServantofChrist is trying to do here. Why can't you see that, when you do the same thing?

ServantofChrist took verse out of context

No, he didn't. He illustrated how one can have his works burned up and still be saved, but at the same time, this does NOT excuse us from obeying the commandments of God, of which one of them is baptism!

1Co:3:8: Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

Look you see that this verse says every man and women including you and me ,it say not every preacher, or missinary like servantofchrist misinterpretate.

ServantofChrist didn't limit the meaning of those passages to only those examples! Where did he say that it only applies to preachers and missionaries? They are examples, not a list of who this applies to!

If I say that Johnny went to the store and bought some soap, does this mean that only Johnny can buy soap, because that the only person I mentioned? NO! I just gave an example of somebody buying some soap!

1Co:3:13: Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

for the day is meaning the judgement day works will be tested for us christians.

There is a big difference between somebody doing His commandments and having them burned up, vs. someobdy who doesn't do God's commandments in the first place. This does NOT excuse us from having to do His commandments! All we can do is DO His commandments, and if those works are burned up, then it's not going to effect our salvation, because we have done them in the first place. If we don't do His commandments, we won't get to heaven (1 John 2:4).

no where mention about a sepration of sheeps and goats.

Are you suggesting that Matt. 25:31-32 is not referring to Judgement Day?

This is no way meaning pastors, preachers,or missionarys it means christians in general ...

Here is proof that paul was talking t believers and God lives in us as his temple, and this is not only preachers and missionary that is attacked by muslims

See above. You need to realize that examples are exactly what they are: examples, not a confined, rigid list! If I give the example that a Lamborghini can exceed 150 mph, does that mean that I'm saying that ONLY the Lamborghini can exceed this speed?!!? NO!

M't:25:34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

How can we do works for something God already gave us even before the world was created to come into the kingdom of God??

Hehehe... don't try to flip flop on me now, I've already gotten you to acknowledge that it was mans lack of works that sent them to hell. You just can't get around that.

M't:25:46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

For what reason(s) were these people sent into everlasting punishment?

but I do see we are ONLY righteous through Jesus without works but through believing ONLY biblically.

But what you DON'T see is that we are not righteous if we believe in Jesus, yet do not keep His commandments! (1 John 2:4)

 

[agape]

Originally posted by Evangelion
The fact that Paul wasn't specifically commissioned to baptise, is irrelevant. The bottom line is that he did it anyway.

I think you got this one backwards. The fact that he baptized only a few is irrevelant. The bottom line is that he was specifically commissioned to preach the good new of gospel of Christ which resulted in many being spirit baptized by Christ.

 

[Evangelion]

ROTFL. Nice try. HopeOfGlory had argued that baptism isn't necessary because Paul "was not sent to baptise."

I have since demonstrated that this is false.

 

[drbrumley]

Evangelion,

HopeOfGlory had argued that baptism isn't necessary because Paul "was not sent to baptise."

Yes!!!!!!!!!

I have since demonstrated that this is false

Oh really???? Where??? All I see is am opinion by you.

 

[HopeofGlory]

Baptized by one Spirit in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost!

Baptized by one Spirit in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost!

I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost (Spirit). Mark 1:8 (KJV)

Then there arose a question between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purifying. John 3:25 (KJV)

John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. John 3:27 (KJV)

Water baptism can profit a man nothing yet Spirit baptism gives birth to eternal life.

He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. John 3:31 (KJV)
And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. John 3:32 (KJV)

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5 (KJV)
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6 (KJV)
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:7 (KJV)


Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. John 3:11 (KJV)

If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? John 3:12 (KJV)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 (KJV)

Drink ye all of it; Matt. 26:27 (KJV)
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:54 (KJV)

When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? John 6:61 (KJV)

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life (eternal). John 6:63 (KJV)
But there are some of you that believe not. John 6:64 (KJV)

Jesus never command the apostles to water baptize!!! He commanded them to teach!!!!!
This command must be understood in the light of Mark 1:8 and the words Jesus spoke....
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Acts 1:5 (KJV)

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matt. 28:19 (KJV)
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matt. 28:20 (KJV)

To teach the "spirit" words of His shed blood!!! When he told the apostles....the words that I speak unto you, they are "spirit", and they are life. He was referring to...Whoso eateth my flesh, and """drinketh""" my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day (John 6:54). To be born again by the Spirit (See 2 Cor 3:17) is to believe the spirit words of Christ.

This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the "Spirit" that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 1 John 5:6 (KJV)
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and "these three are one". 1 John 5:7 (KJV)
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 1 John 5:8 (KJV)

The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are the three in heaven that bear witness by the Spirit in earth to men as to the death of Christ at the cross for remission when He shed His blood of the new testament. The three that bear witness in the earth are the Spirit (three are one), water, and the blood.

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. John 19:30 (KJV)
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. John 19:34 (KJV)
And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. John 19:35 (KJV)

So, when we believe the "spirit words of His cross" witness by the Father ,Son, and Holy Ghost to the inner man we are baptized by the Spirit. Thus believing the spirit words of Christ baptizes us by His Spirit, we clearly see...Go ye therefore, and teach (the words that are spirit) all nations, baptizing (by one Spirit (1 Cor 12:13) all them that believe (John 19:35) in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

For "by one (three are one) Spirit" are we ALL "baptized" into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to "drink (blood see John 6:54)" into one Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV)

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Heb. 1:1 (KJV)
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Heb. 1:2 (KJV)
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Heb. 1:3 (KJV)

Now the Lord is that Spirit (that we all are baptized by): and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty (free from the law of sin). 2 Cor. 3:17 (KJV)
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 2 Cor. 3:18 (KJV)

I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost (Spirit). Mark 1:8 (KJV)

In Christ
Craig

 

[Pilgrimagain]

has anyone really added anything new or unique tot his argumetn since say about page 3?

 

[Evangelion]

Yeah, me! I brought up the "blood of Christ shed for remission of sins" stuff, and a few other things. :up:

 

[Evangelion]

Hey, drbrumley - here's the skinny:

• I proved that Paul did indeed baptise. (Why would he do this if it wasn't necessary?)
  
• I have explained why Paul was not sent to baptise. (Indeed, he tells us himself!)
  
• Since the Dispy argument relies on the assumption that Paul did not believe it was necessary to baptise, and the false claim that he did not baptise, and since both arguments are refuted by Paul's own testimony...
  
• ...I have proved my point and disproved HopeOfGlory's.

Game over. Insert coin.

 

[Evangelion]

Important message for all Dispys.

Read this:

• 
  Acts 10:47-48. (NIV.)
  Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have."
  So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

We've got water, we've got the Holy Spirit, and we've got Peter insisting that these people should be baptised in water.

So much for "Acts 9 Dispy-ism"!

Hah!

 

[agape]

Originally posted by Evangelion
We've got water, we've got the Holy Spirit, and we've got Peter insisting that these people should be baptised in water.

Acts 1:5: For John truly baptized with water, BUT [CONTRAST] YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST NOT MANY DAYS HENCE.

You just can't get away from the truth, Evangelion. I see you totally ignore chapter 11...wonder why?

Acts 11:15-17:
And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

Then remembered I the WORD OF THE LORD, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; BUT ye shall be BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST.

Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; WHAT WAS I THAT I COULD WITHSTAND GOD?

And so, Evangelion, with that he went and "insisted" they be water baptized...Yeah right, lol...only in your dreams or should I say PI.

God's Word is a lot bigger than your "hah."

 

[Evangelion]

So... you won't comment on Acts 10? Can't tell me why Peter called for water, so that these people who had received the Holy Spirit, might be baptised with water? Can't explain why water baptism was still necessary, even after they'd received the Holy Spirit.

No surprises there...

 

[agape]

Originally posted by Evangelion
So... you won't comment on Acts 10?

That's all I've done...lol...where have you been?

Can't tell me why Peter called for water, so that these people who had received the Holy Spirit, might be baptised with water?

Again, I gave a whole big explanation on that. Where you been?

Can't explain why water baptism was still necessary, even after they'd received the Holy Spirit.

I explained why water baptism is NOT NECESSARY after the New Birth. HOWEVER, YOU ARE THE "ONE" WHO HAS YET TO PROVE WHY WATER BAPTISM "IS NECESSARY" AFTER BAPTISM WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT.

No surprises there...

 

[JustAChristian]

Another Speculative But Short Statement by Agape!

Another Speculative But Short Statement by Agape!

Originally posted by agape
I think you got this one backwards. The fact that he baptized only a few is irrevelant. The bottom line is that he was specifically commissioned to preach the good new of gospel of Christ which resulted in many being spirit baptized by Christ.

Agape,
You are speculating! You THINK that Christ will baptize believers with the Holy Spirit but you can't come up with a biblical basis for your belief. We have frantically tried to show you how faith and obedience brings salvation, but you are just "too hard headed" to listen to reason. Therefore, let the Bible talk to you...

Peter told the brethren at Jerusalem after returning from preaching at the house of Cornelius of the salvation of the family of believers saying "...and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith." (Acts 15:9).

In his general epistle to all the church Peter says of salvation saying..." Seeing ye have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth unto unfeigned love of the brethren, love one another from the heart fervently: having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth." (1 Peter 1:22-23).

1. On the one hand Peter says Cornelius and his family that believed were PURIFIED by faith...

2. On the other hand he telles the church in general they ... have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth ...

Do we have a conflict here in statements? Do we have a contridiction? No, because when one has faith in Christ, the faith culminates in complete obedience. There must be a doing of the things required of Christ. These are "works of righteousness". Only then is there purification of the soul. The Psalmist said...Who shall dwell in thy holy hill? He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, (Psalms 15:1-2a).

As a last admonition let me say: "...whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honorable, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things." (Phil. 4:8).

JustAChristian

 

[agape]

Re: Another Speculative But Short Statement by Agape!

Re: Another Speculative But Short Statement by Agape!

Originally posted by JustAChristian


Agape,
You are speculating!

No, I don't practice what you do.

You THINK that Christ will baptize believers with the Holy Spirit but you can't come up with a biblical basis for your belief.

I guess you can't read.

We have frantically tried to show you how faith and obedience brings salvation

Without any proof text whatsoever...only your erroneous PIs.

but you are just "too hard headed" to listen to reason.

I'm very hard-headed when it comes to standing on the truth and accuracy of God's Word and not to your five-sense reasonings.

Peter told the brethren at Jerusalem after returning from preaching at the house of Cornelius of the salvation of the family of believers saying "...and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith." (Acts 15:9).

Their hearts were cleansed by their baptism with the holy spirit.

In his general epistle to all the church Peter says of salvation saying..." Seeing ye have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth unto unfeigned love of the brethren, love one another from the heart fervently: having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth." (1 Peter 1:22-23).

They purified themselves by doing the truth with a view toward loving their brethren and one another from their hearts because they were begotten, born again of God's Spirit which is the incorruptible seed of God. They were able to do this because of the salvation they received when they believed in Christ and received the gift of holy spirit. At the time of the New Birth, the love of God was shed abroad in their hearts and they walked in this love toward one another.

On the one hand Peter says Cornelius and his family that believed were PURIFIED by faith...

2. On the other hand he telles the church in general they ... have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth ...

Do we have a conflict here in statements? Do we have a contridiction? No, because when one has faith in Christ, the faith culminates in complete obedience. There must be a doing of the things required of Christ. These are "works of righteousness". Only then is there purification of the soul. The Psalmist said...Who shall dwell in thy holy hill? He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, (Psalms 15:1-2a).

There goes the familiar "twisting of God's Word" again. After we are saved, born again and have received eternal life through our faith in Christ, we are to follow after the righteousness of God in us UNTO good works. Good works follow salvation...they do not get us salvation. Salvation comes through FAITH (ALONE...NO WORKS).

Therefore, let the Bible talk to you, JAC...

Ephesians 2:4-8:
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

And hath raised [past tense] [us] up together, and made [past tense] [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: [it is] the gift of God:

As a last admonition let me say: "...whatsoever things are TRUE....think on these things."