The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[agape]

Re: Re: Re: The Work Of the Holy Spirit Within The Gospel Of Christ.

Re: Re: Re: The Work Of the Holy Spirit Within The Gospel Of Christ.

JAC,

Your theory is ALL WET!

Jesus Christ's last words to his Apostles right before he ascended to his Father were:

Acts 1:5:
John truly baptized with water, BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST NOT MANY DAYS HENCE.

If Jesus spoke those words to you, JAC, what would you say? Yes, Lord or but, but, but...aren't we still suppose to get dunked in H2O??

If you did, I'm sure Jesus would have put on this face--->

And you say I'm hard-headed??

 

[agape]

Re: Acts 1:5 - Has no context to agape...

Re: Acts 1:5 - Has no context to agape...

Originally posted by Apollos
Hey agape -

When are you going to find the CONTEXT of Acts 1:5 ???

That promise was to the APOSTLES. (Looks that word "context" up in a good dictionary if you can find one!!) lol

Knock, knock on your brain...is anyone home?? I think you need to buy one of those bibles with the EXTRA LARGE BOLD PRINTS so you can read what's written in God's Word for the first time in your life.

The promise was only for the Apostles...LMFO!

The more you say Apollos the more you display a lack of knowledge when it comes knowing the truth of the Scriptures.

 

[Evangelion]

Why won't Agape tell us why these people were baptised with water, even after receiving the Holy Spirit?

 

[Apollos]

Still no context....and no truth!

Still no context....and no truth!

agape -

You give everyone the same answer to their challenges...

A big NON-answer! "I answered that!"


If it wasn't for that big-grin smiley face, you would not have anything to answer with at all. Your brand of heresy must have big teeth!

I am glad you think it is so cute. But it takes a unique talent like yours to print so much and say so little. In this case it is the same thing over and over and over.

Humph! Truth has more content than that - hope you find it someday!

 

[Apollos]

Craig –

Just to make it easy on you, I have compiled a list of the questions you did not answer for me. (Yes, I am sure you think you did, but do try again. A direct response is so much better!)

Did you find:

Where there was a baptism into the name of the F/Son/HS ??

Did you find where JOHN baptized into these ???

Did you show that JOHN’s baptism was into the name of the F/Son/HS ??

Did you ever find where Jesus told anyone to baptize into the HS ??

Did you find where any disciple baptized anyone into the HS ??

Did you ever figure out how one is “raised” in reference to HS baptism ???

Did you tell us what the baptism “into the name of the F/Son/& HS is - Matthew 28:18f. Hmmm? Can you do that?

Did you ever tell us whether repentance and REMISSION of sins would be preached “in His name” at Jerusalem FIRST??

Did the APOSTLES receive HS baptism ???
Was this on Pentecost in Acts 2 ???
Then tell us – were the APOSTLES in the BODY ??????

WHY Paul continued to WATER baptize throughout his life??

What MUST man do (if anything) to appropriate salvation from God ???

Answer Craig - we need answers!!!

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Kevin
c.moore,



I wish we did agree, but we don't. I adamantly believe that keeping Christ's commandments is necessary for salvation. You do not share this belief, otherwise you couldn't possibly be in the faith "ONLY" saves crowd. We cannot keep Jesus's commandments without doing works. When one obey Christ's commandments, they are DOING something - WORKS.



Well of course Jesus knows how to do all that. But we are the ones who are commanded to keep His commandments, not Jesus. If if was Jesus who kept our commandments for us, then we could never lose our salvation, because He is perfect and would never fail to keep His commandments. The truth is, there are Biblically recorded instances of people who were in Christ that stopped keeping His commandements and were in clear danger of eternal punishment. We are the ones who keep His commandments, not Jesus.



I can go to God in prayer and ask Him to strengthen me, so that I'm less likely to stray, but God isn't going to "do" His own commandments for me. Again, if God kept his own commandments, it would be impossible to ever lose salvation, but we both know better than that.



As I've said before, we can pray to God for strength and more faith, so that we can live the life of the straight and narrow, but God is not going to live the life of the straight and narrow for us.

As to why I do His commandments, I've already told you why: It's both fear and love.



See above.

I really now understand your belief , and is exactly what I was looking for the difference in why you alway point out works and keeping commandmént.

You even said one thing that even explain why we can depend of jesus alone , and always save doctrine.

you said:If if was Jesus who kept our commandments for us, then we could never lose our salvation, because He is perfect and would never fail to keep His commandments.

This is our belief in the above , that jesus did the perfect works for us. AMEN:up:

You obey and do commandments becaúse of fear and love and you do commandments on your own.

We do obey and works because the Love of God is in us and Jesus is in us.

thank God i have another gospel than you mention.

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

you said:If if was Jesus who kept our commandments for us, then we could never lose our salvation, because He is perfect and would never fail to keep His commandments.

This is our belief in the above , that jesus did the perfect works for us. AMEN

You just don't seem to understand. Just because Jesus was obedient to the point of death and sacrificed Himself for us doesn't mean that Jesus doesn't expect us to obey His commandments! That's insane! Observe:

John 15:10
10) If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

Was Jesus talking to Himself, or man? MAN. Therefore MAN is to keep the commandments, not Christ! Do you think Christ wasn't serious or something? He expects OUR obedience.

John 14:15
15) If you love Me, keep My commandments.

Is Jesus speaking to Himself? NO. Therefore He is not going to keep His commandments for us. He's telling somebody else to keep His commandments - MAN!

1 John 2:3-6
3) Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4) He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Who is supposed to keep His commandments? Man or Christ?

thank God i have another gospel than you mention.

Ditto!

P.S. - I noticed you never answered my question (again) on whether or not Matt 25:31-32 is referring to Judgement Day. Your silence speaks volumes. Your doctrine just doesn't stand up to the word of God.

 

[JustAChristian]

Re: Re: Re: Re: The Work Of the Holy Spirit Within The Gospel Of Christ.

Re: Re: Re: Re: The Work Of the Holy Spirit Within The Gospel Of Christ.

Originally posted by agape
JAC,

Your theory is ALL WET!

Jesus Christ's last words to his Apostles right before he ascended to his Father were:

Acts 1:5:
John truly baptized with water, BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST NOT MANY DAYS HENCE.

If Jesus spoke those words to you, JAC, what would you say? Yes, Lord or but, but, but...aren't we still suppose to get dunked in H2O??

If you did, I'm sure Jesus would have put on this face--->

And you say I'm hard-headed??

Agape,

Acts 1:5:
John truly baptized with water, BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST NOT MANY DAYS HENCE.

If Jesus spoke those words to you, JAC, what would you say?

First of all you need to understand the "ye" in Acts 1:5. It is not spoken to the believer nor the church but exclusively to the apostles. Because of this, I would never receive this statement from Jesus. I was told to believe and be baptized for the remission of sins (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38) and that is what I did. I want have the word of God judging me on that point...

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my sayings, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I spake, the same shall judge him in the last day.

You have to admit that Jesus told the apostles to go into all the world and baptize believers in immersion or deny the words of Christ. If you deny the words of Christ they will judge you guilty in the last day of judgement. Peter preached the baptism that washes away sins. Paul obeyed the baptism that washed away his sins. It is not possible to obey being Holy Spirit baptized, so immersion in water for the remission of sins is the baptism to obey. Your faith coupled with your obedience will cause your sins to be forgiven and your soul to be purified. I have plainly shown you this. You need to deny yourself and take up the cross of Christ and quit listening to John Rice and his Murfreesboro, TN publication.

JustAChristian

 

[HopeofGlory]

Apollos,

The “great commission” is found in Matthew 28:18f. This is the book of the Bible that comes BEFORE Luke, but AFTER Malachi. It is the FIRST book in what is called the New Testament. Jesus told His disciples to go/teach/baptize/ and observe. It is still great even if you can’t find it.

Is this a debate on what the scripture says or what you want it to say!
Again the “great commission” is not found in the bible. Jesus did not say you apostles go baptize. He said go teach, baptizing them. Your ranting will not change the truth of God into a lie.

It is understood from other passages that they were baptizing “in the name” of Jesus which is the baptism given in Matthew 28 – which is IN WATER!! I see no examples in the NT of people being “baptized” with the word – I fail to see how they can “immerse” people in the word, but such are the “strains” of false doctrine.

Apollos, your reasoning is not God’s truth and the two are as far apart as the east is from the west. You have not provided a proof text for anybody being water baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost and you never will. Simply because you “fail to see” does not mean all should walk in darkness. False doctrine is the result of not seeing and thus many will fall into the ditch of unbelief.

Jesus told the disciples to BAPTIZE people everywhere into the name of the F/Son/HS. This is a WATER baptism –AND- this is called “baptism in the name of Jesus”.

You have added nothing to this debate but your words. In all honesty your words are worth nothing unless it can be proven with scripture.

When any single disciple may have fully understood the import of Jesus’ statement that this water baptism was for ALL NATIONS does not change the import of what Jesus was saying. This water baptism was for ALL people !!!

The word of God proves Peter at Pentecost did not understand what Jesus instructed! Your agreeing with this is a step in the right direction.

quote:

He told the house hold of Cornelius... it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation... Acts 10:28

Why do you want to exercise this “tunnel vision” Craig? Peter also said – “34 Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 but in every nation he that fears Him, and works righteousness, is acceptable to Him.” ASV Why did you choose to stop in the past? Update yourself!!

Have you ever heard of a proselyte? Peter’s kingdom message was by works of righteousness before receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost (Acts 5:32) but the gospel of grace is not by works of righteousness. God interrupted Peter’s command and gave the gift of the Holy Ghost to the Gentile Cornelius without the righteous work of water baptism.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5 (KJV)
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; Titus 3:6 (KJV)
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7 (KJV)

quote:

But I have greater witness than that of John…

And so, the BAPTISM given by JESUS CHRIST is greater than the baptism of John !!! If not, WHY NOT??

It is past time for some answers Craig!!

The baptism given by Jesus is not in water. Will you ever learn to listen?


I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Mark 1:8 (KJV)

Your argument is old hat and not hardly worth a response.


In Christ
Craig

 

[Evangelion]

So why did Peter call for water, so that Cornelius and his household could be baptised?

 

[AVmetro]

Serious question.....

Serious question.....

If two men, one a Christian and the other an atheist, are flying a plane over a desert, and the Christian ends up converting the atheist during the flight, but the plane crash lands into the dry desert where there is no water. Will the atheist go to sheol *for argument sake* because he was not baptized?? ......How does that work?

God bless,
AV

 

[Kevin]

How many excuses will man make...?

How many excuses will man make...?

AVmetro,

Why stop there? What about the "a person believes in Jesus and is on their death bed and dies before baptism" excuse? Or "the person believed and was about to be baptized, but they dropped dead of a heart attack" excuse?

The truth is, these are all petty excuses (keep reading) for the vast, VAST majority of people that are fully capable of being baptized. You are not the first to come up with these rare and unlikely "what if" senarios to try to disproves baptism's necessity, and unfortunately, I'm sure you won't be the last.

How will God judge those people? Who knows... that's up to God. Perhaps He will consider that they had it in their heart to obey the gospel and save them. Then again, maybe He won't. I'm not going to pretend to know the answer to that question.

What matters is that we will all personally give an account to God on Judgement Day. I'm going to be able to stand before God knowing that I've obey his blessed command to be baptized for the remission of my sins, and that because of that, I was reborn in Christ.

Then there's the other person. He will have to stand before God knowing that the only defense he's got for not being baptized is because somebody on earth told him about a "what if" senario that didn't even apply to him (this person, as most, are perfectly capable of baptism). That's his defense for not obeying Christ's command to be baptized: a flimsy excuse that doesn't even apply to him. I wouldn't want to be in that person's shoes.

The bottom line is, none of these "what if" senarios will change the fact that we are expected to obey Christ's commandments... one of which is baptism! If a person has something that hinders him/her from actaully being baptized, then that's between them and God... but that is NO excuse for the VAST majority of people that are perfectly capable of being baptized.

 

[AVmetro]

Kevin

Kevin

How many excuses will man make...?
AVmetro,

Why stop there? What about the "a person believes in Jesus and is on their death bed and dies before baptism" excuse? Or "the person believed and was about to be baptized, but they dropped dead of a heart attack" excuse?

The truth is, these are all petty excuses (keep reading) for the vast, VAST majority of people that are fully capable of being baptized. You are not the first to come up with these rare and unlikely "what if" senarios to try to disproves baptism's necessity, and unfortunately, I'm sure you won't be the last.

How will God judge those people? Who knows... that's up to God. Perhaps He will consider that they had it in their heart to obey the gospel and save them. Then again, maybe He won't. I'm not going to pretend to know the answer to that question.

What matters is that we will all personally give an account to God on Judgement Day. I'm going to be able to stand before God knowing that I've obey his blessed command to be baptized for the remission of my sins, and that because of that, I was reborn in Christ.

Then there's the other person. He will have to stand before God knowing that the only defense he's got for not being baptized is because somebody on earth told him about a "what if" senario that didn't even apply to him (this person, as most, are perfectly capable of baptism). That's his defense for not obeying Christ's command to be baptized: a flimsy excuse that doesn't even apply to him. I wouldn't want to be in that person's shoes.

The bottom line is, none of these "what if" senarios will change the fact that we are expected to obey Christ's commandments... one of which is baptism! If a person has something that hinders him/her from actaully being baptized, then that's between them and God... but that is NO excuse for the VAST majority of people that are perfectly capable of being baptized.

You seem to assume that my post was directed as an attack of sorts on salvation by baptism. It wasn't.

This however....

The bottom line is, none of these "what if" senarios will change the fact that we are expected to obey Christ's commandments... one of which is baptism! If a person has something that hinders him/her from actaully being baptized, then that's between them and God...

......I could agree with. Just wanted to make sure we weren't talking about the "Catholic" version whereas "no baptism, too bad".....


God bless,
AV

 

[Evangelion]

AV -

If two men, one a Christian and the other an atheist, are flying a plane over a desert, and the Christian ends up converting the atheist during the flight, but the plane crash lands into the dry desert where there is no water. Will the atheist go to sheol *for argument sake* because he was not baptized??

No.

......How does that work?

Thief on the cross.

In His mercy, God makes allowances for exceptional circumstances.

 

[AVmetro]

Ev...

Ev...

I like that answer...

Good way to refute "infant baptism" as well...

God bless,
Jeremiah

 

[c.moore]

hello Kevin

I think I have to clear up something here about you belief.

Do you believe that Jesus can live in us??

Do you know our flesh is only a house bt it is not realy us, the real you and me is spiritual do you know that ?

When Jesus is speaking to us with His word is he speaking to our flesh or our spirit????

1Th:5:23: And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul nd body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Let God bless you

 

[AVmetro]

Cmoore

Cmoore

Do you believe that Jesus can live in us??

Do you know our flesh is only a house bt it is not realy us, the real you and me is spiritual do you know that ?

When Jesus is speaking to us with His word is he speaking to our flesh or our spirit????

1Th:5:23: And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul nd body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Let God bless you

Amen to that! :up:....

God bless you Cmoore,
Jeremiah

*Send me an email ...*

 

[c.moore]

Quote kevin
I noticed you never answered my question (again) on whether or not Matt 25:31-32 is referring to Judgement Day. Your silence speaks volumes. Your doctrine just doesn't stand up to the word of God.

This is the end of the earth and the coming of Jesus, the last days.
I know there wil be also the rapture and Jesus will come and get us out of here before the tribulation, so check that out for yourself if this is maybe not the judement day , but just Jesus coming to get His children before the final tribulation comes.
I hope this answers your question.

peace

 

[Kevin]

AVmetro,

You seem to assume that my post was directed as an attack of sorts on salvation by baptism. It wasn't.

Hmmm... sorry if I misunderstood you... although it's hard for me not to see it as an attack because it looks like the same tactic used by others on this very thread to try and disprove baptism's necessity. I just get frustrated with it because I see it as an attempt to turn excuses into doctrine. Some people will attempt to justify not getting baptized based upon the rare "what if" scenarios that don't even apply to them. That just annoys me.

Just wanted to make sure we weren't talking about the "Catholic" version whereas "no baptism, too bad".....

Well, I'm not Catholic, but I do adamantly believe that baptism is necessary for salvation. I believe that anybody who is able (the vast majority) must do it before they can become born again, free of sin and in Christ. If they have not been freed from sin and alive in Christ through baptism, they won't make it to heaven. He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mark 16:16). It's just part of obeying the gospel.

 

[agape]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Work Of the Holy Spirit Within The Gospel Of Christ.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Work Of the Holy Spirit Within The Gospel Of Christ.

Originally posted by JustAChristian
Agape,

First of all you need to understand the "ye" in Acts 1:5. It is not spoken to the believer nor the church but exclusively to the apostles.

Oh brother! JAC...are you that blind? "YE" is spoken to all believers. The apostles "initiated" the act, but it is available to all who BELEIVE! Sheesh...it's written throughout all the Epistles. You're problem is you live in the Old Covenant and not the NEW COVENANT.

Matthew 3:11:
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

Was John saying this exclusively to the Apostles?? Absolutely not. He was speaking to Israel, the believers who were at that time being baptized with water. "HE SHALL BAPTIZE YOU WITH THE HOLY GHOST AND WITH FIRE."

Can God's Word make it more plain? You are being spiritually blinded to think that water baptism is still necessary for salvation or whatever else you think it's good for.

Because of this, I would never receive this statement from Jesus.

It was only a hyperthetical question.

I was told to believe and be baptized for the remission of sins (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38) and that is what I did. I want have the word of God judging me on that point...

If you did what you were told to do according to Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38, guess what? You were baptized with the holy spirit. Ironic...isn't it? You received the promise from the Father, you freely received the GIFT OF HOLY SPIRIT! You are saved and born again and you have eternal life spirit dwelling in you! Praise God!

You believed Jesus Christ died for your sins and you believe that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead you instantaneously received the gift of holy spirit. So whether you agree or not, you are already saved, born again and have eternal life. So have fun dipping in and out of water...doesn't matter...you are already saved. Isn't God GOOD? I'll say.

Now let me

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my sayings, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I spake, the same shall judge him in the last day.

He that REJECTS CHRIST will be judged in the last days. Are you saying that if one is not water baptized he/she has "rejected Christ?" and will be judged in the last days?? Still twisting God's Word around and lying about the Truth.

John 12:46-48:
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

These verses make no mention of water baptism. He said "whosoever BELIEVETH on him should not abide in darkness.

Is Jesus even preaching "water baptism" here? NO. He is saying all those who "reject" him....don't BELEIVE IN HIM, not water will be judged by God in the last day.

Talking about hearing his words, besides to believe in Him, he did say "BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST.

You have to admit that Jesus told the apostles to go into all the world and baptize believers in immersion or deny the words of Christ.

No, All I have to admit is that Jesus said to go into the world and preach the gospel of the the good news of salvation so they can be baptized with the holy spirit. "John truly baptized with water, BUT YE (ALL BELIEVERS) SHALL BE BAPTIZED WTIH THE HOLY SPIRIT. HE NEVER SAID IMMERSION OR WATER BAPTISM!!!John also stated the same thing. Being baptized with the holy spirit was not a "new thing." This was told to them before the day of Pentecost. They just did not understand the fullness of the new birth till later.

If you deny the words of Christ they will judge you guilty in the last day of judgement.

Obviously I don't deny the words of Christ because I am baptized with the holy spirit as Jesus Christ preached. I believe that Jesus Christ is MY SAVIOR FROM SIN and that God raised him from the dead. I now have God's spirit in me and I do speak with tongues, which is proof enough. So don't go preaching judgment to me or anyone else for that matter.

Peter preached the baptism that washes away sins. Paul obeyed the baptism that washed away his sins. It is not possible to obey being Holy Spirit baptized, so immersion in water for the remission of sins is the baptism to obey.

Sheesh...you really need to sit down and take a real hard long look at the Scriptures. The only baptism that thoroughly and throughly washes away sin and gives us a new nature which is "sinless" is spirit baptism. Peter and Paul did NOT PREACH water baptism at all. Just the opposite. They knew the words of Christ. "...But YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST..." They understood exactly what Jesus Christ meant. Immersion in water does not cleanse one on the inside. saves no one. Immerision IN CHRIST which can only come from SPIRIT BAPTISM saves everyone who believes in him. Ye must be born again of the Spirit to enter into the Kingdom of God. Was this too only for the Apostles? Certainly not!

Your faith coupled with your obedience will cause your sins to be forgiven and your soul to be purified.

Wrong. My faith in Christ as my Lord and Savior has given me remission of sins. I have already been made the righteousness of God in Christ in me. Already having been saved and born of incorruptible seed, coupled with "UNTO GOOD WORKS" is what brings me and others blessings and fruit now and rewards in the future when Christ returns for his Church. Wake up JAC

I have plainly shown you this.

So far, you have only plainly shown me your PI and a very poor handling of the Scriptures.

You need to deny yourself and take up the cross of Christ and quit listening to John Rice and his Murfreesboro, TN publication.

LOL...First of all I haven't a clue who John Rice is...I listen only to God's Word, and secondly, the only thing I need to do is to walk in the newness of life I have in Christ Jesus and to hold forth the Word of Life to others.