so who do you think it is?
and
how can you identify the one
without
identifying the others?
the four horsemen
- Thread starter chrysostom
- Start date
so who do you think it is?
and
how can you identify the one
without
identifying the others?
CherubRam
New member
It's Michael. Michael comes first, then the Two Witnesses, then the man who Christ appoints as a Morning Star.
What is the basis for claiming that the four empires of Daniel 7 are the same as those of Daniel 2? Why would Daniel repeat the prophecy of Daniel 2 in Daniel 7? What tradition of men would not be consistent with the Daniel 7: 4-7 beast empires being after the Cross and not before it? John Gill interprets the four beast kingdoms in Daniel 7 as the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Greek, and Roman empires. Gill does not explain why the Daniel 7 beast empires as the same as those of Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Daniel 2. Gill just says "Daniel had a dream: as Nebuchadnezzar before had, concerning the same things, the four monarchies of the world, and the kingdom of Christ, only represented in a different manner: or, "saw a dream"F26; in his dream he had a vision, and objects were presented to his fancy as if he really saw them, as follows: "
"Jerome identified the four kingdoms analogously with the interpretation of the prophecy of Daniel 2, in a diachronic system. In the first kingdom, symbolized by the lion, he saw the Neo-Babylonian empire. He identified the bear with the Persian kingdom, the leopard with the Macedonian rule, and the fourth beast with the Roman empire.", Fröhlich, "Time and times and half a time: Historical Consciousness in the Jewish Literature of the Persian and Hellenistic Eras', JSP Supplements, pp. 71-72 (1996)."
Before I get to the role of Revelation 13: 2 in the determination of whether the four beast empires in Daniel 7 are before the Cross or after the Cross, I want to say that an Internet search turns up sites which say that the empires of Daniel 7 are after the Cross.
See: http://watch.pair.com/brit-empire.html
"Daniel 2:32-42 describes the Babylonian, Persian, Greek and Roman empires. Daniel 2:38 states that the head of gold of Nebuchadnezzar's image was the existing Babylonian Empire. "O king...Thou art this head of gold."
In Daniel 7, all of the world empires portrayed by symbolic beasts are future empires - from Daniel's perspective. According to verse 17: "These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth."
Whereas Daniel 2 identifies one existing (the Babylonian) and three future empires, Daniel 7:3-6 must refer to four future world empires:
"And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse from one another. The first was like a LION, and had EAGLE'S wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made to stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it. And behold another beast, a second, like to a BEAR, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. After this I beheld, and lo another, like a LEOPARD, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it."
"Nazi Germany was known for its Panzer (Panther or Leopard) divisions in World War II, and the symbol of Communist Russia is the Bear which has "devoured much flesh." The Royal Arms of England displays the Unicorn and Rampant Lion, which is "made to stand upon the feet as a man."
Three of the four beast empires of Daniel 7 are found as the composite beast of Revelation 13:1,2 which John saw rising out of the sea. This is Revelation 13: 1-2 "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority."
In Daniel 7: 4-6 the sequence of beast empires is the lion, the bear and the leopard. Revelation 13: 2 in describing the first beast as a composite of the first three beasts of Daniel 7: 4-6 is focusing on the fourth beast of Daniel 7: 7 the beast said to be dreadful and terrible and strong exceedingly. Revelation 13: 2 is showing that the first beast is a composite one made up of the traits of the three earlier beast empires.
Only within the historicist interpretation of the Book of Revelation could the fourth dreadful and terrible beast as Rome, the fourth empire of Daniel 2, be said to have the traits of the three earlier empires, the lion as Babylon, the bear as Persia and the leopard as Greece.
But if the Book of Revelation at the time it was written is a prophecy for the future, then the revealing that the first beast of Revelation 13 has the traits of the three previous empires after the Cross, which are the British, Russian Communist and German Nazi fascist empires puts the Lion, Bear and Leopard empires in the timeline after the Cross. In the futurist interpretation of Revelation 13, the revelation that the first three beast empires in Daniel 7 are part of the first beast shows that in the Book of Revelation Daniel's four beast empires are after the Cross of Christ, not before it.
The fourth beast of Daniel 7: 7, dreadful and terrible, is to exist after the Cross as the first beast of Revelation 13, though Revelation 13: 3 says one head of this beast that was wounded to death had its deadly wound healed, meaning that, again, the first beast is a composite. It is true that there are some parallel traits between this post-Cross empire described in Revelation 13: 1-2 and Rome. But this does not mean that the fourth beast of Daniel 7: 7 is Rome. There are also some ways in which the post-Cross bear empire as the old Soviet Union is like the Persian empire and some similarities can be found between Hitler's Nazi empire and that of Alexander the Great's Greek empire. The British empire has a few traits in common to the Babylonian empire.
"Jerome identified the four kingdoms analogously with the interpretation of the prophecy of Daniel 2, in a diachronic system. In the first kingdom, symbolized by the lion, he saw the Neo-Babylonian empire. He identified the bear with the Persian kingdom, the leopard with the Macedonian rule, and the fourth beast with the Roman empire.", Fröhlich, "Time and times and half a time: Historical Consciousness in the Jewish Literature of the Persian and Hellenistic Eras', JSP Supplements, pp. 71-72 (1996)."
Before I get to the role of Revelation 13: 2 in the determination of whether the four beast empires in Daniel 7 are before the Cross or after the Cross, I want to say that an Internet search turns up sites which say that the empires of Daniel 7 are after the Cross.
See: http://watch.pair.com/brit-empire.html
"Daniel 2:32-42 describes the Babylonian, Persian, Greek and Roman empires. Daniel 2:38 states that the head of gold of Nebuchadnezzar's image was the existing Babylonian Empire. "O king...Thou art this head of gold."
In Daniel 7, all of the world empires portrayed by symbolic beasts are future empires - from Daniel's perspective. According to verse 17: "These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth."
Whereas Daniel 2 identifies one existing (the Babylonian) and three future empires, Daniel 7:3-6 must refer to four future world empires:
"And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse from one another. The first was like a LION, and had EAGLE'S wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made to stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it. And behold another beast, a second, like to a BEAR, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. After this I beheld, and lo another, like a LEOPARD, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it."
"Nazi Germany was known for its Panzer (Panther or Leopard) divisions in World War II, and the symbol of Communist Russia is the Bear which has "devoured much flesh." The Royal Arms of England displays the Unicorn and Rampant Lion, which is "made to stand upon the feet as a man."
Three of the four beast empires of Daniel 7 are found as the composite beast of Revelation 13:1,2 which John saw rising out of the sea. This is Revelation 13: 1-2 "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority."
In Daniel 7: 4-6 the sequence of beast empires is the lion, the bear and the leopard. Revelation 13: 2 in describing the first beast as a composite of the first three beasts of Daniel 7: 4-6 is focusing on the fourth beast of Daniel 7: 7 the beast said to be dreadful and terrible and strong exceedingly. Revelation 13: 2 is showing that the first beast is a composite one made up of the traits of the three earlier beast empires.
Only within the historicist interpretation of the Book of Revelation could the fourth dreadful and terrible beast as Rome, the fourth empire of Daniel 2, be said to have the traits of the three earlier empires, the lion as Babylon, the bear as Persia and the leopard as Greece.
But if the Book of Revelation at the time it was written is a prophecy for the future, then the revealing that the first beast of Revelation 13 has the traits of the three previous empires after the Cross, which are the British, Russian Communist and German Nazi fascist empires puts the Lion, Bear and Leopard empires in the timeline after the Cross. In the futurist interpretation of Revelation 13, the revelation that the first three beast empires in Daniel 7 are part of the first beast shows that in the Book of Revelation Daniel's four beast empires are after the Cross of Christ, not before it.
The fourth beast of Daniel 7: 7, dreadful and terrible, is to exist after the Cross as the first beast of Revelation 13, though Revelation 13: 3 says one head of this beast that was wounded to death had its deadly wound healed, meaning that, again, the first beast is a composite. It is true that there are some parallel traits between this post-Cross empire described in Revelation 13: 1-2 and Rome. But this does not mean that the fourth beast of Daniel 7: 7 is Rome. There are also some ways in which the post-Cross bear empire as the old Soviet Union is like the Persian empire and some similarities can be found between Hitler's Nazi empire and that of Alexander the Great's Greek empire. The British empire has a few traits in common to the Babylonian empire.
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just search the bible for ten horns
and
you will see the fourth beast of daniel
and
the second beast of the apocalypse
both
have ten horns
and
yes there is more
I have identified the ten horns as the ten dynasties of islam
and
I have identified the seven heads as the seven dynasties of the roman empire
CherubRam
New member
CherubRam
New member
Your link is worthless. Besides that, I am not aware of Islam putting an end to Christianity.
history shows that in 1453
the thousand year christian empire, the byzantine empire, ended
and
it was the ottoman empire, an islamic empire, that ended it
would you like some links with that?
CherubRam
New member
Does a corner of the world count as the whole world? So the people in that region changed from Pagan polytheism to Pagan monotheism. Allah has always been a Pagan god.
The four horses and riders of Revelation 6: 2-8 represent military powers which conquer, with the implication being that the four horses and riders also control and oppress people, to cause them suffering. The fourth horse and rider, the pale horse, is said to have Death as its rider and Hell follows after. It may bring the most oppression and suffering. A progression in the oppression of people in the unfolding over time of the four horses and riders can be seen.
Revelation 6: 2: "he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."
Revelation 6: 4: "and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword."
Revelation 6: 5-6: "And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand...... A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine."
Revelation 6: 8: "behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."
The quoted text above for the black horse sounds like poverty and famine, which is an outcome of war, control and oppression by military power.
What the four horses and riders of Revelation 6: 2-8 have in common is military force, killing of people, and conquering with the implication also of control over people, oppression and suffering. This points to governments or empires of man, not to individual men, and not to the supposed one man anti-Christ figure. So, the prophecies in Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 on four empires before the Cross and four empires after the Cross would fit the character of the four horses and riders.
Revelation 6: 2: "he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."
Revelation 6: 4: "and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword."
Revelation 6: 5-6: "And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand...... A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine."
Revelation 6: 8: "behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."
The quoted text above for the black horse sounds like poverty and famine, which is an outcome of war, control and oppression by military power.
What the four horses and riders of Revelation 6: 2-8 have in common is military force, killing of people, and conquering with the implication also of control over people, oppression and suffering. This points to governments or empires of man, not to individual men, and not to the supposed one man anti-Christ figure. So, the prophecies in Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 on four empires before the Cross and four empires after the Cross would fit the character of the four horses and riders.
iamaberean
New member
Isa 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
We, Christians, are the children of Israel.
Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
We are the church.
We live in the world without end today!
CherubRam
New member
Revelation 6:4. And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
the church is not the kingdom
and
the kingdom is not the thousand years
and
Christ did not reign
The Islamic religion denies that Christ fully as God appeared in man's flesh. But the Islamic religion does not diminish or threaten to diminish the spiritual life given by Christ as does the teaching within Christianity that the Old Covenant was somehow not done away with (Hebrews 10: 9), and that Old Covenant Israel remains now a people of God alongside the church, a translation of ekklesia. Ekklesia means a meeting, assembly or congregation.
John Darby said that the "Church has sought to settle itself here, but it has no place on the earth... [Though] making a most constructive parenthesis, it forms no part of the regular order of God's earthly plans, but is merely an
interruption of them to give a fuller character and meaning to
them..."
John. N. Darby, 'The Character of Office in The Present Dispensation'
Collected Writings., Eccl. I, Vol. I, p. 94.
"Them" are all physical Israel. The church, for Darby, exists to "give
fuller character and meaning to all physical Israel."
"Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne so that in eternity, '...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet." Lewis S. Chafer, Systematic Theology (Dallas, Dallas Seminary Press, 1975), Vol. 4. pp. 315-323......Chafer was an early American dispensationalist who followed C.I. Scofield and Chafer founded Dallas Theological Seminary.
Charles C. Ryrie (born 1925) says:
"basic promise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God expressed
in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction
throughout eternity." Charles C. Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today,1966, pp.44-45.
"Israel" in dispensationalism always means Old Covenant Israel and can mean no other Israel.
Islamic religion as ISIS does threaten the physical life of Christians, but Islam has not falsely been made into a people of God within Christianity, and so Christians are not deceived into following Islam as many Christians have been in following the multitude of Old Covenant Israel which rejected Christ and became anti-Christ, having the spirit of anti-Christ. A remnant of Old Covenant Israel accepted Christ while the multitude of Old Covenant Israel became anti-Christ which continues in Talmudic Judaism.
John Darby said that the "Church has sought to settle itself here, but it has no place on the earth... [Though] making a most constructive parenthesis, it forms no part of the regular order of God's earthly plans, but is merely an
interruption of them to give a fuller character and meaning to
them..."
John. N. Darby, 'The Character of Office in The Present Dispensation'
Collected Writings., Eccl. I, Vol. I, p. 94.
"Them" are all physical Israel. The church, for Darby, exists to "give
fuller character and meaning to all physical Israel."
"Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne so that in eternity, '...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet." Lewis S. Chafer, Systematic Theology (Dallas, Dallas Seminary Press, 1975), Vol. 4. pp. 315-323......Chafer was an early American dispensationalist who followed C.I. Scofield and Chafer founded Dallas Theological Seminary.
Charles C. Ryrie (born 1925) says:
"basic promise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God expressed
in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction
throughout eternity." Charles C. Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today,1966, pp.44-45.
"Israel" in dispensationalism always means Old Covenant Israel and can mean no other Israel.
Islamic religion as ISIS does threaten the physical life of Christians, but Islam has not falsely been made into a people of God within Christianity, and so Christians are not deceived into following Islam as many Christians have been in following the multitude of Old Covenant Israel which rejected Christ and became anti-Christ, having the spirit of anti-Christ. A remnant of Old Covenant Israel accepted Christ while the multitude of Old Covenant Israel became anti-Christ which continues in Talmudic Judaism.
Islamic religion as ISIS does threaten the physical life of Christians, but Islam has not falsely been made into a people of God within Christianity, and so Christians are not deceived into following Islam as many Christians have been in following the multitude of Old Covenant Israel which rejected Christ and became anti-Christ, having the spirit of anti-Christ. A remnant of Old Covenant Israel accepted Christ while the multitude of Old Covenant Israel became anti-Christ which continues in Talmudic Judaism.
Emphasis upon Islam as having the spirit of anti-Christ can be a defense against
seeing the multitude of Old Covenant Israel - which became Talmudic Judaism - as having the spirit of anti-Christ (I John 4: 3). That is, if we are made to look on Islam as having the spirit of anti-Christ, we might be less likely to see the majority of Old Covenant Israel as having that spirit of anti-Christ.
And - at the more political level of thinking - the rise of ISIS sets up a dialectic, or perceived opposition, between the traditional Christian nations and Islamic militant ISIS, which makes it more likely that the people of the traditional Christian nations will accept more control over them by the elites. And those elites of the traditional Christian nations are anti-Christian.
It is true that this dialectic set up as the opposition between the Christian nations and Islamic ISIS brings many to focus upon things of the flesh - preparing in the flesh to fight ISIS - and makes so called Christians less likely to realize what Paul was talking about in Colossians 1: 27, "Christ in you, the hope of glory." In this way the ISIS dialectic does threaten to diminish Christian spirituality, which has already been diminished by other means in the Capital C Churches.
"There is a remnant Body of Christ out there. God knows. Everything that can be shaken is being shaken. Will you stand in this evil day? " That hope of glory, Christ in you, is what enables you to stand in the evil day which is arriving.
Emphasis upon Islam as having the spirit of anti-Christ can be a defense against
seeing the multitude of Old Covenant Israel - which became Talmudic Judaism - as having the spirit of anti-Christ (I John 4: 3). That is, if we are made to look on Islam as having the spirit of anti-Christ, we might be less likely to see the majority of Old Covenant Israel as having that spirit of anti-Christ.
And - at the more political level of thinking - the rise of ISIS sets up a dialectic, or perceived opposition, between the traditional Christian nations and Islamic militant ISIS, which makes it more likely that the people of the traditional Christian nations will accept more control over them by the elites. And those elites of the traditional Christian nations are anti-Christian.
It is true that this dialectic set up as the opposition between the Christian nations and Islamic ISIS brings many to focus upon things of the flesh - preparing in the flesh to fight ISIS - and makes so called Christians less likely to realize what Paul was talking about in Colossians 1: 27, "Christ in you, the hope of glory." In this way the ISIS dialectic does threaten to diminish Christian spirituality, which has already been diminished by other means in the Capital C Churches.
"There is a remnant Body of Christ out there. God knows. Everything that can be shaken is being shaken. Will you stand in this evil day? " That hope of glory, Christ in you, is what enables you to stand in the evil day which is arriving.
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are you concerned about religious freedom?