The Ever Present Problem of Atheism (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
- Start date
prodigalson
New member
Zakath, how could you of been "saved" if God doesn't exist?
You were never saved to begin with because at the point of salvation you become justified(in the eyes of God), born again(your nature), and sanctafication begins. The first two are basically one and done while sanctification will last your lifetime.
You can say your nature was changed and were 'born again' and you had righteous desires at your core but obviously you didn't(not b/c you left the church), but since you don't even have that internal struggle now of righteousness and sin.
You were never saved to begin with because at the point of salvation you become justified(in the eyes of God), born again(your nature), and sanctafication begins. The first two are basically one and done while sanctification will last your lifetime.
You can say your nature was changed and were 'born again' and you had righteous desires at your core but obviously you didn't(not b/c you left the church), but since you don't even have that internal struggle now of righteousness and sin.
Zakath
Resident Atheist
I thought I was, similar to some of the posters here...
The internal struggle is between an individual's conscience (their internal moral sense) and actions or thoughts that conflict with that moral sense.
I generally act in accord with my moral sense now so there is little conflict.
Z Man
New member
Free will exists, but not in reguards to ones salvation. Man cannot choose God because we despise God. We love sin because that is our nature. Loving God is an impossible choice that man cannot make; that takes an act of God.
Romans 8:7-8
The carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
You couldn't have thought you were saved, because if you truely believed you were saved, you'd still be. You never believed and leaving the church is evidence of this.
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
Aimiel
Well-known member
The difference between thinking one is saved and KNOWING that you are saved is like night and day. If you were truly saved, you would have KNOWN. It would have stuck, and you'd be convinced of The Truth. It is one of the simplest things to explain, but impossible to understand, objectively; just as the message of the Gospel is foolishness to them that are perishing.
Nova
New member
Newbie here, jumping into the fray:jump:
For the record, I'm not an atheist, but agnostic...and one of those ex fundamentalist 'born againer' Christians which fundamentalist 'born againer' Christians claim I never really was in the first place since I am no longer a Christian at all.
I'm familliar with the usual complaints about atheism as expressed in this thread...its 'empty and meaningless, a futile attempt to fill the Jehovah-shaped hole in your soul with sex n' drugs n' rock and roll and other fleeting materialistic concerns Of The Big, Bad World', that's usually the general gist of it.
I really don't think atheists need apologists, especially since its not an evangelical worldview, most atheists aren't seeking converts. They certainly aren't obligated to justify themselves to Christians, but for the sake of debate I'll add my $0.02
I think the assumptions made of atheists by the Christians in this thread are superficial, cliche generalizations...akin to a hypothetical atheist making a similar blanket statement like " Christians are ignorant and don't think for themselves, they don't strive to live their lives to the fullest, and they're all self-righteous, boring prudes", which is equally off the mark concerning many Christians.
If Christians are content with being Christian, I don't have anything worthwhile to gain from trying to convince them otherwise, its their life to live, and I'm in no place to go up to a complete stranger and inform them how empty and futile I think their lives must be...because I really don't jump to those conclusions, especially about complete strangers. Although I can understand how evangelicals might find that beneficial to their cause, and that some of them really do have nothing but good intentions.
But if an atheist posted a similar litany of all they see wrong with, in this case Christianity, informing you all that your lives are a meaningless charade in submission to the irrelevant mores and taboos of ancient yahoodies who had nothing better to do but wander around in the desert, and that your's is a wasted life not lived to its fullest, I'm pretty sure that you would take some offense to that assumption and maybe even assume the martyr's role, lamenting that you are being persecuted for your faith.
My only response to a Christian who assumes that my lifemust be empty and unhappy is that I simply agree to disagree. I'm certainly not obligated to sit around and justify the quality of my own existance to someone who barely knows me. And If someone, atheist or not, really were so overly concerned with what a relative stranger assumes about the innermost sanctums of their personal lives, then such a person really does need to find a more fufilling outlook on their life. :ahso:
For the record, I'm not an atheist, but agnostic...and one of those ex fundamentalist 'born againer' Christians which fundamentalist 'born againer' Christians claim I never really was in the first place since I am no longer a Christian at all.
I'm familliar with the usual complaints about atheism as expressed in this thread...its 'empty and meaningless, a futile attempt to fill the Jehovah-shaped hole in your soul with sex n' drugs n' rock and roll and other fleeting materialistic concerns Of The Big, Bad World', that's usually the general gist of it.
I really don't think atheists need apologists, especially since its not an evangelical worldview, most atheists aren't seeking converts. They certainly aren't obligated to justify themselves to Christians, but for the sake of debate I'll add my $0.02
I think the assumptions made of atheists by the Christians in this thread are superficial, cliche generalizations...akin to a hypothetical atheist making a similar blanket statement like " Christians are ignorant and don't think for themselves, they don't strive to live their lives to the fullest, and they're all self-righteous, boring prudes", which is equally off the mark concerning many Christians.
If Christians are content with being Christian, I don't have anything worthwhile to gain from trying to convince them otherwise, its their life to live, and I'm in no place to go up to a complete stranger and inform them how empty and futile I think their lives must be...because I really don't jump to those conclusions, especially about complete strangers. Although I can understand how evangelicals might find that beneficial to their cause, and that some of them really do have nothing but good intentions.
But if an atheist posted a similar litany of all they see wrong with, in this case Christianity, informing you all that your lives are a meaningless charade in submission to the irrelevant mores and taboos of ancient yahoodies who had nothing better to do but wander around in the desert, and that your's is a wasted life not lived to its fullest, I'm pretty sure that you would take some offense to that assumption and maybe even assume the martyr's role, lamenting that you are being persecuted for your faith.
My only response to a Christian who assumes that my lifemust be empty and unhappy is that I simply agree to disagree. I'm certainly not obligated to sit around and justify the quality of my own existance to someone who barely knows me. And If someone, atheist or not, really were so overly concerned with what a relative stranger assumes about the innermost sanctums of their personal lives, then such a person really does need to find a more fufilling outlook on their life. :ahso:
Nova
New member
Re: Welcome to TOL!
Re: Welcome to TOL!
:readthis:like I alluded to in my original post, I realize that the consensus among the Christians here is there's 'no such thing as an ex-Christian'. I've also heard the one about 'No such thing as an atheist', but I've never seen that applied to agnostics.
Wow, I guess that means you just completely negated my very existance! :shocked:
Re: Welcome to TOL!
Originally posted by Z Man
Agnostic huh? You'll be an interesting one to "knick pick" at...
BTW, there is no such thing as an "ex fundamentalist 'born againer' Christian". Nor is there such a thing as an agnostic... :nono:
:readthis:like I alluded to in my original post, I realize that the consensus among the Christians here is there's 'no such thing as an ex-Christian'. I've also heard the one about 'No such thing as an atheist', but I've never seen that applied to agnostics.
Wow, I guess that means you just completely negated my very existance! :shocked:
Truth or Dare
Truth or Dare
Nova-You said:
I believe you may have been a Christian at one time, but are not a Christian now. How old were you when you believed, and how old were you when you decided it was bunk?
There’s a thing called the age of accountability we might want to talk about.
You also said:
Truth or Dare
Nova-You said:
How about a slightly different view?
I believe you may have been a Christian at one time, but are not a Christian now. How old were you when you believed, and how old were you when you decided it was bunk?
There’s a thing called the age of accountability we might want to talk about.
You also said:
Whether your life is empty or full has nothing to do with it. The truth is what matters. And the truth in this case is that you do believe in a god. But which God you chose to follow is the question. The true God, or yourself. If you decide that you want to be your God, I would certainly not interfere with your choice. However, if you are instead looking for the truth, then its worth the time to discuss it with you.
Zakath
Resident Atheist
Re: Re: Welcome to TOL!
Re: Re: Welcome to TOL!
After three months the bank reposessed the family car.
After five months, they took the furniture.
After six months, they reposessed the house.
After 10 months, his wife took the kids and left.
Last I heard, the fellow is still "keeping the faith" in a homeless shelter in Chicago. He's still waiting for "God" to answer his prayers.
That, in a nutshell is the story of a real individual I know. He ignored the "things that didn't line up with the Word" and lost even his family.
Religionists are pretty good at ignoring reality when it conflicts with their preconceived ideas about faith...
Re: Re: Welcome to TOL!
Don't feel badly, Nova. Some of these folks are a bit like the fellow who quit his job to "live by faith". Every day he prayed and prayed and no money came in. His wife pleaded with him to return to work, he claimed that the deity told him to pray and it would all work out...
After three months the bank reposessed the family car.
After five months, they took the furniture.
After six months, they reposessed the house.
After 10 months, his wife took the kids and left.
Last I heard, the fellow is still "keeping the faith" in a homeless shelter in Chicago. He's still waiting for "God" to answer his prayers.
That, in a nutshell is the story of a real individual I know. He ignored the "things that didn't line up with the Word" and lost even his family.
Religionists are pretty good at ignoring reality when it conflicts with their preconceived ideas about faith...
Zakath
Resident Atheist
Just like that woman in Texas KNEW that God was telling her to kill her kids?
Just like the people that died in Guyana with Jim Jones KNEW that God was telling them what to do?
Just like the people who emasculated themselves and committed suicide at the Heaven's Gate group KNEW what was right?
History shows that such subjectivism is dangerous...
Feeling like you know comes as much from the type of person you are as from the evidence. I'm sure the agnostic and the Christian have equal evidence of God, but the Christian's drive for certainty is just stronger, and it's easier to believe something that there's little evidence of than to go through the uncertain period of finding that evidence.
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