ECT The core of the argument between Christians and MAD.

[whitestone]

All the name calling and stuff doesn't bother me. Once you begin to get to know people you can pretty much get a feel for where they're at spiritually. People like dan p musterion john w nick m grosnick etc, are completely nowhere. And a few others camp there now and again but occasionally show some class.
I tend to dismiss these people as flakes, but it's a shame the more reasonable ones don't try and keep them on a lead. They can be distracting when discussing things.

Without a doubt this is why the more serious thinkers and debaters like AMR, Lon, and Hilston choose to avoid this site, and that's a shame. There was also a MADist lady that used to post here who went to the same church as Hilston, and she was a very nice person.

All the name calling and stuff doesn't bother me. Once you begin to get to know people you can pretty much get a feel for where they're at spiritually. People like dan p musterion john w nick m grosnick etc, are completely nowhere. And a few others camp there now and again but occasionally show some class.
I tend to dismiss these people as flakes, but it's a shame the more reasonable ones don't try and keep them on a lead. They can be distracting when discussing things.

Without a doubt this is why the more serious thinkers and debaters like AMR, Lon, and Hilston choose to avoid this site, and that's a shame. There was also a MADist lady that used to post here who went to the same church as Hilston, and she was a very nice person.

I am glad that you compare other stewards of the Gospel of Grace and found that not all you have found were unruly(the woman you found to be very nice). It would make sense that if there were an hundred from another denomination a portion would be rooted in Love and a handful among them "not well rooted",but the whole of them should not be received as the others,Judas was among the 12 but is not a true reflection of the rest in faith.

I myself was drawn to t.o.l. because of the discussions concerning M.A.D. (after Googleing M.A.D.) This stemmed from questions being ask of me about them by others. If you seek other sources of information on M.A.D. and discuss the matter with them the difference is night and day as to how you will be treated.

If you after searching for them online then write to them(contact/email) and bring up this same issue it will surprise you that most will (not endorse the mistreatment of others). That is as it was explained to me by others of the same Paul himself speaks of "LOVE" and the manner of treatment more than any other of the writers in the scripture(use a concordance,count the times Paul used Love,Loveth ect.)

It is apparent from following the teachings of Paul in many of his letters that he(Paul) taught that to be rooted and grounded in Love(Ephesians 3;17)is an key example of the Gospel of Grace being expected by God. As he continues Paul beseeches that we "walk worthy of the vocation wherewith we are called"(Eph.4;1). and further describes the "unity of the spirit in bond and peace"(Eph.4;3). and describes the expected conduct(Eph.4;2). In Paul's other letters you will find many other examples (follow down the list in the concordance and compare them in his other letters).

In the "core of the argument between Christians and M.A.D." it first should be pointed out that it is not a fair assessment to state the core argument and name individuals from only this site(I notice you named the ones here). That is are the ones here the representatives of the followers of M.A.D. sent to us to discuss the matter by M.A.D.,,,or are they only a handful of people who are speaking of the things they understand about M.A.D? Would it be fair to take the Catholics on this site and discuss the "core of the differences between Christian and Catholic", as if they represented the whole of Catholicism?,,,,in the same the thread has turned from the differences between M.A.D. and not but have instead of examining the entire body of the stewards of grace and their stewardship only examined the handful of them on this site by name,You will know whom is grounded in Love if you look,they are the ones who will treat you as Paul described,let the others come to the meat as they need and let those drink milk until they are filled,but it is wise to examine each with love as to seeking this truth.

 

[Tambora]

Nope...I can't.

You CAN, you just don't.

They are flakes....simple as. As for judging, I get judged all the time. Not a big deal.

There ya go!
You, like everyone else, does it.

Now you are going to go on Levelor's black list.
(emphasis mine)

Don't forget too: The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. Matthew 10:24

And, St. Paul said: " Let your speech at all times be gracious (pleasant and winsome), seasoned [as it were] with salt, [so that you may never be at a loss] to know how you ought to answer anyone [who puts a question to you]." Colossians 4:6 (AMP)

How is calling some one a flake, your expression, gracious speech?

 

[Nick M]

LA does not curse others or tell any to go to hell like you do, day in and day out.

I know, LA is lost and would do no such thing to wolves and perverts like you.

 

[andyc]

I am glad that you compare other stewards of the Gospel of Grace and found that not all you have found were unruly(the woman you found to be very nice). It would make sense that if there were an hundred from another denomination a portion would be rooted in Love and a handful among them "not well rooted",but the whole of them should not be received as the others,Judas was among the 12 but is not a true reflection of the rest in faith.

I myself was drawn to t.o.l. because of the discussions concerning M.A.D. (after Googleing M.A.D.) This stemmed from questions being ask of me about them by others. If you seek other sources of information on M.A.D. and discuss the matter with them the difference is night and day as to how you will be treated.

If you after searching for them online then write to them(contact/email) and bring up this same issue it will surprise you that most will (not endorse the mistreatment of others). That is as it was explained to me by others of the same Paul himself speaks of "LOVE" and the manner of treatment more than any other of the writers in the scripture(use a concordance,count the times Paul used Love,Loveth ect.)

It is apparent from following the teachings of Paul in many of his letters that he(Paul) taught that to be rooted and grounded in Love(Ephesians 3;17)is an key example of the Gospel of Grace being expected by God. As he continues Paul beseeches that we "walk worthy of the vocation wherewith we are called"(Eph.4;1). and further describes the "unity of the spirit in bond and peace"(Eph.4;3). and describes the expected conduct(Eph.4;2). In Paul's other letters you will find many other examples (follow down the list in the concordance and compare them in his other letters).

In the "core of the argument between Christians and M.A.D." it first should be pointed out that it is not a fair assessment to state the core argument and name individuals from only this site(I notice you named the ones here). That is are the ones here the representatives of the followers of M.A.D. sent to us to discuss the matter by M.A.D.,,,or are they only a handful of people who are speaking of the things they understand about M.A.D? Would it be fair to take the Catholics on this site and discuss the "core of the differences between Christian and Catholic", as if they represented the whole of Catholicism?,,,,in the same the thread has turned from the differences between M.A.D. and not but have instead of examining the entire body of the stewards of grace and their stewardship only examined the handful of them on this site by name,You will know whom is grounded in Love if you look,they are the ones who will treat you as Paul described,let the others come to the meat as they need and let those drink milk until they are filled,but it is wise to examine each with love as to seeking this truth.

The flakes I mentioned are only into the MAD teaching because of the benefits that this particular angle present.
No repentance, no accountability, no walking in the Spirit, and total freedom of the flesh. When it comes to the the actual theology, they'll just agree with whatever the response is from those who are trying to present a defense of MADism.

 

[andyc]

You CAN, you just don't.

There ya go!
You, like everyone else, does it.

Now you are going to go on Levelor's black list.
(emphasis mine)

​

People who attack instead of tackling questions raised, are carnal. You know it, I know, the bible explains it. The problem is that you like some of the flaky people here, and so you don't want to be seen agreeing with me that your buddies are flakes.
That's ok, I understand that. They are flakes nevertheless.

 

[Right Divider]

Jesus and Paul never cursed people, or used similar language MADists have used to curse me to hell, and calling me the most vile names they could think of.

The next time it happens, I will be sure to contact IMJ and let her rebuke them on my behalf.

Mat 23:13-33 KJV But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. (14) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. (15) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. (16) Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! (17) Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? (18) And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. (19) Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? (20) Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. (21) And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. (22) And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon. (23) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. (24) Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. (25) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. (26) Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. (27) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. (28) Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. (29) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, (30) And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. (31) Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. (32) Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. (33) Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
​

 

[Right Divider]

You MADists are saying there was no gospel of salvation until Paul . . . so how did Paul get saved?

Always TWISTING peoples words in a vain attempt to discredit them and make yourself look superior.

Nobody preached the GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD before the Lord Jesus Christ gave it TO PAUL.

The DISPENSATION of the GRACE OF GOD was given to Paul for US!

 

[Right Divider]

That does disappoint me. I have little doubt that you love the Lord and are one of His.

Since LA boldly denied the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ, I doubt it.

 

[patrick jane]

The flakes I mentioned are only into the MAD teaching because of the benefits that this particular angle present.
No repentance, no accountability, no walking in the Spirit, and total freedom of the flesh. When it comes to the the actual theology, they'll just agree with whatever the response is from those who are trying to present a defense of MADism.

Philippians 1:12-18 KJV

 

[Right Divider]

The flakes I mentioned are only into the MAD teaching because of the benefits that this particular angle present.
No repentance, no accountability, no walking in the Spirit, and total freedom of the flesh. When it comes to the the actual theology, they'll just agree with whatever the response is from those who are trying to present a defense of MADism.

All lies, just like they said about Paul in his day.

 

[patrick jane]

I am glad that you compare other stewards of the Gospel of Grace and found that not all you have found were unruly(the woman you found to be very nice). It would make sense that if there were an hundred from another denomination a portion would be rooted in Love and a handful among them "not well rooted",but the whole of them should not be received as the others,Judas was among the 12 but is not a true reflection of the rest in faith.

I myself was drawn to t.o.l. because of the discussions concerning M.A.D. (after Googleing M.A.D.) This stemmed from questions being ask of me about them by others. If you seek other sources of information on M.A.D. and discuss the matter with them the difference is night and day as to how you will be treated.

If you after searching for them online then write to them(contact/email) and bring up this same issue it will surprise you that most will (not endorse the mistreatment of others). That is as it was explained to me by others of the same Paul himself speaks of "LOVE" and the manner of treatment more than any other of the writers in the scripture(use a concordance,count the times Paul used Love,Loveth ect.)

It is apparent from following the teachings of Paul in many of his letters that he(Paul) taught that to be rooted and grounded in Love(Ephesians 3;17)is an key example of the Gospel of Grace being expected by God. As he continues Paul beseeches that we "walk worthy of the vocation wherewith we are called"(Eph.4;1). and further describes the "unity of the spirit in bond and peace"(Eph.4;3). and describes the expected conduct(Eph.4;2). In Paul's other letters you will find many other examples (follow down the list in the concordance and compare them in his other letters).

In the "core of the argument between Christians and M.A.D." it first should be pointed out that it is not a fair assessment to state the core argument and name individuals from only this site(I notice you named the ones here). That is are the ones here the representatives of the followers of M.A.D. sent to us to discuss the matter by M.A.D.,,,or are they only a handful of people who are speaking of the things they understand about M.A.D? Would it be fair to take the Catholics on this site and discuss the "core of the differences between Christian and Catholic", as if they represented the whole of Catholicism?,,,,in the same the thread has turned from the differences between M.A.D. and not but have instead of examining the entire body of the stewards of grace and their stewardship only examined the handful of them on this site by name,You will know whom is grounded in Love if you look,they are the ones who will treat you as Paul described,let the others come to the meat as they need and let those drink milk until they are filled,but it is wise to examine each with love as to seeking this truth.

KJV Philippians 1:12-18 - in many epistles rebuke was strong by Paul, with "name-calling". there are many examples of this. love is always the first choice, however, after repeated attacks on God's Word, lovey dovey is out the window - atrol:


View attachment 19302

 

[andyc]

All lies, just like they said about Paul in his day.

Of course it's not.
Wanna see a mad get mad? Discuss dying to self. That get's em all riled up.

Mads love to quote, "it's no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me". However, they take this as covenantal positional state, not an experiential state that must be walked out though the leading of the Spirit. Someone who lives to satisfy the flesh is not allowing Christ to live in them.

 

[Nang]

Always TWISTING peoples words in a vain attempt to discredit them and make yourself look superior.

Nobody preached the GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD before the Lord Jesus Christ gave it TO PAUL.

The DISPENSATION of the GRACE OF GOD was given to Paul for US!

See the questions I ask of Nick (and all MADists) here.

How could all any soul be saved prior to Paul, if the Truth was hidden until Paul?

Do you believe any single soul was ever saved apart from grace, under the Law?

Then you deny the necessity of the Savior.

 

[Nang]

All lies, just like they said about Paul in his day.

Paul was never an Antinomian, as MADists are Antinomians.

Paul lived holy because Jesus Christ was holy. So did Peter and all the Apostles. None of them taught that redemption produced license to abandon God's moral and holy standards.

 

[whitestone]

The flakes I mentioned are only into the MAD teaching because of the benefits that this particular angle present.
No repentance, no accountability, no walking in the Spirit, and total freedom of the flesh. When it comes to the the actual theology, they'll just agree with whatever the response is from those who are trying to present a defense of MADism.

The flakes I mentioned are only into the MAD teaching because of the benefits that this particular angle present.
No repentance, no accountability, no walking in the Spirit, and total freedom of the flesh. When it comes to the the actually theology, they'll just agree with whatever the response is from those who are trying to present a defense of MADism.

It I think wouldn't be appropriate to belittle them either. I am a man whom at times become frustrated and stumble in anger. As I see mine own self getting to this point I know that the truth is that I should not.

I say this that if there is found in scripture a foundation that supports the Stewardship of Grace then it will not go away. It is apparent that they as we know were all being delivered knowledge of the truth as and at the time(timing) chosen by God. With Peter there is a good example found in (Acts 11;16) where he makes the comment "then remembered I the word of the Lord,how that he said,ect.,,,", as he is reflecting back at something. He(Peter) gives the exact point he himself was reflecting back at in (Acts 11;15) ,that is when he said "AS ON US AT THE BEGINNING". No we know he is referring to (Acts 2;3-4) when he makes his statement "the beginning" and that he is stating that this was not what he thought(knew/understood) in the beginning.

So then the thing that had not been yet given to Peter(mystery),is given to him and he now "see's it,understands,acknowledges it ect." as if in similar circumstances as if it was peters "road to Damascus story",but as we know it's the same turning point in time as the events found in chapter 9 with Paul. The same (Ephesians 3;5-6) that Paul had not been shown until acts 9,Peter had not been shown until acts 10,11. So then how can it go away that the mystery hidden until this point in history(middle Acts) then was not delivered?

As for those on T.O.L. who are of this "M.A.D" whether stewardship or dispensation or oikonomia it would not be proper for me to speak in for them as an individual. If it is good that they should not speak unkind to others it is good also for them to be spoken to with the same respect.

 

[Nang]

It I think wouldn't be appropriate to belittle them either. I am a man whom at times become frustrated and stumble in anger. As I see mine own self getting to this point I know that the truth is that I should not.

I say this that if there is found in scripture a foundation that supports the Stewardship of Grace then it will not go away. It is apparent that they as we know were all being delivered knowledge of the truth as and at the time(timing) chosen by God. With Peter there is a good example found in (Acts 11;16) where he makes the comment "then remembered I the word of the Lord,how that he said,ect.,,,", as he is reflecting back at something. He(Peter) gives the exact point he himself was reflecting back at in (Acts 11;15) ,that is when he said "AS ON US AT THE BEGINNING". No we know he is referring to (Acts 2;3-4) when he makes his statement "the beginning" and that he is stating that this was not what he thought(knew/understood) in the beginning.

So then the thing that had not been yet given to Peter(mystery),is given to him and he now "see's it,understands,acknowledges it ect." as if in similar circumstances as if it was peters "road to Damascus story",but as we know it's the same turning point in time as the events found in chapter 9 with Paul. The same (Ephesians 3;5-6) that Paul had not been shown until acts 9,Peter had not been shown until acts 10,11. So then how can it go away that the mystery hidden until this point in history(middle Acts) then was not delivered?

As for those on T.O.L. who are of this "M.A.D" whether stewardship or dispensation or oikonomia it would not be proper for me to speak in for them as an individual. If it is good that they should not speak unkind to others it is good also for them to be spoken to with the same respect.

I think the Gospel of Christ was kept hidden from Saul, until God knocked him off a horse as recorded in Acts 9.

There is no reason to blow this event up, and apply it to all and wrongly teach that no soul was shown the saving grace of God prior to when Saul was shown the saving grace of God.

There have been souls saved by the grace and Truth and promises of God since the beginning. Abel was taught the significance of shed blood for the remission of sin, and offered animals in faith in God to keep His promise of a Messiah. Multitudes of souls were saved by grace through faith prior to the Incarnation of that Savior, and they are recorded in Scripture in Hebrews Chapter 11.

The belief grace was only dispensed during Paul's lifetime, has no basis in fact or history or Holy Scripture. It is a myth, which has developed a cult following, who deny saving grace to none other but themselves. MADists are the ones who belittle those who refuse to restrict the Gospel to I Corinthians 15:1-4.

 

[whitestone]

I think the Gospel of Christ was kept hidden from Saul, until God knocked him off a horse as recorded in Acts 9.

There is no reason to blow this event up, and apply it to all and wrongly teach that no soul was shown the saving grace of God prior to when Saul was shown the saving grace of God.

There have been souls saved by the grace and Truth and promises of God since the beginning. Abel was taught the significance of shed blood for the remission of sin, and offered animals in faith in God to keep His promise of a Messiah. Multitudes of souls were saved by grace through faith prior to the Incarnation of that Savior, and they are recorded in Scripture in Hebrews Chapter 11.

The belief grace was only dispensed during Paul's lifetime, has no basis in fact or history or Holy Scripture. It is a myth, which has developed a cult following, who deny saving grace to none other but themselves. MADists are the ones who belittle those who refuse to restrict the Gospel to I Corinthians 15:1-4.

In (acts 11;15-17) is Peter saying that he already understood this(what was shown to him in Acts 10;10-15) or in acts 11;15-17 is Peter saying that he fell into a trance and was shown something he did not know in acts 2?

 

[Tambora]

The flakes I mentioned are only into the MAD teaching because of the benefits that this particular angle present.
No repentance, no accountability, no walking in the Spirit, and total freedom of the flesh.

Andy, what are you doing?!!!!

How many MADist have you seen here that talk against abortion, adultery, homosexuality, child molesters, etc.?
It's not that we just lay down and live and let live.
Where we draw the line is when one claims that their behavior in the flesh is what keeps one from being saved.

When it comes to the the actual theology, they'll just agree with whatever the response is from those who are trying to present a defense of MADism.

Also not true.
I have questioned things that some MADist say, and they have discussed it with me and sometimes we don't come to the exact same conclusion in the details. And sometimes they make things clearer to me.

 

[Tambora]

People who attack instead of tackling questions raised,

But the MADists here DO tackle questions.
Been doing it all along.

So, what the hell are you talking about?
:idunno:

 

[andyc]

It I think wouldn't be appropriate to belittle them either. I am a man whom at times become frustrated and stumble in anger. As I see mine own self getting to this point I know that the truth is that I should not.

I don't belittle them. I ignore them. If people want to call me a wolf, demon, idiot, moron, instead of tackle the questions raised, I'm not going to take those people seriously. Would you?

I say this that if there is found in scripture a foundation that supports the Stewardship of Grace then it will not go away. It is apparent that they as we know were all being delivered knowledge of the truth as and at the time(timing) chosen by God. With Peter there is a good example found in (Acts 11;16) where he makes the comment "then remembered I the word of the Lord,how that he said,ect.,,,", as he is reflecting back at something. He(Peter) gives the exact point he himself was reflecting back at in (Acts 11;15) ,that is when he said "AS ON US AT THE BEGINNING". No we know he is referring to (Acts 2;3-4) when he makes his statement "the beginning" and that he is stating that this was not what he thought(knew/understood) in the beginning.

So then the thing that had not been yet given to Peter(mystery),is given to him and he now "see's it,understands,acknowledges it ect." as if in similar circumstances as if it was peters "road to Damascus story",but as we know it's the same turning point in time as the events found in chapter 9 with Paul. The same (Ephesians 3;5-6) that Paul had not been shown until acts 9,Peter had not been shown until acts 10,11. So then how can it go away that the mystery hidden until this point in history(middle Acts) then was not delivered?

As for those on T.O.L. who are of this "M.A.D" whether stewardship or dispensation or oikonomia it would not be proper for me to speak in for them as an individual. If it is good that they should not speak unkind to others it is good also for them to be spoken to with the same respect.

You'll need to start a thread on this, and then we can get into it.