the church

[Cruciform]

Martin Luther was a Catholic monk, and when he studied the Bible...In fact, all the Reformists were trained very well in Catholicism.

They were also well trained in Nominalist philosophy, which they combined with Christian doctrine to formulate their own novel and heterodox teachings. If they had stuck with the Catholic teachings that they had been taught, all would have been well.

Don't you find it a bit funny that as soon as Bibles were mass produced, the Roman Church started losing influence?

The 16th-century Protestant Rebellion was partially fueled by the speed with which the printing press was able to spread the heretical doctrines of the Protestant sectarians. Although the fact is that the first book ever printed on a press was a Catholic Bible!

 

[Cruciform]

Baptism is not necessary for salvation.

The Sacrament of Baptism is God's normative means of grace whereby one is "born from above" (regenerated) and initiated into the New Covenant community (the Church). For example, see THIS.

 

[Crucible]

They were also well trained in Nominalist philosophy, which they combined with Christian doctrine to formulate their own novel and heterodox teachings. If they had stuck with the Catholic teachings that they had been taught, all would have been well.

Or, the Catholic Church was just plain idolatrous, as Luther amply pointed out.

The 16th-century Protestant Rebellion was partially fueled by the speed with which the printing press was able to spread the heretical doctrines of the Protestant sectarians. Although the fact is that the first book ever printed on a press was a Catholic Bible!

Luther read a Catholic Bible. In fact, Protestant Bibles had the Apocrypha, only it was separate from the rest of the canon.

 

[Cruciform]

The church is No one's mother, and the early church looked nothing like the opulent religious mental institution of today the RCC, with it's amazing wealth and pompous rituals and vestments of silver and gold ...get real the RCC has ballooned into a religious monster that has No relation to the Word of God, but has become a god unto itself..

...according to the entirely non-authoritative opinions of your preferred recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect, anyway. :yawn:

 

[Cruciform]

Or, the Catholic Church was just plain idolatrous, as Luther amply pointed out.

The so-called "reformers" couldn't even agree with one another regarding what constituted the central doctrines of the Christian faith. Who cares what Luther thought? He had no more doctrinal authority to replace the Church's established authoritative teachings with his own subjective and fallible opinions than had, for example, Arius, Pelagius, or Sabellius before him.

 

[Totton Linnet]

What? selling pardon for cash? sure Luther had the right

 

[dodge]

Yes, once again the entirely non-authoritative opinions fed to you by your preferred recently-invented, man-made anti-Catholic sect are noted. :yawn:

I follow the authority of scripture NOT your man made traditions and your sinful pope.

 

[Right Divider]

The so-called "reformers" couldn't even agree with one another regarding what constituted the central doctrines of the Christian faith. Who cares what Luther thought? He had no more doctrinal authority to replace the Church's established authoritative teachings with his own subjective and fallible opinions than had, for example, Arius, Pelagius, or Sabellius before him.

And yet the Roman "church" totally agrees on everything because they have one really cool dude that makes all of the infallible pronouncements. How convenient!

Your "church" is NOT what you say that it is and all you do is keep on claiming that it is.

 

[TulipBee]

I agree with you that Scriptures define the gospel as the righteousness of God but, which gospel, the gospel of Paul or the gospel of Jesus? The gospel of Paul was the NT. The gospel of Jesus was the Tanach. The reason for the distinction is that Paul was a Christian and Jesus was a Jew. Now, you decide the one you take as the righteousness of God: The gospel of Paul or the gospel of Jesus?

The bible was breathed by God

 

[Nihilo]

Baptism is not necessary for salvation. It is the initiatory sign and seal into the covenant of grace. As circumcision referred to the cutting away of sin and to a change of heart (Deut. 10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4; 9:25, 26; Ezk.44:7, 9) baptism refers to the washing away of sin (Acts 2:38; 1 Pet. 3:21; Tit. 3:5) and to spiritual renewal (Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:11-12). The circumcision of the heart is signified by the circumcision of the flesh, that is, baptism (Col. 2:11-12).

One last thought: If someone maintains that baptism is necessary for salvation, is he adding a work, his own, to the finished work of Christ? If the answer is yes, then that person would be in terrible risk of not being saved. If the answer is no, then why is baptism maintained as being necessary the same way as the Jews maintained that works were necessary?

You are a profound idiot. The Lord Jesus Christ commanded His Apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Nihilo]

"Popery is the gospel transubstantiated into the flesh and blood of Paganism,"

James Wiley--History of the Papacy

"I find your lack of faith disturbing."

Darth Vader

 

[Nihilo]

The church is No one's mother, and the early church looked nothing like the opulent religious mental institution of today the RCC, with it's amazing wealth and pompous rituals and vestments of silver and gold ...get real the RCC has ballooned into a religious monster that has No relation to the Word of God, but has become a god unto itself..

Here's what I see. You're God is your Bible, and your god is stingy, and the real God, the Most Holy and Most Blessed and Undivided Trinity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, continues to pour out His blessings upon His actual Church, and you, with your puny, made up, stupid, dumb, mute god, the Bible, isn't exactly any kind of comparison. "Please Bible, please help me." Even though this very Bible, that never claimed to be a god, nor desires your worship, itself, internally, says, "CHURCH." Even if you're "Bible only," sooner or later, you'd think, you'd have to actually read it, and see what it says, and it says "CHURCH."

CHURCH. What's the Church? The communion of saints. The Body of Christ. The Bride of Christ. Various particular churches are addressed in various epistles. Particular churches are dioceses. When the Roman particular church (the one that Romans was written to) got too big, it separated into parishes. Those parishes were all part of the Roman particular church or diocese of Rome, or, today, Holy See.

The Bible says Church. Stop bothering the Bible so much. You've drained it dry. All it has for you, is neon flashing arrows pointing to CHURCH. Just accept it.

 

[Ben Masada]

The bible was breathed by God

Not the gospel of Paul but yes, the gospel of Jesus. Even Jesus himself, every time he referred to the Scriptures as the Word of God, he had the tanach in his mind. The NT, he never even dreamed would ever rise.

 

[TulipBee]

You are a profound idiot. The Lord Jesus Christ commanded His Apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Baptism gets you wet. It is an act of obedience, but it plays no part in regeneration except as an outward sign of an inward change.

 

[Nihilo]

*Baptism gets you wet. It is an act of obedience, but it plays no part in regeneration except as an outward sign of an inward change.

You're the one who wondered, why make a big deal about baptism, in the face of the Lord Himself commanding that it be done, not me.

 

[TulipBee]

Here's what I see. You're God is your Bible, and your god is stingy, and the real God, the Most Holy and Most Blessed and Undivided Trinity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, continues to pour out His blessings upon His actual Church, and you, with your puny, made up, stupid, dumb, mute god, the Bible, isn't exactly any kind of comparison. "Please Bible, please help me." Even though this very Bible, that never claimed to be a god, nor desires your worship, itself, internally, says, "CHURCH." Even if you're "Bible only," sooner or later, you'd think, you'd have to actually read it, and see what it says, and it says "CHURCH."

CHURCH. What's the Church? The communion of saints. The Body of Christ. The Bride of Christ. Various particular churches are addressed in various epistles. Particular churches are dioceses. When the Roman particular church (the one that Romans was written to) got too big, it separated into parishes. Those parishes were all part of the Roman particular church or diocese of Rome, or, today, Holy See.

The Bible says Church. Stop bothering the Bible so much. You've drained it dry. All it has for you, is neon flashing arrows pointing to CHURCH. Just accept it.

Francis A. Sullivan, who was professor Ameritus at the University of Rome for like 30 years, a Roman Catholic, wrote a book called From. Apostles To Bishops in which he states that Peter was never a Bishop of Rome & in fact, he says, Rome had no Bishops until the middle of the 2nd century. He says until then Rome was ruled by a plurality of elders.
Too bad papal apologists won't admit what their own historians all attest to.

 

[TulipBee]

You're the one who wondered, why make a big deal about baptism, in the face of the Lord Himself commanding that it be done, not me.

Nevermind you. Lord commands two. Roman Catholicism openly admits that many of their doctrines did NOT originate from the Bible, but from the church itself. It is blasphemy to recognize the writings of the church fathers as inspired by God. For example, in 1834, the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary was proclaimed by Pope Pius IX. The Bible states that all men, with the sole exception of Christ, are sinners.
Mary herself had need of a Savior (Romans 3:23; 5:12; Psalm 51:5; Luke 1:30,46,47). In 1439, the doctrine of Purgatory was proclaimed as a dogma of faith by Council of Florence. The Bible says that Christ instituted only two ordinances, Baptism and the Lord's Supper (Matthew 28:19-20; 26:26-28).

 

[TulipBee]

The Bull Unam Sanctam.(a.k.a Unam Baloney Sanctam).. Issued by POPE BONIFACE VIII thus reads: ”The Roman Pontiff judges all men, but is judged by no one. We declare, assert, define and pronounce: to be subject to the Roman Pontiff is to every human creature necessary for salvation ... I have the authority of the King of Kings. I am all in all and above all, so that God himself and I, the vicar of God, have but one consistory, and I am able to do all that God can do.”
In the New Catholic Catechism under Supremacy of the Pope. The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, “is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful.” “For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered.”
Catholic Catechism- Salvation Only Comes Through the Catholic Church
(846) How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”
In 2000 The Vatican in a 36-page document stated that Roman Catholicism is the only “instrument for the salvation of all humanity,” that all “other” Christians are “deficient,” and Anglican and Protestant churches “are not churches in the proper sense.”

 

[Nihilo]

Nevermind you. Lord commands two. Roman Catholicism openly admits that many of their doctrines did NOT originate from the Bible, but from the church itself. It is blasphemy to recognize the writings of the church fathers as inspired by God. For example, in 1834, the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary was proclaimed by Pope Pius IX. The Bible states that all men, with the sole exception of Christ, are sinners.
Mary herself had need of a Savior (Romans 3:23; 5:12; Psalm 51:5; Luke 1:30,46,47). In 1439, the doctrine of Purgatory was proclaimed as a dogma of faith by Council of Florence. The Bible says that Christ instituted only two ordinances, Baptism and the Lord's Supper (Matthew 28:19-20; 26:26-28).

And so, after all that, you still think that baptism isn't necessary for the Church to perform? I'm really not talking about salvation, I'm talking about, should the Church make a big deal about baptism, yes or no. I say yes, and the Holy Catholic Church says yes, and as you admit here, the Lord Himself commanded that it be done.

What are you even wondering about? Are you worried about the extreme minority of people who are given and who receive faith, but cannot be baptized before they succumb to untimely demise? Don't. The Church teaches they're fine. Are you worried about someone who believes but who is led astray by those who say to not worry about being baptized? Don't worry, the Church teaches they're fine too. What about if someone can only be baptized by their friend or neighbor, who is an atheist or heathen? No problem; Church teaches anybody can baptize validly in the name of the Trinity, if needed.

I don't get the problem.

'Thing is I do. Baptism runs square into a theology based on the Bible in a vacuum, focusing only on the theme of grace and salvation by faith, in the process utterly nullifying something our Lord actually told the foundation of His Church to be sure to do. Baptize. Baptize, baptize, baptize.

The Church doesn't see a problem with this and nor do I.

You're learned in such matters. When the Church was young, did she ever neglect baptizing? Why would you think that what the Church believed and taught when she was so young, and so near to the Lord and to His Apostles in time, much nearer than we are now, that she would get something so fundamental wrong? What possesses someone to think that? Why have you no faith that the Lord is good for His promises. Whatever "the gates of hell" are, we can at least be sure that His Church didn't immediately nosedive into fatal doctrinal error upon the departure of the Apostles, can't we? I mean, seriously?

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

 

[Nihilo]

The Bull Unam Sanctam.(a.k.a Unam Baloney Sanctam).. Issued by POPE BONIFACE VIII thus reads: ”The Roman Pontiff judges all men, but is judged by no one. We declare, assert, define and pronounce: to be subject to the Roman Pontiff is to every human creature necessary for salvation ... I have the authority of the King of Kings. I am all in all and above all, so that God himself and I, the vicar of God, have but one consistory, and I am able to do all that God can do.”
In the New Catholic Catechism under Supremacy of the Pope. The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, “is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful.” “For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered.”
Catholic Catechism- Salvation Only Comes Through the Catholic Church
(846) How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”
In 2000 The Vatican in a 36-page document stated that Roman Catholicism is the only “instrument for the salvation of all humanity,” that all “other” Christians are “deficient,” and Anglican and Protestant churches “are not churches in the proper sense.”

Correct.