The Calvinist Doctrine of Total Depravity, Totally Refuted

[Lon]

We are not indirect objects, Lon. You might as well call us puppets and be done with it. What you are doing is reading your own understanding into scripture that I'm convinced says the opposite of what you say. Yes, we've been bought with a price....and we came willingly. We are called by the Gospel itself.

Read the verses again. We 'are' the indirect objects of God's actions in Romans 8-10. It is grammatically true thus true despite an iota of protestation. We are not 'gods.' I'm opposed to that kind of thinking. In order to take up my cross and be 'owned' by Christ I must become an object acted upon. Ephesians 2:10 demands I be acted upon.

Denying self means I am supposed to become His object, He being direct, and I being subordinate. John 15:5 "Without me, you can't do even one thing." That is an indirect object. As unbelievers, we 'thought' we were direct objects because we were without Christ in the world. Ephesians 2:12

 

[glorydaz]

Read the verses again. We 'are' the indirect objects of God's actions in Romans 8-10. It is grammatically true thus true despite an iota of protestation. We are not 'gods.' I'm opposed to that kind of thinking. In order to take up my cross and be 'owned' by Christ I must become an object acted upon. Ephesians 2:10 demands I be acted upon.

Denying self means I am supposed to become His object, He being direct, and I being subordinate.

I thought you were talking about salvation. You're not?

 

[Robert Pate]

Read the verses again. We 'are' the indirect objects of God's actions in Romans 8-10. It is grammatically true thus true despite an iota of protestation. We are not 'gods.' I'm opposed to that kind of thinking. In order to take up my cross and be 'owned' by Christ I must become an object acted upon. Ephesians 2:10 demands I be acted upon.

Denying self means I am supposed to become His object, He being direct, and I being subordinate. John 15:5 "Without me, you can't do even one thing." That is an indirect object. As unbelievers, we 'thought' we were direct objects because we were without Christ in the world. Ephesians 2:12

If God wanted robots or puppets he would have created them.

He apparently didn't want robots or puppets or Adam never would have sinned against him.

Robots and puppets don't bring any glory to God.

What brings glory to God is when a sinner by his own free will calls on Christ to save him.

 

[glorydaz]

If God wanted robots or puppets he would have created them.

He apparently didn't want robots or puppets or Adam never would have sinned against him.

Robots and puppets don't bring any glory to God.

What brings glory to God is when a sinner by his own free will calls on Christ to save him.

And that's what I thought you were talking about. :idunno:

 

[Lon]

I thought you were talking about salvation. You're not?

Even in that, we subordinate to Christ and willingly. We 'are saved' thus are yet the indirect objects. I do understand your point on this one, however. Thanks for clarity.

 

[Brother Ducky]

Nor are there any scriptures about anyone being predestinated to heaven or to hell.

No one is a bother or a sister in Christ if they have not come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him.

Acts 13:48

You say that all are in Christ. Why would you insist that any are not your brother or sister? Maybe you could say that after death, but not while any lives and breathes.

 

[Robert Pate]

Acts 13:48

You say that all are in Christ. Why would you insist that any are not your brother or sister? Maybe you could say that after death, but not while any lives and breathes.

What I said is... that for now, God sees all things in his Son Jesus Christ, Colossians 1:20.

This does not mean that there will not be a judgment of unbelievers when Christ returns.

In the judgment you will be found to be "In Christ" if you believe the Gospel. If you do not believe the Gospel your sins will be imputed back to you and you will perish.

 

[Lon]

If God wanted robots or puppets he would have created them.

How do you know that we weren't made that way? What if 'no strings' is the result of sin? John 15:5 and Colossians 1:16 True? If so, it looks like strings to me. Am I wicked for thinking scripture actually teaches that?

He apparently didn't want robots or puppets or Adam never would have sinned against him.

Here, you are intuiting, not giving a scripture clarity. Doesn't that mean you are depending on yourself regarding theology instead of scripture? What did you do with Romans 9:18? Is it true? Is the God of Romans 9:18 your God? He HAS to be mine. He's got my strings.

Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and He hardens whomever He wills.

Robots and puppets don't bring any glory to God.

Apple Computers don't bring glory to Wozniak or Jobs? :idunno: You are making a bold assertion that I don't believe is true. If I am supposed to 'deny myself' thus giving Him authority over me, isn't that what I truly want? Him pulling my strings? If I am not my own, doesn't that mean He holds my strings? :idunno:

What brings glory to God is when a sinner by his own free will calls on Christ to save him.

Take out 'by his/her own free will' and I can say "yes." John 15:16 Ephesians 1:3-5 1 John 4:10 Acts 16:14 John 6:65 John 1:3 and 1 Corinthians 4:7 That isn't autonomy.

 

[Robert Pate]

You don't even believe the Gospel! You don't believe that Christ death saved them He died for!

Jude 4.

 

[beloved57]

What I said is... that for now, God sees all things in his Son Jesus Christ, Colossians 1:20.

This does not mean that there will not be a judgment of unbelievers when Christ returns.

In the judgment you will be found to be "In Christ" if you believe the Gospel. If you do not believe the Gospel your sins will be imputed back to you and you will perish.

False comments and charging God with injustice by indicating that He will impute sins back to them that He imputed their sins to Christ already! Blasphemy!

 

[Robert Pate]

How do you know that we weren't made that way? What if 'no strings' is the result of sin? John 15:5 and Colossians 1:16 True? If so, it looks like strings to me. Am I wicked for thinking scripture actually teaches that?


Here, you are intuiting, not giving a scripture clarity. Doesn't that mean you are depending on yourself regarding theology instead of scripture? What did you do with Romans 9:18? Is it true? Is the God of Romans 9:18 your God? He HAS to be mine. He's got my strings.



Apple Computers don't bring glory to Wozniak or Jobs? :idunno: You are making a bold assertion that I don't believe is true. If I am supposed to 'deny myself' thus giving Him authority over me, isn't that what I truly want? Him pulling my strings? If I am not my own, doesn't that mean He holds my strings? :idunno:


Take out 'by his/her own free will' and I can say "yes." John 15:16 Ephesians 1:3-5 1 John 4:10 Acts 16:14 John 6:65 John 1:3 and 1 Corinthians 4:7 That isn't autonomy.

Where does it say that Adam lost his free will in the fall?

What Adam lost in the fall was his relationship with God, not his free will.

Did not Cain murder his brother Able by his own free will? Or are you going to blame that on God?

This is the problem with Calvinism. Man is responsible for nothing and God is to responsible for all of the sins of man because man is nothing but a mindless robot.

You have no scripture that says God has predestinated anyone to heaven or to hell. If it were a true doctrine the Bible would be full of it. There is nothing.

 

[beloved57]

Where does it say that Adam lost his free will in the fall?

What Adam lost in the fall was his relationship with God, not his free will.

Did not Cain murder his brother Able by his own free will? Or are you going to blame that on God?

This is the problem with Calvinism. Man is responsible for nothing and God is to responsible for all of the sins of man because man is nothing but a mindless robot.

You have no scripture that says God has predestinated anyone to heaven or to hell. If it were a true doctrine the Bible would be full of it. There is nothing.

What scripture says that Adam had a freewill? I like to see it if it exists!

 

[Brother Ducky]

What I said is... that for now, God sees all things in his Son Jesus Christ, Colossians 1:20.

This does not mean that there will not be a judgment of unbelievers when Christ returns.

In the judgment you will be found to be "In Christ" if you believe the Gospel. If you do not believe the Gospel your sins will be imputed back to you and you will perish.

So for now you should consider all people to be your Christian brothers and sisters until the judgement. After that, maybe not.

Again, since you demand scripture from others, how about at least 5 clear scriptural references to the re-imputation of sin. The five being one more than the 4 [and therefore meaningless] number of references to predestination that informs your hermaneutic.

 

[Robert Pate]

So for now you should consider all people to be your Christian brothers and sisters until the judgement. After that, maybe not.

Again, since you demand scripture from others, how about at least 5 clear scriptural references to the re-imputation of sin. The five being one more than the 4 [and therefore meaningless] number of references to predestination that informs your hermaneutic.

Even though God has reconciled the whole world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

God still knows who are his and who are not his. God's mark of ownership is the Holy Spirit. If you are not indwelt with the Holy Spirit you are not his.

The Holy Spirit is only given to those who have heard and believe the Gospel, Romans 10:17.

There will be a judgment. Those that are not "In Christ" will have their sins imputed back to them and will be condemned, whether you believe it or not, Romans 4:8.

 

[Brother Ducky]

Even though God has reconciled the whole world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

God still knows who are his and who are not his. God's mark of ownership is the Holy Spirit. If you are not indwelt with the Holy Spirit you are not his.

The Holy Spirit is only given to those who have heard and believe the Gospel, Romans 10:17.

There will be a judgment. Those that are not "In Christ" will have their sins imputed back to them and will be condemned, whether you believe it or not, Romans 4:8.

So being in Christ is a meaningless construct for you? You can be in Christ, and damned at the same time. You can be in Christ and not in Christ at the same time?

So, regarding the re-imputation of sins, you go to one and only verse that does not mention the re-imputation of sins as support???? If predestination [which you would have to admit is really mentioned is Scripture] needs more than four references to be taken seriously, why in the world would you even begin to put forth a doctrine based on only one verse, which does not even mention the concept at all????????????????????

 

[beloved57]

Even though God has reconciled the whole world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

God still knows who are his and who are not his. God's mark of ownership is the Holy Spirit. If you are not indwelt with the Holy Spirit you are not his.

The Holy Spirit is only given to those who have heard and believe the Gospel, Romans 10:17.

There will be a judgment. Those that are not "In Christ" will have their sins imputed back to them and will be condemned, whether you believe it or not, Romans 4:8.

False teaching ! You don't believe or understand those verses you quoted!

 

[Robert Pate]

False teaching ! You don't believe or understand those verses you quoted!

Jude 4.