The Calvinist Doctrine of Total Depravity, Totally Refuted

[Cedarbay]

Wake up!

You never come back to me with scripture because you have no scripture. All that you have is the writtings of a heretic.

The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

The Bible also clearly teaches that God imputes sin, Romans 4:8.

Please don't answer this post if you don't have scripture to make your point.

Getting back to the OP regarding total depravity:

Who is the One seeking and saving in Luke 19:10?

Sinners do not seek God. They seek after the benefits God can give them.

Pate, do you sincerely believe that humankind has a true fear for the justice and holiness of God?

Romans 3:18

 

[beloved57]

Getting back to the OP regarding total depravity:

Who is the One seeking and saving in Luke 19:10?

Sinners do not seek God. They seek after the benefits God can give them.

Pate, do you sincerely believe that humankind has a true fear for the justice and holiness of God?

Romans 3:18

Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Thats absolutely true, not one of us as sinners in the flesh seek after God, not the True God that is ! And that word seeketh is the same word that is associated with Faith here Heb 11:6

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Its the greek word ekzeteo and means:

I seek out, seek out after, require. to seek the favor of God, worship him,

None by Nature seeks the True God in Faith ! That confirms total depravity !

 

[Robert Pate]

For someone who holds to a realized atonement, who believes that Christ actually atoned for the sins of all, you are awfully quick to condemn an awful lot of people.

You problem is not with me or what I teach.

Your problem is that you don't believe what the Bible says.

You have 0 faith in Christ and his Gospel.

 

[beloved57]

You problem is not with me or what I teach.

Your problem is that you don't believe what the Bible says.

You have 0 faith in Christ and his Gospel.

You teach that millions for whom Christ died shall wind up in Hell lost! That's zero Faith in Christ!

 

[serpentdove]

...Why would a God that so loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son, John 3:16, create people that are not able to hear and believe the Gospel and be saved? Answer is, he doesn't...

God grants repentance (2 Ti 2:25).

The issue at hand is Pate's thesis statement, to the effect that "Total Depravity is incorrect." I believe that if he makes such a statement he should be willing and able to support his statement with scripture.

And get by Ro 3:11-12.

 

[serpentdove]

The necessity of the new birth grows out of the incapacity of the natural man to "see" or "enter" into" the Kingdom of God. However gifted, moral, or refined he may be, the natural man is absolutely blind to spiritual truth and impotent to enter the kingdom; for he can neither obey, understand, nor please God (John 3:3). This new birth is not some type of worthless self reformation, but rather a creative act of the Holy Spirit. The condition of the new birth is faith in Christ crucified. Through the new birth, the believer becomes a member of the family of God and a partaker of the divine nature, the life of Christ himself.

Right. There is nothing good in man (Rom. 3:9–19). Until one receives the spirit of God (Jn 7:38, 39; Ac 2:1–47), he's not going to get it (Heb. 6:4).

 

[serpentdove]

Free-will choosing - regarding salvation in Christ - is in direct opposition to total depravity.

Man is depraved (Ps 51:5) and he is free to choose God (2 Pe 3:9, Ac 17:27).

 

[Cedarbay]

Man is depraved (Ps 51:5) and he is free to choose God (2 Pe 3:9, Ac 17:27).

This is indeed the doctrine of most Protestant Evangelicalism, whose view is no different than Roman Catholicism.

 

[Brother Ducky]

You problem is not with me or what I teach.

Your problem is that you don't believe what the Bible says.

You have 0 faith in Christ and his Gospel.

No problems with you. Problems with much of your teaching. But unlike you I understand that it is not a matter of salvation.

I, of course, believe what the Bible says. We, of course, have differing interpretations regarding different things.

I might not have your great faith, but it is more than zero. And fortunately, salvation is by grace through faith. God's grace is more than sufficient to make up for my little faith.

And while you profess that you believe salvation is by faith alone, when I read your posts you are often adding stuff to it.
Faith plus being anti-Catholic.
Faith plus being anti- Reformed.
Faith plus believing just like Pate.
And you probably can not find a Gospel summary or long passage whereby any of these beliefs are enumerated.

It seems to me that you have the problem with your teaching. You start strong and have to add so much to it. If you really hold to your realized universal atonement and all that would imply you would have to consider all people to be your brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[Robert Pate]

No problems with you. Problems with much of your teaching. But unlike you I understand that it is not a matter of salvation.

I, of course, believe what the Bible says. We, of course, have differing interpretations regarding different things.

I might not have your great faith, but it is more than zero. And fortunately, salvation is by grace through faith. God's grace is more than sufficient to make up for my little faith.

And while you profess that you believe salvation is by faith alone, when I read your posts you are often adding stuff to it.
Faith plus being anti-Catholic.
Faith plus being anti- Reformed.
Faith plus believing just like Pate.
And you probably can not find a Gospel summary or long passage whereby any of these beliefs are enumerated.

It seems to me that you have the problem with your teaching. You start strong and have to add so much to it. If you really hold to your realized universal atonement and all that would imply you would have to consider all people to be your brothers and sisters in Christ.

If you believed what the Bible says you would not adhere to the Calvinst teaching, simply because the Bible does not support Calvinism. There are no scriptures that support a limited atonement. Nor are there any scriptures about anyone being predestinated to heaven or to hell.

What it does support is the Gospel and justification by faith. Which means that we are justified by Christ.

What you need to do is get all of your religious writings together and throw them in the trash.

No one is a bother or a sister in Christ if they have not come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him.

 

[Lon]

The entrance into heaven is by hearing and believing the Gospel, not by being predestinated. predestination makes God unjust.

Rom 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—
Rom 9:12 she was told, "The older will serve the younger."
Rom 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
Rom 9:24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As indeed he says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,' and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'"
Rom 9:26 "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"
Rom 9:27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved,
Rom 9:28 for the Lord will carry out His sentence upon the earth fully and without delay."

So that's not 'Calvinism' but scripture. Forget who I am that I would embrace this passage. Rather, instead of scapegoating a group, deal with the scripture. It is NOT Calvinist. It is in an Open Theist Bible too!

I disagree with odd interpretations of this passage. It says what it says and is clear. Imho, an Open Theist needs to believe the same passage and embrace it a it is. You can make another thread on the topic every month after this, but you are spinning your wheels until you acknowledge that this passage legitimizes God's sovereignty over man:

Rom 9:19 [Then Robert Pate] will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O [Robert Pate], to answer back to God (see? Even Paul said you were talking back to God and not him or me)? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"

"Yes, Apostle Paul, Robert Pate Does ask 'why have you made me like this!?" -->

predestination makes God unjust.

You are on record as saying if God is like Romans 9 says, then He will not be your God.

 

[Robert Pate]

Rom 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—
Rom 9:12 she was told, "The older will serve the younger."
Rom 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
Rom 9:24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As indeed he says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,' and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'"
Rom 9:26 "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"
Rom 9:27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved,
Rom 9:28 for the Lord will carry out His sentence upon the earth fully and without delay."

So that's not 'Calvinism' but scripture. Forget who I am that I would embrace this passage. Rather, instead of scapegoating a group, deal with the scripture. It is NOT Calvinist. It is in an Open Theist Bible too!

None of those scriptures prove predestination.

Please show me one scripture where God has predestinated someone to heaven or to hell? There is none.

Please show me one scripture that says Jesus made a limited atonement? There is none.

The only people that are God's people are the ones that have come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him.

 

[Lon]

None of those scriptures prove predestination.

Please show me one scripture where God has predestinated someone to heaven or to hell? There is none.

Please show me one scripture that says Jesus made a limited atonement? There is none.

The only people that are God's people are the ones that have come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him.

:doh: THIS passage is about salvation, Robert. Only a couple of verses later:
Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

And just prior in chapter 8:
Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.


Note the verbs: It is ALL God. We are indirect objects, the ones "acted upon." How sovereign is God over your life, Robert Pate? How much do you still own????

Does God 'own' you? Yes or no?

Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

...embrace this passage.

 

[beloved57]

If you believed what the Bible says you would not adhere to the Calvinst teaching, simply because the Bible does not support Calvinism. There are no scriptures that support a limited atonement. Nor are there any scriptures about anyone being predestinated to heaven or to hell.

What it does support is the Gospel and justification by faith. Which means that we are justified by Christ.

What you need to do is get all of your religious writings together and throw them in the trash.

No one is a bother or a sister in Christ if they have not come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him.

Calvinism is the Gospel, the Doctrines of Grace!

 

[Robert Pate]

:doh: THIS passage is about salvation, Robert. Only a couple of verses later:
Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

And just prior in chapter 8:
Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.


Note the verbs: It is ALL God. We are indirect objects, the ones "acted upon." How sovereign is God over your life, Robert Pate? How much do you still own????

Does God 'own' you? Yes or no?

The only one that owns me is Jesus Christ, 1 Corinthians 6:20.

 

[Robert Pate]

Calvinism is the Gospel, the Doctrines of Grace!

Jude 4.

 

[Lon]

The only one that owns me is Jesus Christ, 1 Corinthians 6:20.

Great! Then He calls the shots thus 'predestining you' Ephesians 2:10

I am VERY pleased you can give up scapegoating and crucifying Calvinists now, Robert. From now on, you need to ask for permission to start these threads, from Him, in prayer because HE OWNS YOU! Let HIM destinate you and stop being selfish and self-willed. Be Christ willed as your assertion states.
Zealousy without knowledge is haphazard and reckless, like the sons of thunder Christ corrected and stopped.

1 Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know ...that you are not your own?
1Corinthians 6:20 You were bought with a price.

Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Is this verse in your bible AND honored, Robert? If it is, you are continually arguing with your Creator, not me, not Calvinists. I simply believe this verse exactly as it reads. Do you Robert? Do you belong to ▲This▲ God? Yes or no. Do you belong to the God who wrote this verse? Yes or no? This is it. This is the one verse for you to say yes or no over. It is the verse that will leave you wrongly scapegoating Calvinists for what God says or be your "Oh..." moment.

Who is your God, Robert? Is it this God who "hardens whomever He wills?" Yes or no? Yes or no?

 

[glorydaz]

:doh: THIS passage is about salvation, Robert. Only a couple of verses later:
Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

And just prior in chapter 8:
Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.


Note the verbs: It is ALL God. We are indirect objects, the ones "acted upon." How sovereign is God over your life, Robert Pate? How much do you still own????

Does God 'own' you? Yes or no?

We are not indirect objects, Lon. You might as well call us puppets and be done with it. What you are doing is reading your own understanding into scripture that I'm convinced says the opposite of what you say. Yes, we've been bought with a price....and we came willingly. We are called by the Gospel itself.

 

[Robert Pate]

Great! Then He calls the shots thus 'predestining you' Ephesians 2:10

I am VERY pleased you can give up scapegoating and crucifying Calvinists now, Robert. From now on, you need to ask for permission to start these threads, from Him, in prayer because HE OWNS YOU! Let HIM destinate you and stop being selfish and self-willed. Be Christ willed as your assertion states.
Zealousy without knowledge is haphazard and reckless, like the sons of thunder Christ corrected and stopped.

1 Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know ...that you are not your own?
1Corinthians 6:20 You were bought with a price.

He owns me because I gave myself to him. It was I and I alone that believed in Jesus. No one forced me to accept Christ as my savior. The Holy Spirit called and I said yes to Jesus. I came to Christ by my own free will.

I do not believe in robotism or puppetism. God gave me a brain and a free will and I excersized both and became a Christian.

 

[beloved57]

He owns me because I gave myself to him. It was I and I alone that believed in Jesus. No one forced me to accept Christ as my savior. The Holy Spirit called and I said yes to Jesus. I came to Christ by my own free will.

I do not believe in robotism or puppetism. God gave me a brain and a free will and I excersized both and became a Christian.

You don't even believe the Gospel! You don't believe that Christ death saved them He died for!