The Burning of Jerusalem

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Knock Knock...

Who's there?

John Calvin?

John Calvin Who?.....

Exactly!

Knock Knock

Who's there?

Jesus

Jesus who?

Um... you knocked, I was just opening the door for you... : )

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Yes. There is the earthly city of Jerusalem and the heavenly city called "New Jerusalem." Two distinct descriptions. One ungodly, the second godly.

That is the same as descriptions of Israel. Those cast off by God for unfaithfullness are the earthly, ungodly Israel. Those called to faith and salvation by the grace of God, are the redeemed and godly Israel.

Same thing with God's Covenant with mankind. The first (old) Covenant was one of works which does not save, and the second (New) is the Covenant of Grace that gives everlasting life to all the faithful and elect church body of Jesus Christ; Jew & Gentile.



There is one national Israel, but four definitions of "Israel." l. God's Son is named "Israel." Hosea 11:1, Matthew 2:15 2. The northern tribes of Israel were distinct from the tribes of Judah. 3. The ungodly citizens of Israel are distinguished from the remnant of faithful souls saved out of the nation. 4. Israel is the spiritual body of believers who abide by faith in Jesus Christ; the church of God; the New Jerusalem.

Galatians 4:21-31 reveals these descriptions and distinctions of the significance of Israel in the purposes of God.



God's enemies are not beloved. Ungodly souls are reprobate. Only the Elect in Christ are beloved by God, through Him.





Agreed. Many, but not all . . .




Agreed. MANY, but not all . . .



Exactly.



The Jewish election was temporal and national. Out of all the nations, the Jews were chosen by God to represent the Covenant promises of a Saviour. They were not elect unto salvation, for most of the nation of Jews proved to be reprobate and unfaithful to God, for they did not believe His promises. The nation of Israel suffered because of their sins and unbelief, not because they were elected to handle the holy ordinances amongst all the nations.

None of the remnant of Jews, saved by the grace of God, were cast away or rejected. They were reconciled to God according to election unto everlasting life, and gifted with belief in the promises of the Saviour. Romans 11:4-8

Jesus is God.

Ok

Jesus said Love your enemies

Ok

God is not duelistic

Ok

So Gods enemies are beloved by the God who said Love your enemies.

Say what?

Yup.... Wild huh?

 

[Nang]

Correct.
Even the verse in Romans is speaking of an inner Israel (the faithful) within the whole of Israel (faithful and unfaithful).
It's not some new Israel, but the same Israel it has always been that has both faithful and unfaithful within it.

This distinction is very similar to the point I am trying to make. It is an eternal distinction made for a remnant spiritually called out of the temporal nation of Israel.

Both during the Old Testament times and the New Testament times. This remnant of faithful and godly believers in totality will be saved. Romans 11:26-27

 

[Nang]

Jesus is God.

Ok

Jesus said Love your enemies

Ok

God is not duelistic

Ok

So Gods enemies are beloved by the God who said Love your enemies.

Say what?

Yup.... Wild huh?

God commands sinners to love their enemies, but where in Scripture does God reveal a love for His enemies? Rather, Scripture says God hates His enemies (e.g. Psalm 26:5), for the protection and good of His chosen people.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Yes. There is the earthly city of Jerusalem and the heavenly city called "New Jerusalem." Two distinct descriptions. One ungodly, the second godly.

That is the same as descriptions of Israel. Those cast off by God for unfaithfullness are the earthly, ungodly Israel. Those called to faith and salvation by the grace of God, are the redeemed and godly Israel.

Same thing with God's Covenant with mankind. The first (old) Covenant was one of works which does not save, and the second (New) is the Covenant of Grace that gives everlasting life to all the faithful and elect church body of Jesus Christ; Jew & Gentile.



There is one national Israel, but four definitions of "Israel." l. God's Son is named "Israel." Hosea 11:1, Matthew 2:15 2. The northern tribes of Israel were distinct from the tribes of Judah. 3. The ungodly citizens of Israel are distinguished from the remnant of faithful souls saved out of the nation. 4. Israel is the spiritual body of believers who abide by faith in Jesus Christ; the church of God; the New Jerusalem.

Galatians 4:21-31 reveals these descriptions and distinctions of the significance of Israel in the purposes of God.



God's enemies are not beloved. Ungodly souls are reprobate. Only the Elect in Christ are beloved by God, through Him.





Agreed. Many, but not all . . .




Agreed. MANY, but not all . . .



Exactly.



The Jewish election was temporal and national. Out of all the nations, the Jews were chosen by God to represent the Covenant promises of a Saviour. They were not elect unto salvation, for most of the nation of Jews proved to be reprobate and unfaithful to God, for they did not believe His promises. The nation of Israel suffered because of their sins and unbelief, not because they were elected to handle the holy ordinances amongst all the nations.

None of the remnant of Jews, saved by the grace of God, were cast away or rejected. They were reconciled to God according to election unto everlasting life, and gifted with belief in the promises of the Saviour. Romans 11:4-8

Now for the serious reply, though I was serious...

Go line by line to the recorded oratory of Paul in Romans 9 through 11. There is no question that Paul is talking about God honoring his promises to the hardened Jews and not the ones who accepted Christ.

It's in simple speech analytics. The direction and thrust remain positive towards the hardened Jews, though their earthly life is difficult because they are blind to the Messiah.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

God commands sinners to love their enemies, but where in Scripture does God reveal a love for His enemies? Rather, Scripture says God hates His enemies (e.g. Psalm 26:5), for the protection and good of His chosen people.

Did you say Psalm 26:5.... "hates his enemies for His chosen people"?

Shall we unpack that?

You are aware that that area of Psalms is highly prophetic and references things we are talking about here?

Care to geographically trace the 10 nations in Psalms 83 to modern day?

Very interesting outcome indeed. : )

 

[Nang]

Now for the serious reply, though I was serious...

Go line by line to the recorded oratory of Paul in Romans 9 through 11. There is no question that Paul is talking about God honoring his promises to the hardened Jews and not the ones who accepted Christ.

It's in simple speech analytics. The direction and thrust remain positive towards the hardened Jews, though their earthly life is difficult because they are blind to the Messiah.

I disagree. Romans 9 through 11 is all about a remnant chosen for salvation according to their election of grace. Romans 11:5 sums up the teaching of these chapters.

 

[Nang]

Did you say Psalm 26:5.... "hates his enemies for His chosen people"?

Shall we unpack that?

You are aware that that area of Psalms is highly prophetic and references things we are talking about here?

There will be no enemies of Jesus Christ sharing everlasting life with saved sinners in the New Jerusalem. Revelation 21:27

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

This distinction is very similar to the point I am trying to make. It is an eternal distinction made for a remnant spiritually called out of the temporal nation of Israel.

Both during the Old Testament times and the New Testament times. This remnant of faithful and godly believers in totality will be saved. Romans 11:26-27

But Nang,

The full number reference removes your theory from the table that it is referencing then and now.

This is a different number that encompasses rebels and saved alike. It is literal Israelites that reject Messiah for now, but will be set straight by mysterious events yet Unrevealed.

It seems that God has a plan for humanity past and to come that still involves literal Israelites.

Do you know the Romans 11 verse I'm referencing?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

There will be no enemies of Jesus Christ sharing everlasting life with saved sinners in the New Jerusalem. Revelation 21:27

Because this New Jerusalem occurs after the mystery is revealed.... Hasn't happened yet.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I disagree. Romans 9 through 11 is all about a remnant chosen for salvation according to their election of grace. Romans 11:5 sums up the teaching of these chapters.

Fair enough. You are disagreeing amicably, so I site your words as an alternate perspective and remain open to dialogue.

However, I retain the literal Israel perspective fully.

I can't emphasize enough how that interpretation replicates the very reason that God rebuked the Jews though.

God Loves all humanity and it is impossible to see that through the eyes of any elitist dogma.

This will be our perpetual impass.

 

[Tambora]

This distinction is very similar to the point I am trying to make.

No it is not.

It is an eternal distinction made for a remnant spiritually called out of the temporal nation of Israel.

Nope.
They are not 'called out of Israel", nor are they external from Israel.
They are still of Israel whether they are believers or unbelievers.
It's not a NEW Israel.
A faithful Jew is not a NEW Jew. He's the same Jew he always was.

Both during the Old Testament times and the New Testament times. This remnant of faithful and godly believers in totality will be saved. Romans 11:26-27

Romans 11 is not about a new Israel or a spiritual Israel. It's about the same Israel that has always been Israel.

The BOC is not Israel in any way shape or form.

 

[steko]

No it is not.

Nope.
They are not 'called out of Israel", nor are they external from Israel.
They are still of Israel whether they are believers or unbelievers.
It's not a NEW Israel.
A faithful Jew is not a NEW Jew. He's the same Jew he always was.


Romans 11 is not about a new Israel or a spiritual Israel. It's about the same Israel that has always been Israel.

The BOC is not Israel in any way shape or form.

:thumb: Rat on!

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

No it is not.

Nope.
They are not 'called out of Israel", nor are they external from Israel.
They are still of Israel whether they are believers or unbelievers.
It's not a NEW Israel.
A faithful Jew is not a NEW Jew. He's the same Jew he always was.


Romans 11 is not about a new Israel or a spiritual Israel. It's about the same Israel that has always been Israel.

The BOC is not Israel in any way shape or form.

Yup! On the mark that's on the mark!

# Bullseye

 

[Tambora]

God commands sinners to love their enemies, but where in Scripture does God reveal a love for His enemies? Rather, Scripture says God hates His enemies (e.g. Psalm 26:5), for the protection and good of His chosen people.

If only Nang would put down her Calvinism commentary and read the bible, she would have never said such a falsehood.

Romans 5:8 KJV
(8) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

If only Nang would put down her Calvinism commentary and read the bible, she would have never said such a falsehood.

Romans 5:8 KJV
(8) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

This is so utterly true it is sad.

George Washington turned down being more than president to prevent tyranny.

If only Calvin had written such a statement. It's almost as if the reformist has become a post humus theocrat.

His human perspective, flawed and frail as all humanity embraced as infallible truth. This is the woeful error of many.

 

[Tambora]

This is so utterly true it is sad.

George Washington turned down being more than president to prevent tyranny.

If only Calvin had written such a statement. It's almost as if the reformist has become a post humus theocrat.

Sometimes sad, and sometimes downright hilarious!
I'm glad you are one that does not fall for the Calvinist rhetoric.
For a cult that stresses "elect" so much, it's laughable how they attempt to make elect Israel a non-elect entity.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Sometimes sad, and sometimes downright hilarious!
I'm glad you are one that does not fall for the Calvinist rhetoric.
For a cult that stresses "elect" so much, it's laughable how they attempt to make elect Israel a non-elect entity.

I was exposed to the idea of post Christ prophets and "illuminating " writings.

It is absolutely scary that people trade the living WATER for a bitter copy, full of sour ill.

And yet... it is funny how many jump at the idea of being "better" than others.

 

[Nang]

No it is not.

Nope.
They are not 'called out of Israel", nor are they external from Israel.
They are still of Israel whether they are believers or unbelievers.
It's not a NEW Israel.
A faithful Jew is not a NEW Jew. He's the same Jew he always was.


Romans 11 is not about a new Israel or a spiritual Israel. It's about the same Israel that has always been Israel.

The BOC is not Israel in any way shape or form.

The BOC consists of all souls justified by faith in the Seed and Saviour Jesus Christ:

"Therefore know that only those who are of faith, are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, knowing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the Gospel to Abraham beforehand saying, 'in you all the nations shall be blessed.' . . . Now to Abraham and His Seed were the promises made. He does not say, 'And to seeds,' as of many, but as of one, 'And to your Seed,' who is Christ. . . For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ, have put on Christ. There is neither Jew or Greek . . For you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to promise ". From Galatians Chapter 3 (cp Galatians 4:21-31, Ephesians Chapter 2, John Chapter 3, Romans Chapters 9-11)

 

[Eagles Wings]

The BOC consists of all souls justified by faith in the Seed and Saviour Jesus Christ:

"Therefore know that only those who are of faith, are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, knowing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the Gospel to Abraham beforehand saying, 'in you all the nations shall be blessed.' . . . Now to Abraham and His Seed were the promises made. He does not say, 'And to seeds,' as of many, but as of one, 'And to your Seed,' who is Christ. . . For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ, have put on Christ. There is neither Jew or Greek . . For you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to promise ". From Galatians Chapter 3 (cp Galatians 4:21-31, Ephesians Chapter 2, John Chapter 3, Romans Chapters 9-11)

Your explanation of Scriptural truth is spot on.

Continued angst with Calvinism falls on death ears because you answer questions and post with the authority of the whole of Scripture.

I consider it a privilege to learn from you, AMR, nikolai, Lon.