The Bob Enyart Live forum

[1Way]

Apollo - God's criminal law was given with specific orders to have the same laws for anyone “in their land”, specifically including foreigners who apparently dwelt among them. So if any nation or territory were godly, they would faithfully incorporate God’s laws (not the symbolic ones, they have been replaced or fulfilled) for all within their dominion. If there was such a nation, their laws would only be in force for their own land, however, sometimes it’s right and good to forcibly export your righteous laws to other lands to the extent that loving your neighbor implores such a thing.

Occasionally mass atrocities occur, and if we know about it, and we could serve well to stop them, but we would be to some extent guilty by the sin of omission (or association) if we allowed it to continue without our meaningful opposition. To pick a few clear examples, it was good and righteous and good that the USA fought against Hitler’s communism (legislated theft, and after the fact, the Holocaust) and did what we did against the terrorist murderers in Afghanistan and Iraq in order to free millions of people from a torturous murderous government, and to make the “evil doer” afraid.

Ro 13:4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to [execute] wrath on him who practices evil.

 

[1Way]

Apollo – "Attention span" !

So I take it by your “response” that you have nothing reasonable nor non-childish to say about my pointed responses to your points. We understand, keeping up a tradition I suppose.

 

[1Way]

Apollo - I re-read your post 218, and then I read your post 220, and I have to ask myself, are you the same person?

I thought you honestly asked all those questions as though you honestly wanted the answers to them. But, when they are thoughtfully and respectfully provided, you not only disregard them out of hand, you attack the messenger instead.

May I just simply call you Mr. Two Face? How about Mr Duplicity? I wouldn’t call you a hypocrite, yet, because, I don’t know if you are simply putting on a silly show like a spoiled brat routine, or if you really understand how contradictory you are, or if just do not care about any of this or not, and so on and so forth.

But, don’t worry. If you keep this up, if you really try hard, and if it really fits, I guess we “can” call you Mr. Hypocrite, it’s just that I’m not sure you’re ready for it just yet.

 

[Apollo]

Like I care what you call me.

I’m reacting to you. You’ve already lost this argument.

You attempted to defend Enyart’s position that fornication is a crime under biblical law, and all you could produce were virgin bride price laws. Every question I’ve asked has been ignored. Every argument I’ve made has fallen on deaf ears. You’d rather talk about my bad language, how I raise my kids, my keyword search skills, Pauline theology, and Adolph Hitler.

As far as I know, I've addressed every question you've asked. Following is a sampling of questions you’ve ignored. Deal with them, or we’re finished here:

Is the Law of God THE LAW, or a guideline?

If the Law is to be taken literally in its original application, how can it be taken “literally” in a secondary application?

Should men be allowed to kiss in public in a “biblical society”?

What are “concubines,” if not sanctified “prostitutes”?

Show us in Scripture where prostitution is a “crime.”

Provide anecdotal evidence that prostitution was punished as a crime.

What criminal penalty was assigned to prostitution?

Was the Old Testament institution of concubinage lawful or unlawful?

What is the “job description” of a concubine?

Is having sex with a concubine “fornication” or “sexually immoral”?

What practical and lawful difference is there between a concubine, a mistress, and a prostitute?

If virgin bride price laws are valid today, and indentured servitude laws are valid today, in what way is it "unlawful" or “immoral” to keep concubines?

Did Abraham commit a sex crime when he took Hagar?

Did Solomon commit a sex crime when he took his concubines?

What was the legal status of concubinage after the giving of the law?

Isn’t prostitution (assuming adultery isn’t involved) just a “twist” on fornication?

If fornication, concubinage, and prostitution were not crimes under Old Testament biblical law, how can they be crimes in the New Testament era?

What’s the going price for virgins in 21st century America?

What “price” do we put on our daughter’s virginity?

What role does "theonomy" play in Open Theism?

Do Open View theologians advocate the introduction of Old Testament law into the modern day penal code?

Are adultery and virgin bride price laws related to “sex” crimes, or “property” crimes?

Please produce one jot of Scripture where God commanded the criminalization of consensual sex between non-virgin, unmarried adults.

Where in Scripture is unlicensed sex between consenting, unmarried adults a “crime”?

 

[1Way]

Apollo – You said

You attempted to defend Enyart’s position that fornication is a crime under biblical law, and all you could produce were virgin bride price laws. Every question I’ve asked has been ignored. Every argument I’ve made has fallen on deaf ears. You’d rather talk about my bad language, how I raise my kids, my keyword search skills, Pauline theology, and Adolph Hitler.

Not true, I both admitted that my initial position was insufficiently informed, and I suggested that it is possible that by logical extension, fornication might be considered a crime, and I asked you to provide examples of you ruling that out, but you apparently have not investigated that avenue.

Yet another possibility
Again this may or may not apply to Bob’s approach. I never claimed to understand specifically how he holds that fornication should be illegal, maybe you will stop your unrealistic charges against me. Probably not, but it is worth a try.

Does God have the right to change the laws and commands especially with dispensational changes?

Yes, He even changed the law over the death penalty and the bible expresses Him changing the dietary laws about a handful of times. So I think it is very possible that there is more in the meaning of what would the laws be if it were goverened by a godly nation than what you assume. For example, when God governs this earth, He will outlaw evil as God can even judge the heart, so in part Bob may be inferring the most godly rule when Jesus presides over all.

Again, I don’t sufficiently understand Bob’s position nor scripture’s position in order to answer so many questions with so much certainty. And since the beginning I have said this, and I repeatedly made this humble admission, yet despite my doing so, you act as though it’s ok for you to not have answer to my questions, but if I don’t answer all your questions, I’m to be held with contempt.

You want to know if men should be able to hold hands in public. If its for work or play or prayer or any other righteous or amoral issue, why would anyone care? But I don’t think you are that daft, you infer the promotion of homosexualperversiongrossness. Your crooked moral compase just got more crooked.

It's a crime to promote or willfully support criminal activity. If you support communism in this dispensation, your implicated in nationwide thievery and may be guilty of compromising and obstructing national defense in so doing. If you lie in order to protect a murder in a court of law, you are guilty of a capitol offense. Guilt by direct criminal association and or willful support is an unambiguous righteous bible teaching.

The truth matters. But if you can’t hand with the truth, then run, run, run away! Just don’t run like a sissy girly man.

 

[Granite]

1Way, the guy tapping out in this discussion is you. Until you can answer Apollo's questions this conversation's done, far as I'm concerned.

 

[Apollo]

You are, apparently, TOL’s sacrificial lamb in this discussion. You refuse to answer direct questions and expect me to do your homework, and your thinking, for you. I gave you a list of two dozen questions I’ve already asked and, again, you ignored them.

Fornication and prostitution are not crimes under biblical law. There is no law, no case law, no penalty, and no anecdotal evidence of this “law” ever being applied.

What question haven’t I answered? No doubt, you’ll ignore this question, too.

He even changed the law over the death penalty

.

Where? When? In what way? (More questions you can ignore.)

You want to know if men should be able to hold hands in public.

Never said anything about holding hands.

It's a crime to promote or willfully support criminal activity. If you support communism in this dispensation, your implicated in nationwide thievery and may be guilty of compromising and obstructing national defense in so doing.

Being a Communist is not a crime. Communists have run for President. It’s certainly not a “crime” under biblical law. You know less about politics than biblical law, if that’s possible.

If you lie in order to protect a murder in a court of law, you are guilty of a capitol offense. Guilt by direct criminal association and or willful support is an unambiguous righteous bible teaching.

Perjury is a crime under biblical law. In our case, first you have to demonstrate that fornication and prostitution are “crimes.” You can’t, or you would have.

Again, I don’t sufficiently understand Bob’s position nor scripture’s position in order to answer so many questions with so much certainty.

Then, as you’ve proven, you are unqualified to debate the point.

You have no support, even from your fellow ditto-heads. You have been hung out to dry.

 

[1Way]

I have no problem dealing with questions that I can answer, and I have no problem waiting for answers and understanding for issues that I do not already have answers for.

But I think most of the list that was just levied against me concerns issues that I already addressed by mostly be admitting that I have more questions about them than I do answers, yet Apollo wants to condemn and disregard me out of hand for not having the answers.

And just because I asked questions of him (and you) that have not been answered, does not mean he is disqualified to discuss these issues. What does tend to make discussions really unproductive, is when you correct someone, and they will not stand corrected. What’s the point in having a discussion if someone argued something as airtight as 1+1=2, and the other person can not agree to such a fact?

We are not here to promote our personal subjective opinions, we are here to engage in a bible discussion over matters fornication and godly law, and several variations on that theme.

I have no problem admitting that Bob Enyart might be wrong on this exact issue. That is how little I know about

1) His exact view
2) What the bible teaches

about this exact issue. I once found Bob to be in error on one of his teachings, not so much because he simply wrong and was headed in the wrong direction, but because he was right but had simply took the teaching a bit further than he should have.

But we quickly worked it out and he graciously thanked me for helping him not go too far with that particular teaching. I found Bob to be extremely humble and willing to stand corrected once sufficient biblical grounds were made clear. It was no harder to have his appreciation for the correction than it was smiling and shaking a friend’s hand.

Apollo was caught living a very bad example with his own family, and you said that the bible does not even condemn fornication anywhere and I showed you how you were wrong, and I’m still waiting for both of you to stand corrected.

 

[Granite]

"Apollo was caught living a very bad example with his own family, and you said that the bible does not even condemn fornication anywhere and I showed you how you were wrong, and I’m still waiting for both of you to stand corrected."

First things first: challenging Apollo's homelife degrades the discussion and is a cheap, sleazy, and cowardly tactic. Or should we start dissecting what you do under your roof? That you take your cues from a thrice-married convicted child abuser might explain things.

1Way, it's one thing to be an overbearing stuffed shirt; another to judge a man's family life. For the sake of common courtesy, don't go there again.

The Bible does not condemn fornication between two unmarried, grown adults. Period. You cannot and will not show that scripture condemns this activity. You have lost this point and you should concede as much. Get over yourself.

 

[1Way]

Apollo – I admitted that I was mistaken about prostitution being illegal. And now I admit that I mistook your example about two men doing something intimate in public. I told you that I am homophobic and I just can’t stand the thought of two men ...

I did not mean to misrepresent you, it was a simple oversight.

As to communism, it is a form of socialism that abolishes private ownership. God does not authorize such tyranny from human government, and He does not allow steeling the right of private ownership. Being a communist is a crime according to God’s word. If you have no arguments against mine, then obviously your view is either insubstantial or just plane wrong. And I was not changing the subject to it being a crime in America, we were supposedly talking about what God considers is a crime or not.

In our case about perjury, I was responding to you homo allusion bit. I’m not saying that they should be put to death, but if they are complicit with the crime, then they should be held accountable. Again, I am willing to consider the matter about fornication further, but pressing me to answer something that I do not have an answer for will do no one any good.

You said

(1) Then, as you’ve proven, you are unqualified to debate the point.

(2) You have no support, even from your fellow ditto-heads. You have been hung out to dry.

(1) Right, I’m willing to peruse learning and study on the issue.

(2) Wrong, I am not without any support as my challenge to you has yet to be answered for example. I am no more hung out to dry than you are for not standing corrected for treating your own children as though they are not saved brethren, and for not having a response to my observation that since God changes laws especially between dispensations, He might do so again based on established biblical principles. So we are hardly out of the woods yet. Plus there is a far cry between

not having sufficient information to make a particular argument,

and giving in to another simply because it is in opposition to that argument.

You might be right that Enyart is (to some extent) wrong, but you might be wrong about “how” and “why” and you might be really wrong about what you currently think is right instead. By what you have displayed so far, your biblical understanding is more condemning of you than it is affirming you. You are right in that we should not overstep scripture, funny thing is that Bob Enyart teaches the same thing too, but ended up opposing you on this issue. Because of so much ignorance about why and how Bob holds the view that fornication should be a crime and not just a sin, and more importantly, what does the bible teach on that particular issue, until the truth becomes better dealt with, I will hold out judgment on the matter. I am not willing to do as you have done and rashly judge a matter that is not sufficiently understood.

 

[1Way]

Granite – If the debate is a math problem, over say calculus or trig, but one of the debaters messes up on a fundamental law that effectively undermines practically all of mathematics, then failure to make clear notice of such a thing would be irresponsible at best.

Don’t mistake my observation of his wrongdoing as being inappropriate or as being non-responsive. He rightly applied the example as being congruent to the discussion at hand, but he was found in direct violation with God’s word as to how he handled the situation, and he has yet to stand corrected about it. I teach and believe what the bible teaches about judging others, so don’t go there.

So this observation about Apollo allowing his own children to commit fornication without disowning/rejecting/shunning them, does two main things. (1) Attacks his credibility as an authority for biblical correctness, and (2) Exposes a significant lack of objectivity and personal humility for standing corrected. Many people have even many problems, ok, so he messed up pretty badly with matters of great importance that relate pretty directly to the issue at had. Ok, so have a lot of people. Live and learn and move on already. Or must I become a stuffed shirt judgmental pretentious je_lly fish like you?

I gave you a large list from the bible that of uses of the word fornication. I put forth two basic assumptions about that list. They are:

1. Those uses of fornication involved teachings about fornication (however direct or indirect)
2. They unilaterally condemn fornication (however direct or indirect).

Since giving you this evidence that your claim is wrong, you have decided to repeat your claim. Oooo, my, how convincing. I await your response over my point of refutation of your claim that the bible does not condemn fornication. If you do not respond against the refutation, your claim stands refuted by the many bible examples that condemn fornication.

 

[Apollo]

Moving this to Limits of the Law (General Theology).

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by granite1010

First things first: challenging Apollo's homelife degrades the discussion and is a cheap, sleazy, and cowardly tactic. Or should we start dissecting what you do under your roof? That you take your cues from a thrice-married convicted child abuser might explain things.

You violate your own rule. :nono:

 

[Bob Enyart]

Late night at the office

Late night at the office

Hello to whoever may be snooping around in this old thread. Bob Enyart here. Hey, it's the 28th day of the month, and the last night of our February '05 telethon, and we're within 18% of our goal. So I'm staying in the office until midnight eastern time in case anyone wants to call in at 800-8Enyart. Thanks! (it's rather quiet here, sort of like the Maytag repairman syndrome.) -Bob

 

[Wamba]

He lives! Thanks for the visit, Bob!

 

[Lucky]

I was looking at kgov and I saw they added something for iPod owners. Thought I'd post the info here.

http://www.kgov.com/feeds/podcast.html

Easy Steps to Setup Your KGOV Podcast

1. Download and install the podcast receiver software from iPodder.

2. Add the KGOV podcast by doing the following:
* Select the Subscriptions tab.
* Select Tools > Add a Feed... from the top menu.
* Enter the address http://www.kgov.com/feeds/podcast.xml into the URL textbox and click the Save button.

3. Select the "KGOV Radio Podcast" feed in the top window, this will download the latest episode in the bottom window.

4. Set it up to automatically download the new shows by doing the following:
* Select Tools > Scheduler... from the top menu.
* Click the Enable scheduler checkbox.
* From here you can setup automatic downloads at specific times or regular intervals.

iPodder is open source software.

 

[Bob Enyart]

We did a show today titled, Denver Post hires Jason Blair, under pen name Keith W. Swain.
If you are inclined to, please email a suggestion to listen to this show to Gary Clark, the Denver Post managing editor at gclark@denverpost.com.

Thanks! -Bob

 

[SOTK]

Howdy Bob! :wave:

 

[Bob Enyart]

Moderator: Absolute Power Doesn't Absolutely Corrupt

Moderator: Absolute Power Doesn't Absolutely Corrupt

Now that I'm a moderator in the BEL forum, I'm going to urge people replying to *specific program threads* and *specific BEL topical threads* to keep their comments related to those threads. Other posts may be deleted. Of course, an unrelated comment or question inside an actually germane post is fine. But posts that simply go to somebody's obsession or that introduce an irrelevant topic, might find themselves deleted. Why? I am going to try to begin a greater integration of the radio show and this forum. So we might get more people visiting here to post or read comments regarding specific topics. And the more drift wood they have to climb over, the less likely they will find what they're looking for at that moment, and the more likely they'll just move on.

 

[sentientsynth]

Query for Bob

Query for Bob

Dear Bob,

Since I have began listening your archived KGOV shows, I have enjoyed listening and learning from you. Just today, I was surprised by a certain position that you took and was wondering if I could ask you about it in more detail. Ought I start a new thread or may I ask it here in this one?

the Sentient Synthesizer