Taxation Is Theft

[kiwimacahau]

There is a proper role for government. It does and should provide services that are of value to its citizens (e.g. protection from hostile enemy states, protection from criminals and providing for a free and fair exchange of goods and services between citizens (i.e. enforcement of both criminal and civil law) and the building and maintenance of infrastructure pertinent to the provision of such governmental services (i.e. currency, roads, bridges, information networks, power grids, etc). It is, therefore, proper that the citizens finance the provision of those services since they derive the primary benefit from them. Therefore, the concept of taxes, in and of itself, is not theft. It is, in fact, the way a society is financed.

HOWEVER! Robin Hood was/is a thief! It is not a proper role of government to be Robin Hood, taking money from the rich and giving it to the poor, the end result of which is that everyone ends up poor. It is government welfare that is theft. In fact, most of what modern governments do with the taxes they collect is indeed theft. Welfare, national parks, most of what the EPA, IRS, FEMA, et al. does is theft and the Dept. of Education and other such governmental agencies should not even exist at all - and so on and so forth.

The principle is quite simple. No one has a right to any good or service that is produced by someone else. Goods and services are the property of those who produce them and it is their right to use or dispose of that property in any manner they see fit that does not infringe on the rights of others. This is because the only way to produce such property is through the expense of one's own time and energy which is the expenditure of one's life. Private property rights are, therefore, an extension of the right to life and unjust taxation is not merely theft, it is slavery.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Taxation is not theft and, if you're a Christian or Jew, the bible does not support that idea. Taxation came about simply because it is more efficient to tax everyone a reasonable amount to cover public works and infrastructure BUT it behooves everyone to actually pay their taxes honestly and not use loopholes in the law to avoid it.

 

[Daniel1769]

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Of course they do pay for it. What do you think they pay the police force and judges with, banana cream pie?

The only reason people are willing to do the job of policing or firefighting or presiding over a court or whatever other proper roles of government people fulfill is because they can get paid for doing it. And they should get paid for the expenditure of their time and effort (i.e. their life) just as anyone else should. Who's going to pay it if there are no taxes, Santa Claus?

I agree with you that the amount and form of taxes we pay in this country is ridiculous and does indeed amount to governmental stealing but it's a bridge too far to go from that premise to declare all taxation to be theft.

Notice that you've not made a single argument to support your claim. The closest you've come to doing so is to quote a principle out of one of my posts. Do you have anything at all to support your contention, or are you just bloviating? Make an argument or learn something and change your position.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Do you have the right to take money from someone at gun point and use it t fund something else, no matter how noble your cause may be? No, you don't. Can you give that right to your friend? Can you and ten friends vote to give that right to a mutual friend? If not, then how did the government get these rights? How did you delegate a right that you don't have?

Further, the police could be funded voluntarily. Further still, some people are ok with defending themselves and their communities, and are being forced at gun point to pay for thing YOU want. And even further still, the police writing out speeding tickets and arresting pot smokers isn't protecting anyone's rights; it's trampling on them. And that's the vast majority of what police do. They arrested more people for marijuana possession last year than for all violent crimes combined. They spend even more time writing traffic tickets, hiding, just hoping to catch one breaking the traffic laws.

YOU, sir, are the one that hasn't proven your point. You are making the claim that it is justified to steal if you work for government, and that somehow being stolen from is a right that we should cherish. If taxes are funding such noble things, then why do you have to threaten people at gunpoint to pay them? Saint Jude's doesn't threaten people for donations and they receive a lot of money. Forcing people to pay money, no matter how noble your cause, it is theft and extortion.

 

[Clete]

Taxation is not theft and, if you're a Christian or Jew, the bible does not support that idea. Taxation came about simply because it is more efficient to tax everyone a reasonable amount to cover public works and infrastructure BUT it behooves everyone to actually pay their taxes honestly and not use loopholes in the law to avoid it.

Our government is systematically stealing money from people who have a lot of it to give it to people who didn't earn it (and couldn't do so if they tried) in exchange for votes which they aren't even guaranteed to get.

In this country, with this fundamentally unjust tax system, people ought not pay one dime more than the law requires them to pay.

 

[Clete]

Do you have the right to take money from someone at gun point and use it t fund something else, no matter how noble your cause may be? No, you don't. Can you give that right to your friend? Can you and ten friends vote to give that right to a mutual friend? If not, then how did the government get these rights? How did you delegate a right that you don't have?

Hey! An actual argument. Very good!

Your error comes from an incorrect assumption. Government does not derive its power from the people governed, it derives it from God. Government is God's idea and your argument here is not against taxes, it's against government as a whole.

Further, the police could be funded voluntarily.

By what right?

Just as I do not have the right to take my neighbor's property at gun point, I also don't have the right to imprison or otherwise punish them for committing a crime. By your own argument, neither I nor ten of my friends can vote to give that right to a mutual friend.

You are arguing in favor of anarchy.

Further still, some people are ok with defending themselves and their communities, and are being forced at gun point to pay for thing YOU want. And even further still, the police writing out speeding tickets and arresting pot smokers isn't protecting anyone's rights; it's trampling on them. And that's the vast majority of what police do. They arrested more people for marijuana possession last year than for all violent crimes combined. They spend even more time writing traffic tickets, hiding, just hoping to catch one breaking the traffic laws.

Do you want to debate the merits of specific laws like drug use, public intoxication, and traffic regulations or do you want to discuss whether governments have the right to tax people for the services they render?

Is it actually your argument that it is not a proper role of government to protect the citizen from criminals and from hostile enemy nations and to otherwise protect the interests of the nation as a whole?

YOU, sir, are the one that hasn't proven your point. You are making the claim that it is justified to steal if you work for government, and that somehow being stolen from is a right that we should cherish. If taxes are funding such noble things, then why do you have to threaten people at gunpoint to pay them? Saint Jude's doesn't threaten people for donations and they receive a lot of money. Forcing people to pay money, no matter how noble your cause, it is theft and extortion.

Just because a nation taxes its citizens unjustly does not argue against taxation in general. Just because this same country enforces its tax code unjustly also does not argue against taxation in general.

And yes, I have proven my point! You've responded to my argument by repeating your position and by jumping all the way from arguing against taxes to arguing against the existence of the whole government! You can make the argument for anarchy if that's what you believe but if it isn't what you believe then you have to finance the government somehow. And since you claim to be a bible believing Christian then you'd be stupid to disagree with the God who instituted the whole concept of human government and wrote a large portion of the Old Testament explaining how that government should function. In short, if government is unjust, so is the God you claim to worship and if government is just then so are taxes because it's gotta be financed somehow.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nick M]

Where in the bible does it say taxes are theft?

It doesn't. It is what you do with the taxes that is immoral. They exist to fund the government to wield the sword of justice against the wicked, and to build roads and bridges.

 

[nikolai_42]

Taking money from one person, with the threat of violence, and giving it to another is theft. Demanding money at the penalty of prison or worse, is extortion. Even if you were to rob someone, yet mow their lawn for them and claim your theft was payment for the service you provided, it would still be robbery. If you and a few of your friends voted to give a mutual friend the right to steal from someone else, it would still be theft. If you picketed someone's pocket and gave the money to charity, it is still stealing.

Taxation, therefore, is theft and extortion.

Where does scripture say taxation is theft?

 

[nikolai_42]

Do you have the right to take money from someone at gun point and use it t fund something else, no matter how noble your cause may be? No, you don't. Can you give that right to your friend? Can you and ten friends vote to give that right to a mutual friend? If not, then how did the government get these rights? How did you delegate a right that you don't have?

What money do you use to buy things?

 

[ok doser]

It doesn't. It is what you do with the taxes that is immoral. They exist to fund the government to wield the sword of justice against the wicked, and to build roads and bridges.

daniel reminds me of john cleese:

 

[Nick M]

Notice that you've not made a single argument to support your claim.

He has repeated his claim. And that counts in internet logic land.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Bump for Libertarian Daniel:

Walter Block wrote a book on privatizing roads and highways, I assume he has ideas on how to privatize other much needs things like police and fire services.

Care to share Block's view on those subjects Dan, or are you just another Libertarian who complains but doesn't have viable solutions to the things you complain about?

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?122063-Taxation-Is-Theft&p=4878646&viewfull=1#post4878646

 

[Town Heretic]

Taking money from one person, with the threat of violence, and giving it to another is theft. Demanding money at the penalty of prison or worse, is extortion. Even if you were to rob someone, yet mow their lawn for them and claim your theft was payment for the service you provided, it would still be robbery. If you and a few of your friends voted to give a mutual friend the right to steal from someone else, it would still be theft. If you picketed someone's pocket and gave the money to charity, it is still stealing.

Taxation, therefore, is theft and extortion.

Theft is not paying taxes, taking the benefits derived while attempting to avoid payment for services rendered. Extortion and theft are the taking of that to which you have no legal or ethical claim. That's not the case here.

 

[annabenedetti]

Theft is not paying taxes, taking the benefits derived while attempting to avoid payment for services rendered. Extortion and theft are the taking of that to which you have no legal or ethical claim. That's not the case here.

Somehow I doubt he'd refuse to call 911 if he had a medical emergency. Or avoid driving on roads or walking on sidewalks, or crossing bridges or collecting his mail or thanking members of the military for their service, or...

 

[Daniel1769]

Theft is not paying taxes, taking the benefits derived while attempting to avoid payment for services rendered. Extortion and theft are the taking of that to which you have no legal or ethical claim. That's not the case here.

So if I come to your house and mow your lawns and wash your car without your permission, and then I just help myself to whatever money you have lying around, it's not theft because you received a service?

 

[ok doser]

So if I come to your house ...

by driving on the roads you don't want to help pay for?

 

[Daniel1769]

Somehow I doubt he'd refuse to call 911 if he had a medical emergency. Or avoid driving on roads or walking on sidewalks, or crossing bridges or collecting his mail or thanking members of the military for their service, or...

All of these can be funded voluntarily and run more efficiently by the private sector. Because you don't want them to be run that way is no excuse for you to take money from someone else to fund it.

 

[Clete]

So if I come to your house and mow your lawns and wash your car without your permission, and then I just help myself to whatever money you have lying around, it's not theft because you received a service?

The lack of consent is what makes your hypothetical not work.

Once again, you implicitly argue against the existence of government in general. Not only that but you do so with arguments I've seen before from actual anarchists.

Are you an anarchist?

 

[ok doser]

All of these can be funded voluntarily and run more efficiently by the private sector.

bridges, military, interstate highways


support your claim that these can be funded voluntarily and run more efficiently by the private sector.



most persuasive would be a citation of a country that does it that way, successfully

 

[Daniel1769]

Bump for Libertarian Daniel:

Walter Block wrote a book on privatizing roads and highways, I assume he has ideas on how to privatize other much needs things like police and fire services.

Care to share Block's view on those subjects Dan, or are you just another Libertarian who complains but doesn't have viable solutions to the things you complain about?

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?122063-Taxation-Is-Theft&p=4878646&viewfull=1#post4878646

I'm not really interested in his views, but all of those things can be done more efficiently if funded voluntarily and handled privately.

1. Roads
The government already hires private contractors to actually build the roads. The middle man can be cut out and people can voluntarily fund roads. Businesses also have a vested interest in having roads so that they can ship product, allow customers and employees to get to their business, etc. This roads argument is the worst argument for a monstrous bureaucratic nightmare of government with a 90% tax.

2. Police
If the only laws we had were the necessary laws prohibiting violence and theft, this would be simple to solve. Communities could voluntarily fund the hire of a private security firm like many private entities do. If the company were not providing a good service, they could be fired and replaced by a better firm. It also probably wouldn't be difficult to get the citizens of a community to volunteer to help keep their communities safe, if we had the well armed citizenry that we were intended to by the founders, which government prohibits.

3. Fire fighters
Many fire companies are all volunteer already. They all could be, or they could be voluntarily funded.

These solutions would make every service much more efficient. If it were funded by voluntary contributions, there would be much less waste because there would be a limited budget. As it stands, government has an unlimited budget because they can just raise taxes, borrow, or print money. The public debt will never come under control.

The fact is that YOU think it is okay to steal from others to fund what YOU want. If your ideas are so great, why do they have to be mandatory? Shouldn't people be rushing to support your causes? Would you not contribute to any worthy cause if government didn't have a gun to your head?

The fact is, your system of government run services funded by extortion has failed miserably. The debt incurred is insurmountable, and your institutions are ALWAYS in debt no matter how much money they bring in. They are entirely inefficient and can only be defended by childish emotional pleas.

 

[Daniel1769]

bridges, military, interstate highways


support your claim that these can be funded voluntarily and run more efficiently by the private sector.



most persuasive would be a citation of a country that does it that way, successfully

So you consider is "successful" that the government has created an insurmountable debt and is ALWAYS broke no matter how much money they bring in?

 

[Daniel1769]

The lack of consent is what makes your hypothetical not work.

Once again, you implicitly argue against the existence of government in general. Not only that but you do so with arguments I've seen before from actual anarchists.

Are you an anarchist?

But the lack of consent is okay when government does it?