Stop ! Don't shoot !

[deborah]

Deborah, I enjoy your posts. This is a noisy forum, just tune out the background noise.

If you have any questions, I'll be happy to answer them.

Thankyou would really like to chat , but I think I already know the answers to my questions, at least the ones the majority of christians would give me .
I do believe in the almighty creator , and that he sent his son as a messenger to this world to show us how to live and love . But I'm done with church life , and such doctrines that have christians at each others throat .
And as I mentioned earlier as much as sometimes I want to I just can no longer whole heartedly say that the bible is the very word of God .
I wish sometimes I could have the faith I once had , believing it no matter what . But I was tired with my questions being met with such things as , "God moves in mysterious ways " and "His ways are higher than ours " . Basically meaning they don't know either . But I feel my God (yes I said mine ) wants me to search and know . If you have anything that can make me take a second look I would appreciate it .



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[patrick jane]

The Baptist in me (and the answer closer to what you want to hear) says you have to accept Jesus Christ as your lord and saviour , that he died on the cross to save me from my sins , that he rose again 3 days later and is now at the right hand of his father preparing a place for me . I was also part of the osas crew .


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Do you still believe that?

 

[deborah]

Do you still believe that?

I think that is the very struggle I'm going through . Of course I believe Jesus is the son of God . That he was persecuted for his "out there teachings" suffered and died and that he overcame death and is with his father .
The bit I have trouble with is the jumping through hoops to earn something I believe God (being loving and compassionate, and not to sound arrogant) wants to give to us all freely .
Of the course the believing in Jesus part is easy , its the being saved bit , saves from what ? I do not believe in hell fire , I do not believe that going to church every week , or wearing certain clothes or daily bible reading will make me a better Christian .


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[deborah]

Shalom.

I both observe the 613 Commandments of Torah and believe there is a new covenant for the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

Do you trust the words of Jesus? I do. Many Bibles have red letters for Jesus' words. I say this to help you in your answer or response.

Shalom.

Jacob

Wow that's a lot of commandments. I'm afraid I will sound ignorant if I even try and comment about covenants of the Old Testament and the house of Israel and what that means for the future . It is not something I have studied in any detail , but would enjoy learning .
As for the words in red , I can't honestly have 100% faith that these are the words of Jesus . Of course the original scriptures would not have changed in colour to support his words even they were written many years after Jesus . So how logically can new translations claim they were the very words of Jesus .


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[patrick jane]

I think that is the very struggle I'm going through . Of course I believe Jesus is the son of God . That he was persecuted for his "out there teachings" suffered and died and that he overcame death and is with his father .
The bit I have trouble with is the jumping through hoops to earn something I believe God (being loving and compassionate, and not to sound arrogant) wants to give to us all freely .
Of the course the believing in Jesus part is easy , its the being saved bit , saves from what ? I do not believe in hell fire , I do not believe that going to church every week , or wearing certain clothes or daily bible reading will make me a better Christian .


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I you ever believed and trusted 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV - then you are saved whether you go to church etc. or not. I also struggle with eternal torment and hellfire, but the Bible clearly tells us there is punishment and weeping, gnashing

 

[patrick jane]

I think that is the very struggle I'm going through . Of course I believe Jesus is the son of God . That he was persecuted for his "out there teachings" suffered and died and that he overcame death and is with his father .
The bit I have trouble with is the jumping through hoops to earn something I believe God (being loving and compassionate, and not to sound arrogant) wants to give to us all freely .
Of the course the believing in Jesus part is easy , its the being saved bit , saves from what ? I do not believe in hell fire , I do not believe that going to church every week , or wearing certain clothes or daily bible reading will make me a better Christian .


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I also have many questions that nobody can answer but I let those go and trust God

 

[deborah]

I also have many questions that nobody can answer but I let those go and trust God

I would class myself as "saved" , I am a spiritual being, part of something bigger and more wonderful than I can comprehend . Im trying to go back to that wonderful moment when I realised the awesomeness of God and the wonderful possibilities he gave me through his son .
It only when I let doctrines in the way , heaven and hell, trinity , Holy Spirit , gifts of the spirit , who should be doing what job , women in the church etc etc that it all becomes crazy and not what God wanted us to be spending our time worrying about .


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[marhig]

Thankyou would really like to chat , but I think I already know the answers to my questions, at least the ones the majority of christians would give me .
I do believe in the almighty creator , and that he sent his son as a messenger to this world to show us how to live and love . But I'm done with church life , and such doctrines that have christians at each others throat .
And as I mentioned earlier as much as sometimes I want to I just can no longer whole heartedly say that the bible is the very word of God .
I wish sometimes I could have the faith I once had , believing it no matter what . But I was tired with my questions being met with such things as , "God moves in mysterious ways " and "His ways are higher than ours " . Basically meaning they don't know either . But I feel my God (yes I said mine ) wants me to search and know . If you have anything that can make me take a second look I would appreciate it .



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To me it's simple, believe in Jesus and his gospel, follow him, have faith and live by the will of God, putting him before ourselves.

It's a way that Jesus himself walked and he is our example to follow

Can I ask what questions you asked that were met with "God works in mysterious ways?"If you want the share it that is?

 

[marhig]

I think that is the very struggle I'm going through . Of course I believe Jesus is the son of God . That he was persecuted for his "out there teachings" suffered and died and that he overcame death and is with his father .
The bit I have trouble with is the jumping through hoops to earn something I believe God (being loving and compassionate, and not to sound arrogant) wants to give to us all freely .
Of the course the believing in Jesus part is easy , its the being saved bit , saves from what ? I do not believe in hell fire , I do not believe that going to church every week , or wearing certain clothes or daily bible reading will make me a better Christian .


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It's being saved from this world of sin and death.

And God does want to give to us freely, but we can't expect to just live as we please and God just give give give can we?

And what do you think hell fire is?

 

[deborah]

To me it's simple, believe in Jesus and his gospel, follow him, have faith and live by the will of God, putting him before ourselves.

It's a way that Jesus himself walked and he is our example to follow

Can I ask what questions you asked that were met with "God works in mysterious ways?"If you want the share it that is?

I believe so too , I think it really is that simple . Even though some might think I'm being naive , and in this world today I understand why .
Lots of things really , the Old Testament being full of war and killings and raping and taking of women . The many so called sacrifices of innocent animals that apparently God loved the smell of . Two stories (that I know of ) where parents were willing to kill their children as thought it would appease God . How badly women were treated (old and new ) , the condoning of slavery ... I could go on but I think you get the gist .
Now I could either do what I always used to do , not fully understand but trust anyway because although God is love he if he kills its righteous as he is the perfect judge . Or I can look at it logically , and say the barbaric things that are described in the bible are not what God wanted or condoned at all , and that although the bible is a fantastic representation of history back then and a glimpse into what people did as a result of their beliefs , it's is ultimately a book written by men .
Not saying it's useless there are many wonderful things I take from the bible , especially the gospels , and when you really study you can see God you just have to wipe away mans fingerprint .



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[deborah]

It's being saved from this world of sin and death.

And God does want to give to us freely, but we can't expect to just live as we please and God just give give give can we?

And what do you think hell fire is?

I believe this world will pass away and all the evil in it weather I believe it or not . Who qualifies to enter paradise in the next life isn't my session to make . What I do know ,like you said is that we cannot expect to treat this earth the people on it and the creator himself with such disregard without penalty, whatever that may look like .
God has given me a life for which I am grateful and and an earth to live it on . Bit from there on in I believe it is my job to live it accordingly with the best that I have been given . We all have wonderful amazing gifts that I believe God has given us to aid us and others in life .
I do not believe in the fiery flames of hell , I have done lots of study in the past as both of my parents have passed away . God would not create such an evil place for something we He himself had made .


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[deborah]

As for death , no one escapes that . I think it's the one thing we all fear and go through regardless of faith nor beliefs . That I think is the punishment we go through . But like Jesus foreshadowed it can and will be overcome x


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[marhig]

I believe so too , I think it really is that simple . Even though some might think I'm being naive , and in this world today I understand why .
Lots of things really , the Old Testament being full of war and killings and raping and taking of women . The many so called sacrifices of innocent animals that apparently God loved the smell of . Two stories (that I know of ) where parents were willing to kill their children as thought it would appease God . How badly women were treated (old and new ) , the condoning of slavery ... I could go on but I think you get the gist .
Now I could either do what I always used to do , not fully understand but trust anyway because although God is love he if he kills its righteous as he is the perfect judge . Or I can look at it logically , and say the barbaric things that are described in the bible are not what God wanted or condoned at all , and that although the bible is a fantastic representation of history back then and a glimpse into what people did as a result of their beliefs , it's is ultimately a book written by men .
Not saying it's useless there are many wonderful things I take from the bible , especially the gospels , and when you really study you can see God you just have to wipe away mans fingerprint .



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What if the Bible is full of deeper meanings? I see God as the God of love, Jesus was in his express image and that's how I see God. I know that God can be hard too, just like a parent chastising their children, and I know that he is just, but I know with all my heart that God is full of love, compassion, mercy and forgiveness. As I said just look at Jesus, and we as the love of God.

All the Bible has deeper meanings, it's full of parables and metaphors. For instance, slaying with the sword is putting to death sin with the word of God by the power of the Holy Spirit. The whole Bible is like this.

 

[deborah]

Again I agree , sometimes it's difficult to understand what is literal and what is symbolic , like hell fire .
All we can do is our best with the knowledge and goodness of heart .
When it comes to punishing or chastising his children I think we would have to talk about that a little more . I know people who believe sickness and disabilities are a punishment for sin , etc .




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[marhig]

I believe this world will pass away and all the evil in it weather I believe it or not . Who qualifies to enter paradise in the next life isn't my session to make . What I do know ,like you said is that we cannot expect to treat this earth the people on it and the creator himself with such disregard without penalty, whatever that may look like .
God has given me a life for which I am grateful and and an earth to live it on . Bit from there on in I believe it is my job to live it accordingly with the best that I have been given . We all have wonderful amazing gifts that I believe God has given us to aid us and others in life .
I do not believe in the fiery flames of hell , I have done lots of study in the past as both of my parents have passed away . God would not create such an evil place for something we He himself had made .


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When I say saved from this world of sin and death, I mean the the Spirit of God through Christ, takes us out of this world, brings us from death to life, then the ways of this world will mean nothing to us anymore, and as we turn away to do Gods will, then he will strengthen us in his love so that we are able to overcome our fleshly ways and turn from sin and his love will fill our hearts and the life of Christ will be seen through us.

I agree, only God can decide who goes where, thank goodness, because if it was left to some here, then they would be happily poking a fire ready to throw most is us into it. My hope is for everyone to be saved, God loves everyone of us, but only he can know who will be and who won't be with him.

I believe that hell is a state, God is light, so being away from him and under the will of Satan is hell, and being away from the light of God is being in darkness. Being in the fires of hell, is being under the control of the devil, and we are in hell now when we are in darkness to God and living to please ourselves, doing the works of our flesh, and we are in darkness until we are lifted out of the pit by our saviour Christ Jesus, who brings us from darkness to light, from death to life by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I'm free now Deborah, free of this world and the ways of Satan, my old life is gone, dead. I'm not in darkness anymore and I care more for the things of God than for the works of the flesh, and I love God and Christ from my heart. And that's what God wants from us, to love him with our all, love our neighbour ourselves, live by his will and abide in his goodness. Love is the key to everything, and Christ Jesus was full of love. He is the way the truth and the life, the only way that we are follow, because he lived it out perfectly.

I'm glad you have started posting, thanks for sharing your thoughts

 

[oatmeal]

Who is shooting? or preparing to shoot?

 

[marhig]

Again I agree , sometimes it's difficult to understand what is literal and what is symbolic , like hell fire .
All we can do is our best with the knowledge and goodness of heart .

:thumb:

When it comes to punishing or chastising his children I think we would have to talk about that a little more . I know people who believe sickness and disabilities are a punishment for sin , etc . Sent from my iPhone using TOL

And I wonder if they have read the book of Job?

But I also believe that God does chastise those who know him and disobey him.

And when I say chastise children, I don't mean beat them senseless like some wicked people do, but I wasn't overly soft with my children either, I put them right when they go wrong, but I'm always there for them and love then from my heart.. And I believe that God is like this with us.

 

[deborah]

Again I agree . And I'm not trying to be nit picky , as I stated before we can only do the best with the knowledge we have and what we truly believe with the goodness of your heart .
A few years ago I would have used the exact same wording . But now I can't help but study and think what of those words are literal and which are symbolic .
For instance we all know right from wrong , we don't need a church or a pastor/priest , or a book to tell us .i believe it is something our Heavenly Father has already equipped us with . Some people of course choose not to listen whilst others search and try to live out that deeper meaning which you referred to .
And as for Satan (a topic which I'm a studying at the moment) is he really an actual being who we can blame when we make the wrong choice ? Or another symbol/metaphor for that part of us that CHOOSES to make wrong decisions? I put that in bold to emphasise that only we are accountable for the choices we make .
Some more of my questions that go unanswered about Satan are , why is it that according to the bible it seems God has condoned the killing of way more people than Satan has ? When a child dies is that Satan or Gods will ? When someone gets ill is that Satan or God ?
It seems to me in the Old Testament Satan was the guy who carried out Gods dirty work killing and punishing the evil ones , then in the new he becomes our scapegoat, he is something we claim we have to fight daily , where in reality it is only ever ourselves that make the choices we do .


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[deborah]

:thumb:


And I wonder if they have read the book of Job?

But I also believe that God does chastise those who know him and disobey him.

And when I say chastise children, I don't mean beat them senseless like some wicked people do, but I wasn't overly soft with my children either, I put them right when they go wrong, but I'm always there for them and love then from my heart.. And I believe that God is like this with us.

Of course job was a friend of God , did nothing wrong so God sent Satan to test him . We all know how the story goes . Does that sound rational or loving to you ? Is that what is happening all over the world today ? In third world countries or even such devastation in our own ? Can I ask who or what is to blame for such tragedies ?
Of course any good parent tries to show there children the correct way to behave and has to correct them in their error . And as the bible states if we know how to love and guide our children imagine how much more God does . However I would not throw my children into a pit of flames for eternity , or stone them to death if they misbehave or want to physically hurt them in any way . God doesn't either because that's not called chastisement that's called evil .


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[marhig]

Of course job was a friend of God , did nothing wrong so God sent Satan to test him . We all know how the story goes . Does that sound rational or loving to you ? Is that what is happening all over the world today ? In third world countries or even such devastation in our own ? Can I ask who or what is to blame for such tragedies ?
Of course any good parent tries to show there children the correct way to behave and has to correct them in their error . And as the bible states if we know how to love and guide our children imagine how much more God does . However I would not throw my children into a pit of flames for eternity , or stone them to death if they misbehave or want to physically hurt them in any way . God doesn't either because that's not called chastisement that's called evil .


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Nor do I, but, I've said what I believe the fires of hell to be, and if we want to live to please our flesh, and put our lives before the will of God, then I believe that God will let us go through it, and if we want the ways of Satan and this world, he'll let us have it, like the prodigal son, yet the father was always awaiting his return but he had to suffer first to realise what he had, and he went through what he did because of the hardness of his heart, because he wanted the waste his inheritance and live his own life. As many of us do.

And the Bible is full of wisdom, we have to have the ears to hear. And the more we are willing to let go of our lives and live by the will of God, the more understanding God will give us. I don't know it all, or understand everything, but I do know that God is merciful and I don't believe that the old testament is only natural it is also spiritual.

As for this world, Satan is here, so there will be suffering, we will all go through suffering in this world, and those born of God will be tried, but going through trials strengthens us. God wouldn't have tried Job, if he didn't think he could go through it, but God knew his man, and he knew that he would be with Job and he would get through it. It says in the Bible that God won't tempt us with more than we can bare, Job was a very strong man of God, and he kept his faith to the end. And no matter what we go through in this life, we are to do the same.

God made this world beautiful, but because Satan is in the heart of man, we are destroying the world around us. We destroy what God creates, until we are born of him then we should bring his love to others.

God made grass, flowers, trees, birds etc. and man covers it with concrete. And this is like our hearts, we bring hardness into our hearts as we sin, but if we believe the truth, and believe in Christ Jesus and the gospel, and take the word of God deep into our hearts when we first hear it, then God softens our heart with his word poured into our hearts like water from the clouds of heaven. And enlightens us and feeds is daily with his bread of heaven which is Christ in the heart.

Anyway, I have to go, my daughter and son and grandkids have come to see me so my house is full hope to speak again soon.

Mary