ST. JOHN 11:26

[way 2 go]

It depends on the context of the sentence. If we say "They traveled by car, mule, and elephant", it's pretty obvious that it is modes of transportation ("travel"). Same if we say "They traveled by car, and they traveled by mule and elephant." There may be something different about cars, but "traveled" links all three together still.

they are things that die

So in our verse, if all three are "giving up the dead that are in them", then it's fairly obvious that there are "dead" in them that are being given up. If you want to propose a different kind of dead, you need to explain why you think they are different. I think you've done that below, so let's continue

cars animals & people die

Neither of those verses say anything about souls going to Hades. Read them carefully. But even if they did, as some verses do in the OT talking about Sheol, what do they mean by souls going down to Sheol/Hades? Are all the uses of something going to Sheol/Hades consistent in the usage? If a city goes down to Sheol, does that mean all the souls from that city are there? Does that mean souls from other cities are NOT there?

we have souls and when people died there souls went to Sheol \ Hades the place of departed souls

now believers souls go to heaven
Rev_6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

I agree, in part. But then can we trust Job for anything, or do we throw out anything that isn't spoken by God? I think we need to discern which parts of Job's speech are driven by his own foolishness in his anguish, and which parts are driven by the hope he places in God. Fortunately Job gave us some clue in Job 7:11. You've shown a couple more from ch 38. We should look for other clues, too.

Here are a couple:
[Job 42:7 KJV] And it was [so], that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me [the thing that is] right, as my servant Job [hath].
[Job 42:8 KJV] Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you [after your] folly, in that ye have not spoken of me [the thing which is] right, like my servant Job.

So some of what Job said was right, despite the obvious rebuke of the verses you cited from ch 38.

yep reading the bible correctly takes discernment .

Job's life was not in danger but he did not know that .
Job 2:6 And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your hand; only spare his life."

Job 7:7 "Remember that my life is a breath; my eye will never again see good.
Job 7:8 The eye of him who sees me will behold me no more; while your eyes are on me, I shall be gone.

 

[Rosenritter]

they are things that die
cars animals & people die
we have souls and when people died there souls went to Sheol \ Hades the place of departed souls
now believers souls go to heaven
Rev_6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

The altar in that vision is on the earth, not in heaven (and there is no altar for slaughtering sacrifices in heaven.)

"I saw under the altar - A symbolical vision was exhibited, in which he saw an altar; and under it the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God - martyred for their attachment to Christianity, are represented as being newly slain as victims to idolatry and superstition. The altar is upon earth, not in heaven." - Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible

"... the position of the martyrs - “under the altar.” There were in the temple at Jerusalem two altars - the altar of burnt sacrifices, and the altar of incense. The altar here referred to was probably the former. This stood in front of the temple, and it was on this that the daily sacrifice was made. Compare the notes on Mat_5:23-24. We are to remember, however, that the temple and the altar were both destroyed before the time when this book was written, and this should, therefore, be regarded merely as a vision. John saw these souls as if they were collected under the altar - the place where the sacrifice for sin was made - offering their supplications. Why they are represented as being there is not so apparent; but probably two suggestions will explain this:
(a) The altar was the place where sin was expiated, and it was natural to represent these redeemed martyrs as seeking refuge there; and
(b) it was usual to offer prayers and supplications at the altar, in connection with the sacrifice made for sin, and on the ground of that sacrifice." - Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible

 

[way 2 go]

Just as true as when God foretold the premature death of Hezekiah... but then changed his mind. Or when he told Moses to stand aside so that he would destroy all Israel... and again, changed his mind. The expression of conditional intent or emotions does not fall into the category of "correct" or "incorrect."

So why are you inconsistent by not allowing this same consideration to Job? When Job expresses emotion at the thought of death and dying, that they that go down are not going to rise up by themselves, and then later speaks prophetically about the resurrection of the flesh and the Redeemer of Mankind on the earth, why do you not also acknowledge the context of each statement and allow that he is now adding additional information?

Job's life was not in danger
Job 2:6 And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your hand; only spare his life."

Yawn. You might as well chastise God for speaking in the same fashion in Isaiah, where he says that the army quenched in the sea shall not rise.

Isaiah 43:16-17 KJV
(16) Thus saith the LORD, which maketh a way in the sea, and a path in the mighty waters;
(17) Which bringeth forth the chariot and horse, the army and the power; they shall lie down together, they shall not rise: they are extinct, they are quenched as tow.

yup they died
Isa 43:16 So says Jehovah, who makes a way in the sea, and a path in mighty waters;
Isa 43:17 who brings out chariot and horse, force and power. They shall lie down together; they shall not rise; they are put out; they are snuffed out like the wick.

Are you done trying to twist words of scripture out of context?

twisting words is your job

Ah, so you are saying that Jesus lied? Jesus plainly said that the maid slept. You're utterly inconsistent Way 2 Go.

no

No evidence of contradiction? Must I bludgeon you again?

Psalms 94:17 KJV
(17) Unless the LORD had been my help, my soul had almost dwelt in silence.

Psalms 115:17 KJV
(17) The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Job 10:20-22 KJV
(20) Are not my days few? cease then, and let me alone, that I may take comfort a little,
(21) Before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death;
(22) A land of darkness, as darkness itself; and of the shadow of death, without any order, and where the light is as darkness.
Yes, certainly your forced interpretation creates a whole stack of contradiction, because the scriptures that God (Jesus) himself wrote were not silent as to the nature of death.

Mat 25:30 And throw the worthless slave out into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of the teeth.
Mat 13:42 And they will throw them into the furnace of fire; there will be weeping and gnashing of the teeth.

Psalms 146:2-4 KJV
(2) While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.
(3) Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
(4) His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

that very day his thoughts perish from here on earth

Psalms 6:4-5 KJV
(4) Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.
(5) For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalms 6:5
is a question but to answer the question Abraham could or Moses and Elijah.

Mat 17:3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah talking with Him.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV
(5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

the dead know not any thing going on here on earth
neither have they any more a reward here on earth
for the memory of them is forgotten here on earth

... not to mention how it is described thereafter.

2 Peter 2:17 KJV
(17) These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

Mat 25:30 And throw the worthless slave out into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of the teeth.
Mat 13:42 And they will throw them into the furnace of fire; there will be weeping and gnashing of the teeth.

so no contradiction with luke 16:19-31 and the rest of the bible

 

[way 2 go]

The altar in that vision is on the earth, not in heaven (and there is no altar for slaughtering sacrifices in heaven.)

Spoiler

"I saw under the altar - A symbolical vision was exhibited, in which he saw an altar; and under it the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God - martyred for their attachment to Christianity, are represented as being newly slain as victims to idolatry and superstition. The altar is upon earth, not in heaven." - Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible

"... the position of the martyrs - “under the altar.” There were in the temple at Jerusalem two altars - the altar of burnt sacrifices, and the altar of incense. The altar here referred to was probably the former. This stood in front of the temple, and it was on this that the daily sacrifice was made. Compare the notes on Mat_5:23-24. We are to remember, however, that the temple and the altar were both destroyed before the time when this book was written, and this should, therefore, be regarded merely as a vision. John saw these souls as if they were collected under the altar - the place where the sacrifice for sin was made - offering their supplications. Why they are represented as being there is not so apparent; but probably two suggestions will explain this:
(a) The altar was the place where sin was expiated, and it was natural to represent these redeemed martyrs as seeking refuge there; and
(b) it was usual to offer prayers and supplications at the altar, in connection with the sacrifice made for sin, and on the ground of that sacrifice." - Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible

as usual :nono:

Rev 8:1 And when He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in Heaven for about half an hour.
Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels who stood before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer. And many incenses were given to him, so that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints on the golden altar before the throne.
Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God from the angel's hand.
Rev 8:5 And the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar, and cast it into the earth. And voices and thunderings and lightnings and an earthquake occurred.

 

[Derf]

they are things that die


cars animals & people die

Not really. When we say that cars "die" we use "die" as a euphemism to indicate that they aren't working anymore. But to really die, a car first must have life, which it doesn't. So this is the interesting thing about our conversation. Animals and people die, but cars don't, so what is the difference? And what happens to people when they die?

Let's go back to the euphemism: if a car "dies", then it ceases to function. It doesn't perform any of the functions that it exhibited in "life" (where "life" for a car is that the engine runs, charging the battery and allowing us to use the equipment in the car, as well as pushing the car to the places we want to go.

So if a car "dies" when it no longer performs the functions of "life", why would we then say a person who can still perform the functions of life could be considered dead? This is the controversy regarding the story of Lazarus and the rich man--the rich man (as well as Abraham) were both performing the same kind of things they did in life.[/QUOTE]

 

[glorydaz]

This is the controversy regarding the story of Lazarus and the rich man--the rich man (as well as Abraham) were both performing the same kind of things they did in life.

Except there are other ways of seeing than with physical eyes. Just as there are other ways of being in torment than with physical pain.

Deuteronomy 29:4 Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.​

 

[way 2 go]

So if a car "dies" when it no longer performs the functions of "life", why would we then say a person who can still perform the functions of life could be considered dead? This is the controversy regarding the story of Lazarus and the rich man--the rich man (as well as Abraham) were both performing the same kind of things they did in life.

no controversy

Joh 4:24 God is a spirit,

and angels are spirits & also angels carried the spirit of Lazarus

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side.

 

[Derf]

Except there are other ways of seeing than with physical eyes. Just as there are other ways of being in torment than with physical pain.

Deuteronomy 29:4 Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.​

Well, that's what we're trying to figure out, isn't it? But if we assume the conclusion, we may have a problem.

 

[glorydaz]

Well, that's what we're trying to figure out, isn't it? But if we assume the conclusion, we may have a problem.

Hmmm...I guess I don't see the problem.

 

[Derf]

Hmmm...I guess I don't see the problem.

You don't see a problem with "begging the question" to determine the truth of a proposition?

 

[Derf]

no controversy

Joh 4:24 God is a spirit,

and angels are spirits & also angels carried the spirit of Lazarus

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side.

What you are missing from the scripture is the thing that the angels carried. It might have been the spirit of Lazarus. It might have been his soul. It might have been his body. It might have been some combination of those things. The scripture isn't as specific as your statement above.

Just because angels are spirits doesn't mean that what they carried was Lazarus' spirit.

In fact, Jude tells us of an instance where an angel specifically dealt with the BODY of the dead person:
[Jde 1:9 KJV] Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Why do you think 1) the devil would care about Moses' body, and 2) Michael would care about Moses' body?

 

[Rosenritter]

What you are missing from the scripture is the thing that the angels carried. It might have been the spirit of Lazarus. It might have been his soul. It might have been his body. It might have been some combination of those things. The scripture isn't as specific as your statement above.

Just because angels are spirits doesn't mean that what they carried was Lazarus' spirit.

In fact, Jude tells us of an instance where an angel specifically dealt with the BODY of the dead person:
[Jde 1:9 KJV] Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Why do you think 1) the devil would care about Moses' body, and 2) Michael would care about Moses' body?

I am guessing that Israel may have been tempted to worship it if they had known where it was.

Deuteronomy 34:5-6 KJV
(5) So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
(6) And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.

 

[Derf]

I am guessing that Israel may have been tempted to worship it if they had known where it was.

Deuteronomy 34:5-6 KJV
(5) So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
(6) And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.

Here's another, more fanciful, story of the devil trying to get Moses' body (from here) before being rebuked:

The Circumcision of Gershom. Moses was imprisoned in a deep dungeon in Jethro's house, and received as food only small portions of bread and water. He would have died of hunger had not Zipporah, to whom Moses had before his captivity made an offer of marriage by the well, devised a plan by which she no longer went out to pasture the sheep, but remained at home to attend to the household, being thereby enabled to supply Moses with food without her father's knowledge. After ten (or seven) years Zipporah reminded her father that he had at one time cast a man into the dungeon, who must have died long ago; but ifhe were still living he must be a just man whom God had kept alive by a miracle. Jethro went to the dungeon and called Moses, who answered immediately. As Jethro found Moses praying, he really believed that he had been saved by a miracle, and liberated him. Jethro had planted in his garden a marvelous rod, which had been created on the sixth day of the Creation, on Friday afternoon, and had been given to Adam. This curious rod had been handed down through Enoch, Shem, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to Joseph, at whose death it came into the possession of Pharaoh's court. Jethro, who saw it there, stole it and planted it in his garden. On the rod were engraved the name of God (Yhwh) and the initials of the ten plagues destined for Egypt. Jethro asked every one who wished to marry one of his daughters to pull up the rod; but no suitor had yet succeeded in doing so. Moses, on being set at liberty, walked in the garden, saw the rod, and read the inscription. He easily pulled it out of the ground and used it for a staff (see Aaron's Rod). Jethro thereby recognized Moses as the deliverer of Israel, and gave him the virtuous Zipporah as wife, together with much money ("S. Y.," "D. Y.," and "M. W." l.c.). Jethro stipulated that the first-born son of the marriage should adopt Jethro's pagan belief, while all the other children might be reared as Jews; and Moses agreed thereto (Mek., Yitro, 1 [ed. Weiss, p. 65b]). According to "M. W." l.c., one-half of the children of this marriage were to belong to Judaism and one-half to paganism. When therefore his son Gershom—who subsequently became the father of Jonathan—was born, Moses, under his agreement with Jethro, could not circumcise him ("S. Y." l.c.). Moses, therefore, went with his wife and child (another version says that both of his sons were then already born) to Egypt. On the way he met Satan, or Mastema, as he is called in the Book of Jubilees (xlviii. 2), in the guise of a serpent, which proceeded to swallow Moses, and had ingested the upper part of his body, when he stopped. Zipporah seeing this, concluded that the serpent's action was due to the fact that her son had not been circumcised (Ned. 31b-32a; Ex. R. v.), whereupon she circumcised him and smeared some of the blood on Moses' feet. A voice ("bat ḳol") was then heard commanding the serpent to disgorge the half-swallowed Moses, which it immediately did. ("M. W." l.c.).

 

[Rosenritter]

Here's another, more fanciful, story of the devil trying to get Moses' body (from here) before being rebuked:

The Circumcision of Gershom. Moses was imprisoned in a deep dungeon in Jethro's house, and received as food only small portions of bread and water. He would have died of hunger had not Zipporah, to whom Moses had before his captivity made an offer of marriage by the well, devised a plan by which she no longer went out to pasture the sheep, but remained at home to attend to the household, being thereby enabled to supply Moses with food without her father's knowledge. After ten (or seven) years Zipporah reminded her father that he had at one time cast a man into the dungeon, who must have died long ago; but ifhe were still living he must be a just man whom God had kept alive by a miracle. Jethro went to the dungeon and called Moses, who answered immediately. As Jethro found Moses praying, he really believed that he had been saved by a miracle, and liberated him. Jethro had planted in his garden a marvelous rod, which had been created on the sixth day of the Creation, on Friday afternoon, and had been given to Adam. This curious rod had been handed down through Enoch, Shem, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to Joseph, at whose death it came into the possession of Pharaoh's court. Jethro, who saw it there, stole it and planted it in his garden. On the rod were engraved the name of God (Yhwh) and the initials of the ten plagues destined for Egypt. Jethro asked every one who wished to marry one of his daughters to pull up the rod; but no suitor had yet succeeded in doing so. Moses, on being set at liberty, walked in the garden, saw the rod, and read the inscription. He easily pulled it out of the ground and used it for a staff (see Aaron's Rod). Jethro thereby recognized Moses as the deliverer of Israel, and gave him the virtuous Zipporah as wife, together with much money ("S. Y.," "D. Y.," and "M. W." l.c.). Jethro stipulated that the first-born son of the marriage should adopt Jethro's pagan belief, while all the other children might be reared as Jews; and Moses agreed thereto (Mek., Yitro, 1 [ed. Weiss, p. 65b]). According to "M. W." l.c., one-half of the children of this marriage were to belong to Judaism and one-half to paganism. When therefore his son Gershom—who subsequently became the father of Jonathan—was born, Moses, under his agreement with Jethro, could not circumcise him ("S. Y." l.c.). Moses, therefore, went with his wife and child (another version says that both of his sons were then already born) to Egypt. On the way he met Satan, or Mastema, as he is called in the Book of Jubilees (xlviii. 2), in the guise of a serpent, which proceeded to swallow Moses, and had ingested the upper part of his body, when he stopped. Zipporah seeing this, concluded that the serpent's action was due to the fact that her son had not been circumcised (Ned. 31b-32a; Ex. R. v.), whereupon she circumcised him and smeared some of the blood on Moses' feet. A voice ("bat ḳol") was then heard commanding the serpent to disgorge the half-swallowed Moses, which it immediately did. ("M. W." l.c.).

That's some story.

 

[way 2 go]

What you are missing from the scripture is the thing that the angels carried. It might have been the spirit of Lazarus. It might have been his soul. It might have been his body. It might have been some combination of those things. The scripture isn't as specific as your statement above.

Just because angels are spirits doesn't mean that what they carried was Lazarus' spirit.

lots of other reasons

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you will be with Me in Paradise.


Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

1 can only be the crucified mans spirit body in the ground
2 rich man died
3 rich man buried , therefore body in the ground
4 rich man in Hades & fire therefore has to be his spirit or soul can't be his body remember body in the ground.
5 rich man is talking to Abraham who is dead & buried can't be Abraham's body either has to be his spirit
6 people are buried in graves & the Sea not in Hades
7 death and Hades delivered up the dead which were in them
8 death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire & not the sea
9 death and Hades for spirits, Sea for bodies
10 now believers souls go to heaven

 

[Derf]

lots of other reasons

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you will be with Me in Paradise.


Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

1 can only be the crucified mans spirit body in the ground
2 rich man died
3 rich man buried , therefore body in the ground
4 rich man in Hades & fire therefore has to be his spirit or soul can't be his body remember body in the ground.
5 rich man is talking to Abraham who is dead & buried can't be Abraham's body either has to be his spirit
6 people are buried in graves & the Sea not in Hades
7 death and Hades delivered up the dead which were in them
8 death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire & not the sea
9 death and Hades for spirits, Sea for bodies
10 now believers souls go to heaven

It's very difficult to understand what you are trying to say without complete sentences.

The thing about the body being in the ground is possibly mitigated by a potential resurrection. This is where we differ, I know, but the old testament seems to think the resurrection is the crucial thing for the afterlife. The new testament does too. In this they are in agreement.

If you think about what a man will experience when he dies, assuming he has no way of interacting with the environment or angels or God without his body (just an assumption at this point), you can imagine that the next place the rich man would have any cognizance would be after his resurrection. Thus he feels pain. Thus he can see Abraham. Thus he can long for something. And, since he wasn't cognizant of anything else until his body was returned to life, there wasn't any space of time that he would know of between death and his resurrection. This fits the Old Testament narratives, the Rev 20 narrative, the rich man narrative, the Lazarus narrative, the thief on the cross narrative, and the 1Thess 4:13-18 narrative.


I don't know that any other theory fits as many passages.

 

[glorydaz]

The thing about the body being in the ground is possibly mitigated by a potential resurrection. This is where we differ, I know, but the old testament seems to think the resurrection is the crucial thing for the afterlife. The new testament does too. In this they are in agreement.

If you think about what a man will experience when he dies, assuming he has no way of interacting with the environment or angels or God without his body (just an assumption at this point), you can imagine that the next place the rich man would have any cognizance would be after his resurrection. Thus he feels pain. Thus he can see Abraham. Thus he can long for something. And, since he wasn't cognizant of anything else until his body was returned to life, there wasn't any space of time that he would know of between death and his resurrection. This fits the Old Testament narratives, the Rev 20 narrative, the rich man narrative, the Lazarus narrative, the thief on the cross narrative, and the 1Thess 4:13-18 narrative.


I don't know that any other theory fits as many passages.

I have no idea where you get that idea.

Were Moses and Elijah resurrected when they appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration? No.

 

[Rosenritter]

It's very difficult to understand what you are trying to say without complete sentences.

The thing about the body being in the ground is possibly mitigated by a potential resurrection. This is where we differ, I know, but the old testament seems to think the resurrection is the crucial thing for the afterlife. The new testament does too. In this they are in agreement.

If you think about what a man will experience when he dies, assuming he has no way of interacting with the environment or angels or God without his body (just an assumption at this point), you can imagine that the next place the rich man would have any cognizance would be after his resurrection. Thus he feels pain. Thus he can see Abraham. Thus he can long for something. And, since he wasn't cognizant of anything else until his body was returned to life, there wasn't any space of time that he would know of between death and his resurrection. This fits the Old Testament narratives, the Rev 20 narrative, the rich man narrative, the Lazarus narrative, the thief on the cross narrative, and the 1Thess 4:13-18 narrative.


I don't know that any other theory fits as many passages.

English "will" and "shall" often get confused (and grammar may not be Way 2 Go's strong point) but the traditional translation of Luke 23:43 "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise" places the promise that day and the fulfillment at any point in the future. As such the passage has no difficulty either with or without a knowledge of time passing in death. It's only with the newer English translations that change the word to "will" that the passage then appears to read as if it promised immediate fulfillment.

Luke 23:42-43 KJV
(42) And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
(43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

But for those that would argue that "will" is the intended translation, I'd ask anyone to show me where Jesus could be counted as being in Paradise that day. Three days later and he tells Mary that he has not yet ascended to his Father.

John 20:17 KJV
(17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

 

[glorydaz]

You don't see a problem with "begging the question" to determine the truth of a proposition?

So don't beg the question, and there will be no problem.

 

[way 2 go]

English "will" and "shall" often get confused (and grammar may not be Way 2 Go's strong point) but the traditional translation of Luke 23:43 "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise" places the promise that day and the fulfillment at any point in the future. As such the passage has no difficulty either with or without a knowledge of time passing in death. It's only with the newer English translations that change the word to "will" that the passage then appears to read as if it promised immediate fulfillment.

Luke 23:42-43 KJV
(42) And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
(43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

But for those that would argue that "will" is the intended translation, I'd ask anyone to show me where Jesus could be counted as being in Paradise that day. Three days later and he tells Mary that he has not yet ascended to his Father.

John 20:17 KJV
(17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

how could that be possible :shocked:
oh wait Rosen did you forget Jesus is God



Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Joh 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?


God is one God so
the convict is in paradise with God that day