oatmeal
Well-known member
It is good enough for the apostles, it is good enough for me.
Speaking in Tongues a Stupid Practice and Probably "Annoys God."
- Thread starter Traditio
- Start date
It is good enough for the apostles, it is good enough for me.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Evidently, you have not read I Corinthians 12-14 nor the book of Acts
If you wish to be educated in what scripture has to say, you might start with reading it.
What's the context? What is being described?
Interplanner
Well-known member
It was meant as additional proof to unbelieving Jews that the mission of God really was to the nations (Is 49:6), as an after effect on top of the Pentecost event (which served that purpose), in case some of them were not there. The trajectory of the cases shows that it fades out (see Acts 19), and at Corinth there seems to be something artificial going on, even though Paul reminds them why it existed for a while in the first place, by quoting Isaiah.
Poor old Peter not only had the vision of the sheets to correct him about the Gentiles, but also a tongues incident (Acts 11--exact same purpose), and then Paul! (Gal 2). God was making sure no other gospel got any traction.
Poor old Peter not only had the vision of the sheets to correct him about the Gentiles, but also a tongues incident (Acts 11--exact same purpose), and then Paul! (Gal 2). God was making sure no other gospel got any traction.
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Cessationism: http://www.modernreformation.org/default.php?page=articledisplay&var1=ArtRead&var2=422&var3=main
The Cascade Argument can be summarized thus:
1) There are no apostles of Christ on earth today.
2) Because there are no apostles of Christ, there are no prophets.
3) Because there are no prophets, there are no tongue speakers.
4) In view of 1-3, there are no miracle workers on earth today.
1. There are No Apostles of Christ on Earth Today
A) To be an Apostle of Christ was itself a gift to the church, and the foremost of the gifts. 1 Corinthians 12:28-31 Ephesians 4:8-11 – Christ gave gifts to men, among them apostles.
B) The term “apostles of Christ” is to be distinguished from missionaries, aka “apostles of the churches,” which is a different office. Only “apostles of Christ” are no longer among us.
C) To be an apostle of Christ, there were three distinguishing marks:
----i) Directly appointed by Christ (Mark 3, Luke 6, Acts 1:2, Acts 10:41, Galatians 1:1). That’s why the lot was used.
----ii) Physical eyewitnesses of the Resurrected Jesus (Acts 1:22, Acts 10:39, 1 Corinthians 9:1)
----iii) They are able to confirm their apostlate by doing miracles (2 Corinthians 12:12).
D) The apostles of Christ spoke authoritatively for Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 14:37).
E) There are five reasons we know from Scripture that the Apostlate ceased:
----i) Ephesians 2:20 The church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, which alludes to Revelation 21:14. The analogy implies that the apostles and prophets were confined to the foundational period of church history.
----ii) 1 Corinthians 15:8 Paul “last of all” was the last one to see the risen Christ. And since being a physical eyewitness to the risen Christ is one of the marks of an apostle, Paul is the last apostle.
----iii) 1 Corinthians 12:31 and 14:1 indicate that Christians cannot seek the gift of Apostle of Christ – the greatest gift they could seek was prophecy, even though apostleship was identified as a gift.
----iv) Galatians 2:7-9 Paul received the right hand of fellowship from the 12 apostles, but no one can today.
----v) Ephesians 2:20 This passage describes the form of the New Testament as “apostles and prophets.” If there were apostles and prophets today, the canon would be open, as those apostles/prophets continued to speak authoritatively. But Charismatics (nearly all) recognize that the canon is closed, therefore they ought to recognize that the apostlate is also closed.
F. Apostolic Gift is Linked to Impartation of Other Gifts (Acts 8)
This suggests the cessation of the miraculous gifts.
2. There are No Prophets Today
A) The cessation of the apostolate creates the presumption or at least possibility of cessation of other gifts.
B) NT Prophets like the Apostles were foundational to the New Testament church. (Ephesians 2:20)
C) Definition of Prophet in Deuteronomy 13 & 18 was never rescinded, and this requires infallibility.
D) Just as the OT’s authority is summarized as “the prophetic word” (2 Peter 1:19-21) and its form is also described in about a dozen NT references to “the law and the prophets” or “Moses and the prophets”, so also the NT’s canon is summarized in Ephesians 2:20 as “apostles and prophets” (the prophets in question are NT prophets as seen in Ephesians 3:5; 4:11 and 1 Corinthians 12:28).
3. There are No Tongue-Speakers Today because Tongues was a form of prophecy.
A) Acts 2 tongue speaking is explained by reference to Joel 2, where it is described as prophecy.
B) 1 Corinthians 14:5 asserts the equivalence of the two gifts, if tongues is interpreted.
C) In both tongues and prophecy, the speaker is uttering mysteries, which refers to prophetic revelation (1 Corinthians 13:2, Revelation 1:3, 1:20, and 10:7).
4. There are No Miracle-Workers Today
There may be miracles today, but there is a difference between miracles and miracle workers.
Recommended reading:
http://www.amazon.com/To-Be-Continued-Miraculous-Gifts/dp/1879737582
AMR
The Cascade Argument can be summarized thus:
1) There are no apostles of Christ on earth today.
2) Because there are no apostles of Christ, there are no prophets.
3) Because there are no prophets, there are no tongue speakers.
4) In view of 1-3, there are no miracle workers on earth today.
1. There are No Apostles of Christ on Earth Today
A) To be an Apostle of Christ was itself a gift to the church, and the foremost of the gifts. 1 Corinthians 12:28-31 Ephesians 4:8-11 – Christ gave gifts to men, among them apostles.
B) The term “apostles of Christ” is to be distinguished from missionaries, aka “apostles of the churches,” which is a different office. Only “apostles of Christ” are no longer among us.
C) To be an apostle of Christ, there were three distinguishing marks:
----i) Directly appointed by Christ (Mark 3, Luke 6, Acts 1:2, Acts 10:41, Galatians 1:1). That’s why the lot was used.
----ii) Physical eyewitnesses of the Resurrected Jesus (Acts 1:22, Acts 10:39, 1 Corinthians 9:1)
----iii) They are able to confirm their apostlate by doing miracles (2 Corinthians 12:12).
D) The apostles of Christ spoke authoritatively for Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 14:37).
E) There are five reasons we know from Scripture that the Apostlate ceased:
----i) Ephesians 2:20 The church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, which alludes to Revelation 21:14. The analogy implies that the apostles and prophets were confined to the foundational period of church history.
----ii) 1 Corinthians 15:8 Paul “last of all” was the last one to see the risen Christ. And since being a physical eyewitness to the risen Christ is one of the marks of an apostle, Paul is the last apostle.
----iii) 1 Corinthians 12:31 and 14:1 indicate that Christians cannot seek the gift of Apostle of Christ – the greatest gift they could seek was prophecy, even though apostleship was identified as a gift.
----iv) Galatians 2:7-9 Paul received the right hand of fellowship from the 12 apostles, but no one can today.
----v) Ephesians 2:20 This passage describes the form of the New Testament as “apostles and prophets.” If there were apostles and prophets today, the canon would be open, as those apostles/prophets continued to speak authoritatively. But Charismatics (nearly all) recognize that the canon is closed, therefore they ought to recognize that the apostlate is also closed.
F. Apostolic Gift is Linked to Impartation of Other Gifts (Acts 8)
This suggests the cessation of the miraculous gifts.
2. There are No Prophets Today
A) The cessation of the apostolate creates the presumption or at least possibility of cessation of other gifts.
B) NT Prophets like the Apostles were foundational to the New Testament church. (Ephesians 2:20)
C) Definition of Prophet in Deuteronomy 13 & 18 was never rescinded, and this requires infallibility.
D) Just as the OT’s authority is summarized as “the prophetic word” (2 Peter 1:19-21) and its form is also described in about a dozen NT references to “the law and the prophets” or “Moses and the prophets”, so also the NT’s canon is summarized in Ephesians 2:20 as “apostles and prophets” (the prophets in question are NT prophets as seen in Ephesians 3:5; 4:11 and 1 Corinthians 12:28).
3. There are No Tongue-Speakers Today because Tongues was a form of prophecy.
A) Acts 2 tongue speaking is explained by reference to Joel 2, where it is described as prophecy.
B) 1 Corinthians 14:5 asserts the equivalence of the two gifts, if tongues is interpreted.
C) In both tongues and prophecy, the speaker is uttering mysteries, which refers to prophetic revelation (1 Corinthians 13:2, Revelation 1:3, 1:20, and 10:7).
4. There are No Miracle-Workers Today
There may be miracles today, but there is a difference between miracles and miracle workers.
Recommended reading:
http://www.amazon.com/To-Be-Continued-Miraculous-Gifts/dp/1879737582
AMR
Interplanner
Well-known member
I don't know about tongues being a form of prophecy.
It first happened to get the same Gospel to speakers of many other languages at Pentecost. Peter spoke in Aramaic and they heard in theirs.
It then helped prove the major doctrine that God need to show several times to the unbelieving Jews: that He really did want the Gospel to go to the nations. Peter had to go through that and the visions and then have Paul clean his clock as well. All for the same purpose.
These purposes are not prophecy, although the content of Peter in Acts 2&3 did say that the conclusive judgement was going to happen to Israel soon. But mostly it more clear to say that the real tongues got the message out to the nations very quickly. It was the reverse and correction of what happened at Babel.
The last is Acts 19 and still has that purpose. But by the council of 15 Peter was straightened out. They just needed to decide how much torah was enough to honor Christ.
It first happened to get the same Gospel to speakers of many other languages at Pentecost. Peter spoke in Aramaic and they heard in theirs.
It then helped prove the major doctrine that God need to show several times to the unbelieving Jews: that He really did want the Gospel to go to the nations. Peter had to go through that and the visions and then have Paul clean his clock as well. All for the same purpose.
These purposes are not prophecy, although the content of Peter in Acts 2&3 did say that the conclusive judgement was going to happen to Israel soon. But mostly it more clear to say that the real tongues got the message out to the nations very quickly. It was the reverse and correction of what happened at Babel.
The last is Acts 19 and still has that purpose. But by the council of 15 Peter was straightened out. They just needed to decide how much torah was enough to honor Christ.
it would be good if you actually demonstrated your assertion to be accurate or not.
This is what's termed a "logical fallacy". The points are based on assumptions, not facts.
1 may be factual, there is no way of knowing for sure, but, the fact is that just as the Bible delineates different positions or offices that Christ gave the Church, a prophet does not need to be an Apostle and Prophecy does not equate to being a prophet. Prophesy is a gift of the Holy Spirit that does NOT involve tongues or interpretation, but simple faith, as Paul instructed in 1 Cor 14:32 (NIV)
Point 3 is therefore eliminated and point 4 is as well because points 2 and 3 are wrong.
Jesus said to wait and that the Holy Spirit would not come until He left.
John 14:16, 26 (NIV), John 16:7 (NIV)
The Holy Spirit replaced Jesus on earth as our advocate and He has NEVER left.
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It's not...it's a form of exhortation and declaration of the presence of the Holy Spirit, for unbelievers. Prophecy is for believers. 1 Cor 14 (NIV)
CherubRam
New member
Acts 2:6. When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken.
It is common knowledge that tongues is languages. The miracle was not in the speaking, but in the hearing. Each heard in their own tongue / language.
It is common knowledge that tongues is languages. The miracle was not in the speaking, but in the hearing. Each heard in their own tongue / language.
:carryon:
Interplanner
Well-known member
STanJ,
you're not quite specific enough though. The exhortation is to the unbelieving Jew that God's mission is indeed to the nations. That's why there are always unbelieving Jews in the picture and they are in need of proof that the Gospel should be going to the nations. Peter was the first one after Pentecost, which is a paradox (since he was at Pentecost), but there it is. He had caved in to Judaism's other Gospel and stood in need of correction done by tongues, by the vision and by Paul.
you're not quite specific enough though. The exhortation is to the unbelieving Jew that God's mission is indeed to the nations. That's why there are always unbelieving Jews in the picture and they are in need of proof that the Gospel should be going to the nations. Peter was the first one after Pentecost, which is a paradox (since he was at Pentecost), but there it is. He had caved in to Judaism's other Gospel and stood in need of correction done by tongues, by the vision and by Paul.
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RevTestament
New member
:thumb:
Speaking in tongues is biblical. Speaking gibberish to impress a crowd is of Satan. Speaking in a tongue so that someone can hear the gospel message is of God. Of course those who don't have that gift, but wish to impress a crowd might try to fool them by speaking gibberish, and so will call it "speaking in tongues" as they wish to appear to have a gift of God so as to attract more "tithe paying believers." Otherwise it is a purposeless act, and so is not of God. Indeed, I believe it is a sign one can rely on as to an untrue church where a demonic spirit is practicing.
That said, members of my church have had on occasion been blessed with the gift of tongues. A member of my own ward related the story of his grandfather who was struck with a throat cancer - the surgery for which caused him to largely be unintelligible. Although he wanted to go on a mission, his bishop told him he didn't see how the young man could serve since he could not understand him. Undaunted the young man persisted, until an apostle told him he could go. His mission president gave him a blessing that he would deliver the gospel message to the people, and gave him an assignment to give a talk. Although no one could understand him, the young man prepared his ideas, and arrived at the appointed time to give his talk. He not only was able to deliver the talk but delivered it in their foreign language - perfectly intelligible to the crowd. He was then able to speak somewhat normally again, and returned home this way to the great delight of his family.
That is not only an example of true speaking in a tongue, but a gift of healing rolled into one. Amen.
Interplanner
Well-known member
REvTest,
I suggest you go one step more precise as I did with StanJ one post above you. It is about the mission to the nations when unbelieving Jews don't accept that the Gospel is that mission.
This is why this 'gift' does not happen when Bible translators go out to their work. There are no unbelieving Jews (actually, followers of Judaism) in the picture who need proof.
I suggest you go one step more precise as I did with StanJ one post above you. It is about the mission to the nations when unbelieving Jews don't accept that the Gospel is that mission.
This is why this 'gift' does not happen when Bible translators go out to their work. There are no unbelieving Jews (actually, followers of Judaism) in the picture who need proof.
Kundulini tongues are the same as the babbles spoken in the penticoastals churches. If you were speaking in tongues like in Acts, then you not know how to speak german at all and then all of a sudden you speak fluent german to the germans like you lived there. That rules your tongues out and you have been doing the same thing they do in hinduism, yoga and older religions. There is nothing new in your claims. Theres nothing wrong with you babbling but babbling and lying at the same time causes ailments and corruption of the heart. Thats is the bad thing.
The idea of the serpent representing the life force and traveling up the spine is a mythological concept found often in ancient cultures. And--indeed--in Christian theology.
The phrase in the New Testament that Jesus is the serpent lifted up taps into this tradition. So does the iconography of the Egyptian pharaohs that shows a snake coming out of the head (the "third eye") of the carvings on the sarcophagus.
Because the snake sheds its skin it was believed to have the power of immortality.
And of course, there is the passage in the New Testament when Jesus urges his followers to be "wise as serpents and harmless as doves." The snake is tied to the earth and the dove is not.
The phrase in the New Testament that Jesus is the serpent lifted up taps into this tradition. So does the iconography of the Egyptian pharaohs that shows a snake coming out of the head (the "third eye") of the carvings on the sarcophagus.
Because the snake sheds its skin it was believed to have the power of immortality.
And of course, there is the passage in the New Testament when Jesus urges his followers to be "wise as serpents and harmless as doves." The snake is tied to the earth and the dove is not.
RevTestament
New member
If you are implying that the gift of tongues can only come to persons who are trying to relate the gospel to Jews, I see no such limitation in the scriptures.
There have been a number of people in the LDS church who wished to relate the gospel to foreigners - it seems esp true of Polynesians. Members were blessed with the gift of tongues so as to be able to relate the gospel in a language otherwise unknown to themselves.