These debates remind me of a conversation I once had with an old Mid-Acts Dispy from a previous generation who I had the privelege of having known for a time.
One day, he was lamenting "what's happened to our God inspired country..."
As we had a good rapport, and he had often struck me as a humble man, I asked him 'God inspired - was that before or after genocide committed against the people who were here?'
"They were heathen," he replied.
'No, brother' I said 'that happened way after 2 Corinthians 5:19 - God was no longer imputing their trespasses on them...'
"You're right" he replied "just goes to show how etrenched things become - even for someone like me; who should know better by now..."
2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
I learned as much that day, as that gracious old man.
Some years later; a controversy arose - as they do sooner or later between individuals within a same school of thought.
A small minority of MADs had concluded that Romans 13 was not about human government. How that just looking around at the mess of government; one could see such was true.
Immeditaley the following came to mind for me as to that...
Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
And this...
John 19:8 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the more afraid; 19:9 And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer. 19:10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin. 19:12 And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.
What's going on there is fallen man being fallen man.
As in this here...
Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
That a structure of government was ordained of God is obvious.
That man cannot but corrupt it is also obvious.
Just as obvious is the inescapable fact that Christ allowed Himself to be condemned and murdered under said governmental structure.
He submitted to that, instead of this...
Matthew 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
The Apostles - including Paul had also allowed themselves to be murdered under what "the powers...ordained of God" had made of said powers.
The fact is that we just want our way in these matters.
Me and my baseball bat included.
All some are doing is the exact same thing our colonizing; murdering; butchering; slave owning so called Christian Forefathers did - twisting the Scriptures not only to the destruction of the fact of 2 Corinthians 5:19, but to the destruction of those the Cross calls out to that they might be saved while this planet still has one more day of salvation being offered to one and all, prior to God's unleashing the fullness of His impending wrath.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. 17:32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter. 17:33 So Paul departed from among them. 17:34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Afterwhich...
2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Either that wrath to come, or this in Christ now...
2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 2:17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
You see all that - all of it one and the same abomination - idol worship - man in place of God.
That is why the effeminate and abusers of themselves with mankind and all the rest take offence.
The hypocrites want to live as THEY please.
And ANYONE who names Christ as His Saviour but caters to the coddling of such is not only a spiritual coward, but anything but a witness of the Cross's powere to liberate such from their hedonist self-worship.
6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
God's grace only appears pacifist.
We really don't need our baseball bat.
2 Corinthians 11:26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 11:27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. 11:29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not? 11:30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
The real issue is compromise in one form or another, in contrast to and out of a misunderstanding of the power that the Cross of Christ can empower one with.
Galatians 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
Galatians 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
6:17 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.
