Scripture. What is considered Scripture?

[Wick Stick]

Do a search for all instances of the word in the Bible.
נָצַר - natsar H5341

blah blah blah

Sure, God can protect. Nonetheless, people perish all the time.

The bigger point, which you totally glossed over, was that the word is f o r e v e r, in contradiction to your prior post that "God does not preserve words."

 

[daqq]

Thanks for input, daqq.

When you figure out what the words of Jesus to the two disciples He sent actually were, let me know.

Translation:

"No, I'm not chicken, I proved it, you are just too confused to understand" . . . :chicken:



:rip:

 

[genuineoriginal]

Sure, God can protect. Nonetheless, people perish all the time.

The bigger point, which you totally glossed over, was that the word is f o r e v e r, in contradiction to your prior post that "God does not preserve words."

If you think that Isaiah 40:8 is speaking of words written in the Bible before and after Isaiah was written, you are missing the bigger point.
God does not preserve "words", He keeps His promises.

Isaiah 40:1-5 1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. 2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the Lord's hand double for all her sins. 3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: 5 And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.​

 

[glorydaz]

I am not wrong.
The psalm is clearly about whether godly men (the faithful) will be cease to exist among mankind or whether God will preserve godly men (the faithful).

Psalm 12:1,7 1 Help, Lord; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men. 7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.​

The words written in the Bible before and after the psalm was written have nothing to do with it.

Nothing to do with it? Seriously? God's pure words ..purified seven times have nothing to do with it?

Psalm 12:1
1 Help, Lord; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.​

Even godly men cease and fail from among the children of men. But what will not fail are the promises and the word of God.

Psalm 12:2-5 They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak. 3 The Lord shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:
4 Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us? 5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the Lord; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.​

You are trying to skip the heart of this Psalm ....which is of God's enduring word.

Psalm 12:6-7 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.​

1 Peter 1:24-25 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Nothing to do with it? Seriously? God's pure words ..purified seven times have nothing to do with it?

Psalm 12:1
1 Help, Lord; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.​

Even godly men cease and fail from among the children of men. But what will not fail are the promises and the word of God.

Psalm 12:2-5 They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak. 3 The Lord shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:
4 Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us? 5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the Lord; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.​

You are trying to skip the heart of this Psalm ....which is of God's enduring word.

Psalm 12:6-7 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.​

You seem to have missed the words of the Lord spoken in the psalm that are "pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times", so I highlighted them for you.
Verse 7 is not speaking of preserving the words written in the Bible before and after the psalm was written.
Verse 7 is affirming that God will preserve the faithful throughout all generations.

 

[daqq]

You seem to have missed the words of the Lord spoken in the psalm that are "pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times", so I highlighted them for you.
Verse 7 is not speaking of preserving the words written in the Bible before and after the psalm was written.
Verse 7 is affirming that God will preserve the faithful throughout all generations.

Why can it not be both? That is what actually appears in the text as the YLT recognizes:

Psalm 12:6-7 YLT (Young's Literal Bible Translation)
6 Sayings of Jehovah are pure sayings; Silver tried in a furnace of earth refined sevenfold.
7 Thou, O Jehovah, dost preserve them, Thou keepest us from this generation to the age.

Also see Pro 30:5 where pure in some renderings is likewise in the sense of refined or tried.

"Imrat" - "Logia" - Oracles or Sayings, (also related: "Memra" and "Logos").

 

[glorydaz]

If you think that Isaiah 40:8 is speaking of words written in the Bible before and after Isaiah was written, you are missing the bigger point.
God does not preserve "words", He keeps His promises.

Isaiah 40:1-5 1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. 2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the Lord's hand double for all her sins. 3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: 5 And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.​

And who was there to hear it spoken, and who was given the task of writing those words God spoke?

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. 8 The lion hath roared, who will not fear? the Lord God hath spoken, who can but prophesy? 9 Publish in the palaces at Ashdod, and in the palaces in the land of Egypt, and say, Assemble yourselves upon the mountains of Samaria, and behold the great tumults in the midst thereof, and the oppressed in the midst thereof.​

Romans 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Romans 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

 

[genuineoriginal]

Why can it not be both? That is what actually appears in the text as the YLT recognizes:

Psalm 12:6-7 YLT (Young's Literal Bible Translation)
6 Sayings of Jehovah are pure sayings; Silver tried in a furnace of earth refined sevenfold.
7 Thou, O Jehovah, dost preserve them, Thou keepest us from this generation to the age.

Also see Pro 30:5 where pure in some renderings is likewise in the sense of refined or tried.

"Imrat" - "Logia" - Oracles or Sayings, (also related: "Memra" and "Logos").

Let scripture interpret scripture.
What is being tried as silver in a furnace?

Psalm 12:6b-7 6b as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.​

Psalm 66:10 For thou, O God, hast proved us: thou hast tried us, as silver is tried.​

 

[daqq]

Let scripture interpret scripture.
What is being tried as silver in a furnace?

Psalm 12:6b-7 6b as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.​

Psalm 66:10 For thou, O God, hast proved us: thou hast tried us, as silver is tried.​

I do not need to interpret the passage at all: the mem at the end of [t]shmr[m] means "them", (and refers to the sayings or words of Elohim), just as the YLT and most every other version renders it including your own quote. I only quoted the YLT because it somewhat includes what you also were saying while most other translations do not even hint at what you are saying, (the second portion of the verse is "preserve us" or "keep us", but of course, meaning the people of Elohim as a whole, the nation, the faithful). But I think I will butt-out and let you and the others continue your discussion on this.

 

[glorydaz]

You seem to have missed the words of the Lord spoken in the psalm that are "pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times", so I highlighted them for you.
Verse 7 is not speaking of preserving the words written in the Bible before and after the psalm was written.
Verse 7 is affirming that God will preserve the faithful throughout all generations.

You have some pretty serious tunnel vision.
God's enduring word is spoken of throughout the Bible.

Psalm 119 (a long psalm saying the same thing - it's the word of God that prevails and endures).

Spoiler

9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.

11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

16 I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word.

25 My soul cleaveth unto the dust: quicken thou me according to thy word.

28 My soul melteth for heaviness: strengthen thou me according unto thy word.


38 Stablish thy word unto thy servant, who is devoted to thy fear.

41 Let thy mercies come also unto me, O Lord, even thy salvation, according to thy word.

42 So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word.

50 This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me.

57 Thou art my portion, O Lord: I have said that I would keep thy words.

61 The bands of the wicked have robbed me: but I have not forgotten thy law.

​

It is the faithfulness of God's word that will not fail. It hasn't failed me, and I read it every single day.

Psalm 89:33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. 34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.​

There would be no "faithful" without God's word. Now would there be?

 

[2003cobra]

You are a perpetual source of amazement, Lon.

1) You elevate a doctrine not found in scripture to an essential, and declare disagreeing with your view a damning heresy!

2) You declare that you worship a book!

3) You say an entire mainstream Protestant denomination has “missed the Savior!”

4) Your main objection to someone recognizing that there are some minor, insignificant errors in the Bible seems to be that you think you need an inerrant text to spread the gospel. God is not so weak that we must deny the obvious truth to help Him.

It is amazing.

Lon, just when I thought you couldn’t get more amazing, you wrote:
On this, I'm simply saying for me to 'believe' the scriptures errant, I'd have to be a nonChristian.

This says your faith would crumble if you realized that there are errors in scripture.

This is just the slippery slope Daniel Wallace warned against for those making inerrancy a core doctrine.

I encourage you to place your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, rather than in a perfect book.

 

[patrick jane]

Lon, just when I thought you couldn’t get more amazing, you wrote:
On this, I'm simply saying for me to 'believe' the scriptures errant, I'd have to be a nonChristian.

This says your faith would crumble if you realized that there are errors in scripture.

This is just the slippery slope Daniel Wallace warned against for those making inerrancy a core doctrine.

I encourage you to place your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, rather than in a perfect book.

Lon certainly does place his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His shed blood. You're missing the point entirely. We trust the Holy Bible. Why keep focusing on your supposed "insignificant" errors? This is not even worth a thread, it's more of a one post opinion, for example you saying: "I don't believe the Bible is without error and is not a perfect book". That is your opinion and no further splaining is necessary.

Any serious Christian is not interested in supposed errors and will not waste time pondering where they might find an error.

How was it possible for you to believe? Was it by reading the Bible or from hearing someone who reads the Bible? It sure wasn't by hearing that there are "errors" in the Bible. Did you find your errors all by yourself or did you hear them from somebody else?

 

[2003cobra]

Lon certainly does place his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His shed blood. You're missing the point entirely. We trust the Holy Bible. Why keep focusing on your supposed "insignificant" errors? This is not even worth a thread, it's more of a one post opinion, for example you saying: "I don't believe the Bible is without error and is not a perfect book". That is your opinion and no further splaining is necessary.

The question is why you trust a man-made doctrine never mentioned in scripture, the doctrine of inerrancy.

Any serious Christian is not interested in supposed errors and will not waste time pondering where they might find an error.

Any serious and honest Christian is interested, especially when presented with a man-made doctrine that will not withstand comparison to what the Bible actually says.

How was it possible for you to believe? Was it by reading the Bible or from hearing someone who reads the Bible? It sure wasn't by hearing that there are "errors" in the Bible. Did you find your errors all by yourself or did you hear them from somebody else?

It was never necessary to have a perfect book to hear and believe the gospel.

As I have noted repeatedly, I found these errors in my own studies of scriptures.

Why have you ignored them or wished them away? How can you expect to have any credibility if you deny obvious truths?

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

You are incorrectly diagramming the sentence in question. As has been noted, the last "them" in the passage is the cloaks, not the animals.

AMR

Possibly, although the sentence doesn't lend itself to that interpretation, otherwise it should read more like: 'They brought the donkey and the colt and laid their cloaks on them, and Jesus sat on the cloaks.'

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

As I predicted..........Watch the dance, dodge ball.....Watch...

Where can we get a copy of the scriptures that are "inspired of God?"

That's what I would like to know.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

I did not address you, devil child. Sit.

Well I agree with cobra's statement (below) and calling him names as I have pointed out is pointless, cobra is just another man like you who believe Jesus is Lord. If you want to call anyone a 'devil child' you can call the Anti-Christ that when he appears, which will be in a few years time and you will know it is him because he will be the Muslim Mahdi:

'Inspiration is not the topic. It is inerrancy. Inspiration never implies inerrancy; inspiration was not a criterion for canonicity; the church fathers considered other writings inspired.'

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

You DON'T like me and it shows. I don't hate either you or Cobra.

Except you trawled through this thread and find the only rude word I used in a conversation with someone else and reported me. Very low. :nono:

I don't 'like' talking to someone who cannot listen thus would generally avoid the both of you in real life.

Except to report me for a rude word I used while talking to someone else. Very petty. :noid:

I would and have prayed for both of you.

And then reported me for that rude word you found. So childish.:carryon:

I can't do more than that and am comfortable leaving you both in God's hands.

Apart from then going to the trouble of reporting me.

i love my Savior and I love His words and instructions and literally have nowhere else to go

except to report me. :chuckle:

Apology accepted.

but you still reported me. :yawn:

Upset? Offended? No.

Yet you felt aggrieved enough to report me still. :argue:

My concern was for you over the matter.

Thanks for your concern and also for reporting me. :juggle:

There is no tear, no anger outburst, nothing you'd call an 'emotion' this side of the screen.

Yeah you're a model Christian except for the hypocrisy.

Let's entertain your accusation for a moment, nevertheless: How 'would' I control my emotions better??

By not reporting me for something I said to someone else perhaps.

I am simply reading your comments and breaking them down into their parts, trying to make sense of them, comparing them to my world view, and giving you feedback.

And then reporting me. :darwinsm:

I'm a better thinker than this. Comparison to one-up you back?

You definitely one-up me there.:thumb:

it is just the content of this reading and my thoughts given back over the matter.

Plus the reporting. :cigar:

All I am saying is, I don't tend to echo back the exact same thing said to me.

No you just do a sneaky report instead.:Shimei:

Rather, I try and think where it came from and why it is there.

And then report. :wave:

You can go ahead and question my walk with Jesus, but it'd be BETTER if you contemplated what that might actually look like, getting to know me, and being of service.

I think I know you now. :sherlock:

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Do a search for all instances of the word in the Bible.
נָצַר - natsar H5341

• to guard, watch, watch over, keep
  • (Qal)
    • to watch, guard, keep
    • to preserve, guard from dangers
    • to keep, observe, guard with fidelity
    • to guard, keep secret
    • to be kept close, be blockaded
    • watchman (participle)

The word is frequently used for God watching over people and for people obeying God's instructions, as in these examples:

Psalm 31:23 23 O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth H5341 the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.​

Psalm 105:45 45 That they might observe his statutes, and keep H5341 his laws. Praise ye the LORD.​

"Them" in Psalms 12:7 is referring to the "faithful" mentioned in Psalms 12:1

Isaiah means God's actual Words not the His words written in a book. Otherwise we would still have the originals (and that includes the misquotes made by the writers e.g. one donkey or two).

The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever. Isaiah 40:8

 

[john w]

That's what I would like to know.

Nice side step...

Where can we get a copy of the scriptures that are "inspired of God?"

 

[john w]

Well I agree with cobra's statement (below) and calling him names as I have pointed out is pointless,

Name calling is scriptural. Yes, I name call, marking/identifying/exposing the wolves, to the sheep/babes, so they will not get spiritually raped, devoured, by these same ravenous wolves, as commanded, by the LORD God. Why don't you? Rhetorical q-it is because you do not have the scriptures. Poor you, still talking about these mystical theoretical scriptures, that you don't have.

cobra is just another man like you who believe Jesus is Lord.

No, he is neither a man, nor is he a believer that Jesus is Lord, as no man would display the lack of conviction as he does, nor would any fellow member of the boc try to talk others out of their faith in the "volume of the book," so stuff your approval of him, as to bless where the LORD God disapproves, and to make apologies where the LORD God calls us to "quit like men," and calls us to assert, with conviction, backbone, though it may be the aptest method of securing popular applause, as a man pleaser, in this alleged "sophisticated" age in which we live, is cruelty to mankind, and treachery to heaven.

If you want to call anyone a 'devil child' you can call the Anti-Christ that when he appears, which will be in a few years time and you will know it is him because he will be the Muslim Mahdi:

Stuff your deceit. He is a child of the devil. My evidence? Him.

'Inspiration is not the topic. It is inerrancy. Inspiration never implies inerrancy; inspiration was not a criterion for canonicity; the church fathers considered other writings inspired.'

I stay on topic-stuff your spin, deceit, and stay out of my way. Dig? Good. The scripture is w/o error,by definition, "the scripture of truth"(which is another bible passage you wolves also assert is in error)and I, and my other fellow bible believers, in contrast to you scamming bible correctors/rejecters/mystics/agnostics, have it in our hands, despite protests of you,and your fellow devil children, and frauds, con artists, scammers, as you grind your wolf teeth, as you read this post.


Be gone, wolfie. Stay out of our territory. I do not like wolves.....saint John W I am.