Scripture. What is considered Scripture?

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
Zenn is a Greek expert, perhaps we can get his opinion.

But I think verse 6 tells the story:
And Jesus went with them, but when he was not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to say to him...
The centurion sent to Jesus as Jesus approached the house. That means the centurion was not with Jesus.

What do you think?

Zenn is, or says he is, a Greek expert?

I don't want to stretch this too far. There are a lot of possible explanations.
The simplest is likely true.

However, it is not impossible that, the centurion, having secured Jesus' promise to come, went on ahead to make ready and, was struck by the fact that his house, and station in life as a Roman, was completely unsuitable for a true prophet of God to have anything to do with. Perhaps his friends told him that Jews were forbidden to enter the house of a Gentile, so he quickly turned to them attending to his servant and asked them to tell Jesus to simply give the command for healing instead of lowering Himself to enter his house. Then, as Jesus was close to the house, He saw the centurion in the window and spoke the words of Matt 8:13KJV so that all could hear and witness that Jesus had healed, at a distance, by command only.

The only fly in this ointment are the words "Go thy way..." which seem to suggest physical movement back to his house. But this phrase is often used as a simple dismissal with the intent to bring things to a conclusion as in: "Return to your normal life, your desire has been granted.". Suffice it to say, if I was a movie script writer, I am confident that I could put together a scene that would satisfy all of the requirements of Matthew and Luke in quite a natural way.

Of course, if we had been there, witnessing the event, we would have all the information. What do you think?
 
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2003cobra

New member
George,
I don’t know Zenn declares himself a Greek expert, but my experience with him has led me to that conclusion.

Let’s look at the text, and I will insert some comments in italics:

When he entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, appealing to him and saying, clearly stated that the centurion came and spoke ‘Lord, my servant is lying at home paralysed, in terrible distress.’ And he said to him, ‘I will come and cure him.’ The centurion answered, clearly stated that the centurion replied to the statement of Jesus ‘Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof; but only speak the word, and my servant will be healed. For I am also a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to one, “Go”, and he goes, and to another, “Come”, and he comes, and to my slave, “Do this”, and the slave does it.’ When Jesus heard him, he was amazed and said to those who followed him, clearly stated that people were there following the centurion, who must have been there if he was followed ‘Truly I tell you, in no one in Israel have I found such faith. I tell you, many will come from east and west and will eat with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, while the heirs of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ And to the centurion Jesus said, clearly stated that Jesus spoke to the centurion ‘Go; let it be done for you according to your faith.’ clearly stated that Jesus told the centurion to go And the servant was healed in that hour. [Matthew 8:5-13 (NRSV)]



After Jesus had finished all his sayings in the hearing of the people, he entered Capernaum. A centurion there had a slave whom he valued highly, and who was ill and close to death. When he heard about Jesus, he sent some Jewish elders to him, clearly stated that The centurion sent people asking him to come and heal his slave. When they came to Jesus, they appealed to him earnestly, saying, ‘He is worthy of having you do this for him, for he loves our people, and it is he who built our synagogue for us.’ And Jesus went with them, but when he was not far from the house, the centurion sent friends clearly stated that the centurion sent people to say to him, ‘Lord, do not trouble yourself, for I am not worthy to have you come under my roof; therefore I did not presume to come to you. clearly stated that the centurion did not come to Jesus But only speak the word, and let my servant be healed. For I also am a man set under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to one, “Go”, and he goes, and to another, “Come”, and he comes, and to my slave, “Do this”, and the slave does it.’ When Jesus heard this he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd that followed him, he said, ‘I tell you, not even in Israel have I found such faith.’ When those who had been sent returned to the house, they found the slave in good health. [Luke 7:1-10 (NRSV)]

Of course, if we had been there, witnessing the event, we would have all the information. What do you think?
I think Matthew is very clear the centurion came and spoke to Jesus, and Luke is very clear the centurion did not come to Jesus.

I find the error evident.

Luke wrote later and told us he investigated and interviewed eyewitnesses. I think there was a little exaggeration by the time Luke heard the story.
 

2003cobra

New member
Perhaps I should add that whether the man came himself or sent others is a significant difference in the story, or several significant differences,

A Roman centurion physically coming to a Jew who was not a Roman citizen asking for a favor is in one story but not the other.

A Roman centurion who believed so earnestly, whose faith was so great, that he could trust for healing without even seeing the healer is in one story and not in the other.
 

daqq

Well-known member
Perhaps I should add that whether the man came himself or sent others is a significant difference in the story, or several significant differences,

A Roman centurion physically coming to a Jew who was not a Roman citizen asking for a favor is in one story but not the other.

A Roman centurion who believed so earnestly, whose faith was so great, that he could trust for healing without even seeing the healer is in one story and not in the other.

As already stated, they are not the same story and they were never intended to be taken as such, and therefore your crying "foul!" is the error. Moreover most everything you have cried foul over is either your misunderstanding of the text and how things are written, (especially in genealogies), or the error itself is due to you yourself putting too much trust in translators and their translations which have it wrong in some places, (not actual errors in the original languages but mere translation issues). The supposed surface errors are there to test our love for the Father and His Word: many of them are there intentionally so that you may prove your love, that you may prove yourself to be a true "Berean", to reveal whether or not you have the patient endurance and faithfulness of the holy ones, that you may find that pearl of great price in your long and steady search, to prove whether or not you do truly indeed seek first the kingdom of Elohim and his righteousness, so that all these things might be added unto you in your good and expected end over the long-walk.

It is one thing to honestly question from a standing of belief, so as to seek out the truth and learn it, but it is quite another thing to question from a stance of disbelief and skepticism: if you seek to prove that the Word has sin, (error), then you will no doubt find what you want because that is what you are looking for. The High Priest has two stones in his hidden pouch beneath the breastplate, the Urim and the Thummim, and the one is a white-light stone, (of approval), while the other is a stone of black light: be careful he does not give you what you came looking for, for he has all authority in the heavens and the earth to give to every man according to his deeds; and if the light that is in you be darkness, how great is that darkness.
 
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Zeke

Well-known member
The serious man behind the curtain does weld the mighty fear card, a very convincing mind ride that ends up being hot air at the end of the story where fear is defanged, and exposed, as a dream of a lifetime.
 

Zeke

Well-known member
Nevilles grasp of the story is worth repeating "All religions have been founded upon this basic principle, that in the beginning God created heaven and earth and everything that in them is, that He had nothing whatever out of which to make them but Himself, that there was nothing anywhere that was, but what was made of God, but what was God,—absolutely nothing. This being true, and it is what the Bible teaches, and it is what I believe,—this being true, then there is absolutely nothing in heaven or on earth but what is God, or good. What is this knowledge? What is this “tree of the knowledge of good and evil?”Tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil Why, it is the separation of ourselves from this truth of our oneness with God. It is a recognition of something else besides God here on this earth plane and in the heavens above. It is a consciousness which believes in and separates itself from this great, wonderful, constructive and harmonious power of the universe which we call by various names, but which is commonly called God. And when we come into a consciousness of our separation from God, when we create the belief and become so intellectual that we find something else in the universe besides God we surely do die, for all that is greatest, all that is highest, all that is most holy, begins to wither as a result of that separation in our consciousness. And so when we eat of this ” tree of the knowledge of good and evil,” when we begin to see the ” evil” in people and things instead of the good or God in them, when we begin to develop a consciousness that the world and most of the people in it are ” bad,” we then begin to relate with people and things whose expressions are destructive in our lives, and we attract the ” bad ” things to us. In this consciousness we do surely die. We are dead to all the higher, more constructive and harmonious conditions; a death many times worse than could be the death of the physical body. How did man begin to eat of that tree? Through his intellect, through his reason, through his logic. The brain was given to man for the purpose of using it as a companion, as a handmaiden, to his inspiration, illumination, and revelation; but he has taken it, together with his reason and logic, and used them to bury his illumination, inspiration, and revelation. He has said to himself again and again, ” It cannot be true,” ” it is impossible for it to be true,” when he has had some wonderful inspiration or illumination, and instead of using his reason and logic to work out his illumination, inspiration, or revelation in form on the objective plane, where it could be used by all the rest of mankind, he has set his brain, the physical organ through which the God-consciousness sends its expression to every part of the body, to kill out his inspiration, to kill out his glorious, wonderful illumination, and the result could only be the non-expression or ” death” of all his higher ideals as long as this condition existed."]All religions have been founded upon this basic principle, that in the beginning God created heaven and earth and everything that in them is, that He had nothing whatever out of which to make them but Himself, that there was nothing anywhere that was, but what was made of God, but what was God,—absolutely nothing. This being true, and it is what the Bible teaches, and it is what I believe,—this being true, then there is absolutely nothing in heaven or on earth but what is God, or good. What is this knowledge? What is this “tree of the knowledge of good and evil?”Tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil Why, it is the separation of ourselves from this truth of our oneness with God. It is a recognition of something else besides God here on this earth plane and in the heavens above. It is a consciousness which believes in and separates itself from this great, wonderful, constructive and harmonious power of the universe which we call by various names, but which is commonly called God. And when we come into a consciousness of our separation from God, when we create the belief and become so intellectual that we find something else in the universe besides God we surely do die, for all that is greatest, all that is highest, all that is most holy, begins to wither as a result of that separation in our consciousness. And so when we eat of this ” tree of the knowledge of good and evil,” when we begin to see the ” evil” in people and things instead of the good or God in them, when we begin to develop a consciousness that the world and most of the people in it are ” bad,” we then begin to relate with people and things whose expressions are destructive in our lives, and we attract the ” bad ” things to us. In this consciousness we do surely die. We are dead to all the higher, more constructive and harmonious conditions; a death many times worse than could be the death of the physical body. How did man begin to eat of that tree? Through his intellect, through his reason, through his logic. The brain was given to man for the purpose of using it as a companion, as a handmaiden, to his inspiration, illumination, and revelation; but he has taken it, together with his reason and logic, and used them to bury his illumination, inspiration, and revelation. He has said to himself again and again, ” It cannot be true,” ” it is impossible for it to be true,” when he has had some wonderful inspiration or illumination, and instead of using his reason and logic to work out his illumination, inspiration, or revelation in form on the objective plane, where it could be used by all the rest of mankind, he has set his brain, the physical organ through which the God-consciousness sends its expression to every part of the body, to kill out his inspiration, to kill out his glorious, wonderful illumination, and the result could only be the non-expression or ” death” of all his higher ideals as long as this condition existed.

Absolute truth so help me God.
 

2003cobra

New member
As already stated, they are not the same story and they were never intended to be taken as such, and therefore your crying "foul!" is the error. Moreover most everything you have cried foul over is either your misunderstanding of the text and how things are written, (especially in genealogies), or the error itself is due to you yourself putting too much trust in translators and their translations which have it wrong in some places, (not actual errors in the original languages but mere translation issues). The supposed surface errors are there to test our love for the Father and His Word: many of them are there intentionally so that you may prove your love, that you may prove yourself to be a true "Berean", to reveal whether or not you have the patient endurance and faithfulness of the holy ones, that you may find that pearl of great price in your long and steady search, to prove whether or not you do truly indeed seek first the kingdom of Elohim and his righteousness, so that all these things might be added unto you in your good and expected end over the long-walk.

It is one thing to honestly question from a standing of belief, so as to seek out the truth and learn it, but it is quite another thing to question from a stance of disbelief and skepticism: if you seek to prove that the Word has sin, (error), then you will no doubt find what you want because that is what you are looking for. The High Priest has two stones in his hidden pouch beneath the breastplate, the Urim and the Thummim, and the one is a white-light stone, (of approval), while the other is a stone of black light: be careful he does not give you what you came looking for, for he has all authority in the heavens and the earth to give to every man according to his deeds; and if the light that is in you be darkness, how great is that darkness.

If you are claiming these stories describe two different historical events, I find that without credibility.

If you are claiming they are both just stories and do not reflect historical events, I find that without credibility.

If you are claiming the errors were put there as a test of our love of the Father, I find that without credibility.

If you would like to claim the errors are there so we will not embrace the false doctrine of Biblical inerrancy, I will consider that.
 

Zeke

Well-known member
If you are claiming these stories describe two different historical events, I find that without credibility.

If you are claiming they are both just stories and do not reflect historical events, I find that without credibility.

If you are claiming the errors were put there as a test of our love of the Father, I find that without credibility.

If you would like to claim the errors are there so we will not embrace the false doctrine of Biblical inerrancy, I will consider that.

A far more prudent issue is interpretation, and the levels/rungs one should climb in understanding from the foundation of the rudimentary teaching to flesh onward past Galatians 4:1, Matt 11:11, to Galatians 1:12 the rungs of revelation between you and the Christ within.
 

Lon

Well-known member
I largely agree.
...

If anything it is just of interest and something that we might learn from i.e. if we could try to find out why Matthews genealogy misses those 3 or 4 people who are included in Chronicles then we might further our understanding of something very useful? But simply ignoring this 'discrepancy' like all the others (small as they may be) then we learn nothing.

Appreciate that. It leaves Cobra all by himself on TOL. I don't know why his goal on TOL is to ostracize, especially given his quoting repeatedly Dr. Daniel Wallace saying it isn't a core doctrine (to him). You'd think it was to Cobra, which makes it an odd thread and him an odd person to me. Cobra makes it a core doctrine, himself. I do believe it important. Core? Matthew 4:4 John 6:68 Where else can I go? Not only won't back-down, can't. Only His are the words of life.
 

Lon

Well-known member
John W said a lot of bad things too. Worst name caller I've seen on here.

I try to look past that to what one is really saying. Not only that, John really held his tongue (if you can believe that, I'm proud of him). He only said that which he believed, that Cobra was attacking his flock here on TOL. Realize it is there website and I generally give them the benefit of the doubt. Their theological position of Mid Acts, is often brutally attacked. They do have to watch out for their flock as such.

So, rather, In between those are important verses. In the end, God's word does what He desires. All our so many words are as nothing next to posted scriptures. Isaiah 55:11 John 6:63,68 I have no other car to drive. In Him
 

Lon

Well-known member
You might as well give up on the insults, Lon.

You can’t run me off with bad words. You need to deal with facts.

You certainly can’t intimidate me with your claims of academic success, as I have had my own as well as success in business.
:chuckle: Mine is a theology degree, accompanied with another.

The 2003 Cobra name refers to one of my cars, a 2003 Mustang Cobra convertible, which I bought new back in June of 2002. It was the first year there was a supercharged Mustang available.
No doubt BUT coincidence? Why in the wide world of sports did you choose the name of a serpent for a theology website. You aren't too bright when it comes to important matters. One day you may do better and despite this incredible disagreement we might converse better. You are a bit socially inept and don't put your best foot forward. You kind of get on your hobby-horses without a desire to meet and know anyone in the body of Christ first, etc. etc.
 

daqq

Well-known member
If you are claiming these stories describe two different historical events, I find that without credibility.

If you are claiming they are both just stories and do not reflect historical events, I find that without credibility.

If you are claiming the errors were put there as a test of our love of the Father, I find that without credibility.

If you would like to claim the errors are there so we will not embrace the false doctrine of Biblical inerrancy, I will consider that.

Just as I said was true of you; you will only entertain what you are already looking to find, and anything else outside of your "search" you will not entertain: and the only thing that counts in your mind and mindset is what you yourself "find", whether "credible", or whether "without credibility", for you have set yourself up as the sole arbitrator and judge of what is credible and what is not. However that is not how faith works: you are asked to believe, trust, and put your faith in the Word of Elohim: you are not asked to understand it all as soon as you read it. Moreover I find it fascinating that I had already told someone else that this would be true of you before you admitted it here. :)
 

2003cobra

New member
Appreciate that. It leaves Cobra all by himself on TOL. I don't know why his goal on TOL is to ostracize, especially given his quoting repeatedly Dr. Daniel Wallace saying it isn't a core doctrine (to him). You'd think it was to Cobra, which makes it an odd thread and him an odd person to me. Cobra makes it a core doctrine, himself. I do believe it important. Core? Matthew 4:4 John 6:68 Where else can I go? Not only won't back-down, can't. Only His are the words of life.
And the doctrine of inerrancy, a man-made doctrine not even mentioned in scripture, is not found in His words, the words of life.
 

2003cobra

New member
I try to look past that to what one is really saying. Not only that, John really held his tongue (if you can believe that, I'm proud of him). He only said that which he believed, that Cobra was attacking his flock here on TOL. Realize it is there website and I generally give them the benefit of the doubt. Their theological position of Mid Acts, is often brutally attacked. They do have to watch out for their flock as such.

So, rather, In between those are important verses. In the end, God's word does what He desires. All our so many words are as nothing next to posted scriptures. Isaiah 55:11 John 6:63,68 I have no other car to drive. In Him
I did not attack anyone’s flock.

How does one even have a flock on a forum?

I pointed out that the doctrine of Biblical inerrancy is not found in scripture and is inconsistent with scripture.
 

2003cobra

New member
:chuckle: Mine is a theology degree, accompanied with another.
Take care that you do not let that give you an unreasonable bias, as it did those first century lawyers and theologians who did not recognize the Saviour when He appeared.
No doubt BUT coincidence? Why in the wide world of sports did you choose the name of a serpent for a theology website. You aren't too bright when it comes to important matters. One day you may do better and despite this incredible disagreement we might converse better. You are a bit socially inept and don't put your best foot forward. You kind of get on your hobby-horses without a desire to meet and know anyone in the body of Christ first, etc. etc.
Snakes are God’s creatures, too.

You call me socially inept, not too bright, and take pride in your theology degree after soiling your reputation with statements including:
You can't think out of a paper bag and assume everybody else is just as bad. Be truthful, C's and C- in school, right? It shows...You can go sit in the back of the class now and put your head down in shame for your disobedience...You are too thick to be taught...Were you raised in a one room school house where they had to pass you because you were all below par?...I'm smarter than you...you are not intelligent enough to talk to me.

I find that incredible.
 

2003cobra

New member
Just as I said was true of you; you will only entertain what you are already looking to find, and anything else outside of your "search" you will not entertain: and the only thing that counts in your mind and mindset is what you yourself "find", whether "credible", or whether "without credibility", for you have set yourself up as the sole arbitrator and judge of what is credible and what is not. However that is not how faith works: you are asked to believe, trust, and put your faith in the Word of Elohim: you are not asked to understand it all as soon as you read it. Moreover I find it fascinating that I had already told someone else that this would be true of you before you admitted it here. :)
I gave you my opinion after reading your post.

If you present credible arguments, I will listen. But you did not comment on my post in a meaningful way. So I ask specifically:

Are claiming these stories describe two different historical events?

Are claiming they are both just stories and do not reflect historical events?

Are claiming the errors were put there as a test of our love of the Father?

Are you claiming the errors are there so we will not embrace the false doctrine of Biblical inerrancy?

I would appreciate your clear answers.

Also, where are we called to have faith in the man-made doctrine of inerrancy? Not in the scriptures.
 

Lon

Well-known member
Take care that you do not let that give you an unreasonable bias, as it did those first century lawyers and theologians who did not recognize the Saviour when He appeared.
a good many of them did.

Snakes are God’s creatures, too.
So is Satan :noway: :doh: I WILL get you to think. I know I will.

You call me socially inept, not too bright
...Not too unkindly.
and take pride in your theology degree
Why not? I earned it. You didn't. :think:

after soiling your reputation with statements including
You can't think out of a paper bag and assume everybody else is just as bad. Be truthful, C's and C- in school, right? It shows...You can go sit in the back of the class now and put your head down in shame for your disobedience...You are too thick to be taught...Were you raised in a one room school house where they had to pass you because you were all below par?...I'm smarter than you...you are not intelligent enough to talk to me.

I find that incredible.
Probably the second degree talking there. Soiled? No. It used to be 'politically correct' to not say such things. I believe scripture not politics is a better guide. I really don't have a problem hitting pride (yours the actual arrogance) in its gut. You are an INCREDIBLY prideful man. I have no problem bumping heads with a thick head. It doesn't hurt hard heads. Whatever it takes.

I did not attack anyone’s flock.

How does one even have a flock on a forum?
It isn't my flock either. It'd behoove you to know where you are posting, no? There are a LOT of presuppositions with a specific theological bent here. I try not to step on toes, but I'm not of that small group either, I just happen to agree with them on a good many points. You'd be wise to read a little more of the threads before delving further into this forum. As far as members: Eclectic, all over the place from Christians to pagans. As far as the theological stance: representing a specific theology group and one that is rather self-protective because they have to be (for the most part).

I pointed out that the doctrine of Biblical inerrancy is not found in scripture and is inconsistent with scripture.
This particular was to Watchman. I'd simply say the same to you however: Look past the accusation, or name-calling or however you see it. The verses are what is worth paying attention to, on that note:
And the doctrine of inerrancy, a man-made doctrine not even mentioned in scripture, is not found in His words, the words of life.
:doh: Then where are they, 2003 Mustang?
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
Just as I said was true of you; you will only entertain what you are already looking to find, and anything else outside of your "search" you will not entertain: and the only thing that counts in your mind and mindset is what you yourself "find", whether "credible", or whether "without credibility", for you have set yourself up as the sole arbitrator and judge of what is credible and what is not. However that is not how faith works: you are asked to believe, trust, and put your faith in the Word of Elohim: you are not asked to understand it all as soon as you read it. Moreover I find it fascinating that I had already told someone else that this would be true of you before you admitted it here. :)
Yes, you did say that.

- December 25th, 2017 09:29 AMReport
Merry Christmas to you too Patrick. :)
[MENTION=17195]daqq[/MENTION] - Cobra has already been soundly refuted but wants to pretend the scripture does not teach what it teaches so that he may continue with the most important thing in his mind, which is, according to his own mindset, that the scripture is full of contradictions and blatant errors. You can prove him wrong up one side and down the other and he will not hear you: for if he truly "hears", then his whole point for being here is nullified and he himself is the one who is in error. Moreover, in order to prove a single accusation to be wrong, it takes ten times as much work as it took the accuser to make the accusation. Thus I would necessarily need to essentially take over that thread to engage him there, (so instead I proved him wrong here, lol, but one must follow the whole thread to truly see it). ;)
 

2003cobra

New member
Lon asks about the Words of Life
Then where are they, 2003 Mustang?

The words of life, the Message of God to mankind, are found in the preaching and teaching of His people. They are also found in the scriptures, which are records of the preaching and teaching and events of the early church.

The claim that every word in the Bible is the Word of God is a claim not made in scripture. It is a man-made claim. The Bible never claims to be, in its entirety, the Word of God.

You have heard and repeated the falsehoods so long, and have invested so much of your time and efforts in dedication to these false ideas, that you seem incapable of recognizing the obvious truths — just as you refuse to see the errors that are obvious in the text.
 

2003cobra

New member
Yes, you did say that.

- December 25th, 2017 09:29 AMReport
Merry Christmas to you too Patrick. :)
[MENTION=17195]daqq[/MENTION] - Cobra has already been soundly refuted but wants to pretend the scripture does not teach what it teaches so that he may continue with the most important thing in his mind, which is, according to his own mindset, that the scripture is full of contradictions and blatant errors. You can prove him wrong up one side and down the other and he will not hear you: for if he truly "hears", then his whole point for being here is nullified and he himself is the one who is in error. Moreover, in order to prove a single accusation to be wrong, it takes ten times as much work as it took the accuser to make the accusation. Thus I would necessarily need to essentially take over that thread to engage him there, (so instead I proved him wrong here, lol, but one must follow the whole thread to truly see it). ;)
I never claimed the scripture is full of contradictions.

So whoever claimed that has chosen to bear false witness.

Whoever shares in doing that participates in the sin.
 
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