Salvation by Being Good

[steko]

So what are you going to do with the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus said, "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be the Children of God?" And, what are you going to do with the scripture in the OP? Ignore it? And the several scriptures in post #14? You just going to sweep them all away with the brush of your hand?

What can you possibly do with the Sermon on the Mount?
At that time you would have been without Christ, being an alien from the commonwealth of Israel, and a stranger from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world!

Eph 2:12

If you could get in a time machine and go to the Sermon on the Mount, the Lord Jesus wouldn't even talk to you and the Jewish multitude would have called you 'uncircumcised' and barred you from the site.
And you think He was talking to you. :nono:

2Ti 2:15* Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.*

 

[glorydaz]

It's not a different standard, it's a new door into grace so that people can get help with overcoming their sin. The standard of good conduct is still preached in the rest of the New Testament.

Being judged by our conduct and being eternally saved by not being wicked was not altered at the cross but continued to be affirmed in the New Testament as can be seen by....

Paul informs us the wrath of God is brought on by poor conduct, not lack of faith: “The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness.” (Rom. 1:18)


Paul, writing to Christians, explains how Christians will receive eternal life: “For [God] will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life...” (Rom. 2:6-7)

Paul taught us that the heathen who never performed the outward acts of the Jewish Law such as circumcision or keeping the Sabbath would be counted as if they had if they fulfilled the righteous requirements of the Law: “If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised?” (Rom. 2:26)​

It's called the Roman Road for a reason. Paul speaks or the entire history of man, and you pick out what he writes concerning how God dealt with people before the cross...the time of ignorance at which God winked. Acts 17:30

Read on in Romans and you'll see how much you've missed about the righteousness of faith, of those who go about trying to establish their own righteousness.

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.​

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:​

Read what Paul teaches about the law...what law keeping can never do and was never meant to do.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.​

Then Paul adds this doosey: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Php. 2:12) What? What’s there to work out and be afraid of when you have faith? Did Paul not get the memo that there is nothing to work out for those who have faith?

It's only a doozey if you change the verse to read "work FOR you own salvation". You are reading your own doctrine into that verse.

Clearly, you are missing the fact that the CROSS makes all the difference.....Law vs. Grace

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.​

 

[glorydaz]

Yes....and then you honor Christ's teachings and follow his example, DOING what he said to do.


"Let your light shine before men, that they may see your fine works and give glory to your Father who is in the heavens." (Matt.5:16)

"Not everyone saying to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens." (Matt.7:21)

"You are my friends if you do what I am commanding you." (John 15:14)

You preach what was possible BEFORE THE CROSS. As opposed to being justified by faith?

I prefer the peace and full assurance of being saved by Grace.

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:​

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.​

 

[meshak]

Yes....and then you honor Christ's teachings and follow his example, DOING what he said to do.


"Let your light shine before men, that they may see your fine works and give glory to your Father who is in the heavens." (Matt.5:16)

"Not everyone saying to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens." (Matt.7:21)

"You are my friends if you do what I am commanding you." (John 15:14)

Those verses are disregarded by most churches.

 

[KingdomRose]

Those verses are disregarded by most churches.

Yes they are, and, unfortunately, by the previous posters here on this thread.

 

[steko]

Hi, Meshak!

 

[meshak]

hello steko.

 

[meshak]

Yes they are, and, unfortunately, by the previous posters here on this thread.

yes.

 

[KingdomRose]

It's nice to see you again, Meshak. I hope you are getting on well.

 

[Krsto]

The man asked what he could do to inherit eternal life, right?

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

Eternal life cannot be inherited or earned. It is a Gift of God.

Yes, sin does earn us spiritual death. No doubt about that. And yes, eternal life can certainly be gotten through Jesus Christ if his life, teaching, death, and resurrection, which are all gifts to mankind, is the means by which one gains faith enough to repent of wickedness - if one needs to repent of wickedness. But none of that negates what Jesus said to the lawyer which was "Love God and man and you shall live." That's all HE needed to do, because that's all that ANYBODY needs to do.

 

[Truster]

You must be a worker of iniquity then.

Being a spiritual brother by new birth and actually working at iniquity are completely different. Your lack of spiritual understanding further confirms the fact...you are no brother of mine.

 

[Krsto]

The summary of the sermon ends thus:

Matt. 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.​

And this somehow negates the fact that people are called to be peacemakers and if they respond they will be considered children of God. Hmmm, not that I can tell. Why not just believe what Jesus said?

 

[Krsto]

Yes....and then you honor Christ's teachings and follow his example, DOING what he said to do.


"Let your light shine before men, that they may see your fine works and give glory to your Father who is in the heavens." (Matt.5:16)

"Not everyone saying to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens." (Matt.7:21)

"You are my friends if you do what I am commanding you." (John 15:14)

Yes, of course, Christians must remain good or be disqualified, but that says nothing about non-Christians who are not wicked and thus are not in need of repenting, like the Gentiles Paul writes about in Rom. 2:26.

 

[Krsto]

Being a spiritual brother by new birth and actually working at iniquity are completely different. Your lack of spiritual understanding further confirms the fact...you are no brother of mine.

Well I know and you said you're not a brother, as in, you're not a spiritual brother by new birth so that left only one option that I could think of.

 

[glorydaz]

Yes, sin does earn us spiritual death. No doubt about that. And yes, eternal life can certainly be gotten through Jesus Christ if his life, teaching, death, and resurrection, which are all gifts to mankind, is the means by which one gains faith enough to repent of wickedness - if one needs to repent of wickedness. But none of that negates what Jesus said to the lawyer which was "Love God and man and you shall live." That's all HE needed to do, because that's all that ANYBODY needs to do.

Repenting of wickedness doesn't give anyone life. Jesus knew the man was not able to love God and his neighbor without the love of God being shed abroad on his heart by the Holy Spirit. The man asked what he could do, and the question should have caused the man to recognize his own inability to love others as he loved himself.

It's exactly like God asking Adam how he knew he was naked. It was a rhetorical question. He wanted Adam to admit what he had done. This man wanted to know what HE could do to merit God's GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE, and NO MAN is able to do so. Are you so self-righteous that you think you could love all men as much as your love yourself? If that is your claim, you are lying to yourself.

 

[Krsto]

What can you possibly do with the Sermon on the Mount?
At that time you would have been without Christ, being an alien from the commonwealth of Israel, and a stranger from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world!

Eph 2:12

If you could get in a time machine and go to the Sermon on the Mount, the Lord Jesus wouldn't even talk to you and the Jewish multitude would have called you 'uncircumcised' and barred you from the site.
And you think He was talking to you. :nono:

2Ti 2:15* Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.*

His teaching sounds rather universal to me, local circumstances notwithstanding. Reminds me of the uncircumcised Roman Centurion about which Peter said, "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons. But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." (Acts 10:34) I wouldn't be surprised if Cornelius had heard someone recite the Sermon on the Mount and decided to live it. They said of him, "And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee." But you want to exclude Cornelius from being accepted by God it sounds to me.

 

[Krsto]

Response to the OP, post #1: I agree that people can't earn their own salvation without Christ. Works and belief go hand-in-hand. We accept Christ and then we act in accordance with his teachings. We must do BOTH.

Of course WE must do both. And those with no knowledge of Christ or who aren't convinced of some 2000 year old story passed on by morons (possibly) who can't provide any real good reason to believe the story, simply need to repent of their wickedness if they are wicked. That's it. Nothing else required. No more hoops to jump through to get God's favor.

 

[glorydaz]

And this somehow negates the fact that people are called to be peacemakers and if they respond they will be considered children of God. Hmmm, not that I can tell. Why not just believe what Jesus said?

Being a peacemaker won't save you, nor will being poor in spirit. Sounds to me like Jesus is speaking of REWARDS not salvation (which is a Gift).

Matt. 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.​

Now look a little farther down the page.

Your righteousness must exceed that of the scribes and pharisees (who kept the letter of the law).

Matt. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.​

Jesus speaks of judging every thought of man's heart. Look at a woman with lust and you've committed adultery. Call a man a fool and you're guilty of killing him...anger.

Matt. 5:21-22 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matt. 5:27-28 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.​

Too many people assume they can meet the standards Jesus has set forth, but the standard is PERFECT. There is no coming short that will earn a man eternal life. There's a reason for that....

Eph. 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.​

 

[Krsto]

It's called the Roman Road for a reason. Paul speaks or the entire history of man, and you pick out what he writes concerning how God dealt with people before the cross...the time of ignorance at which God winked. Acts 17:30

Read on in Romans and you'll see how much you've missed about the righteousness of faith, of those who go about trying to establish their own righteousness.

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.​

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:​

Read what Paul teaches about the law...what law keeping can never do and was never meant to do.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.​

It's only a doozey if you change the verse to read "work FOR you own salvation". You are reading your own doctrine into that verse.

Clearly, you are missing the fact that the CROSS makes all the difference.....Law vs. Grace

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.​

Christ is the end of the particularly Jewish laws such as circumcision, tithing, Sabbath, etc., but not the Law of Jesus, which is, "Love God and love man. Do this and live." I don't think you've quite understood the issue with self-righteousness. It's not good people thinking they are good enough to be acceptable to God, it's bad people who think they get a pass on their wickedness because they got circumcised and follow the other uniquely Jewish laws and had a pedigree stamped "Child of Abraham." Did you notice how often Jesus called these lawkeepers wicked? Did you notice how Paul said he was blameless according to the Law yet he also admitted to being a Jewish terrorist? Does this enter into your theology at all?

 

[steko]

His teaching sounds rather universal to me, local circumstances notwithstanding. Reminds me of the uncircumcised Roman Centurion about which Peter said, "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons. But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." (Acts 10:34) I wouldn't be surprised if Cornelius had heard someone recite the Sermon on the Mount and decided to live it. They said of him, "And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee." But you want to exclude Cornelius from being accepted by God it sounds to me.

Rom 15:8* Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:*

Mat 15:24* But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.*