SALVATION: A "Free Gift" from God for those who believe

[Robert Pate]

You are stuck in your brain dude, you're not reading what I am writing. The Law is the Torah. I'm not talking about that. Please stick to what I said! Once again: Jesus commands us to our first necessary work to "merit" salvation, Matthew 6:14,15:

"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses"

That is a work commanded by Christ if you want to be forgiven; you have to forgive others. Now are you going to sit there and tell me that you are incapable of doing this simple thing?

You don't get it. Jesus also said that we should love our enemies and bless those that persecute us. Like I said, no one can do or keep the law. The law is the very nature and character of God. Jesus kept and fulfilled the law for us, Matthew 5:18. "By the law is the knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20.

You still believe that you are going to be justified by the law. Its not going to happen. You better look for another way to be saved because Catholicism is not going to get it for you.

 

[glorydaz]

Easy and simple are two different things. The point is, it can be done. Its not an impossible command to keep, right?

I say it is impossible without the love of God having been shed abroad on your heart. It's certainly not something that one's salvation can hinge upon.

Of course the good news (Gospel of Grace) accepts nothing of ourselves. We cannot earn or merit our salvation in any way. Its a gift for those who believe/trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. Lest any should boast....."well, I forgive everyone so I'm able to be saved." Let the boasting begin.

Eph. 2:7-9 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.​

Well, that's not what he said. This is one passage where he is crystal clear: "if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses"

Its sort of hard to wiggle out of that one. I must disagree with you.

Indeed, the law is filled with "IFs".

Grace, on the other hand, is freely given to those who believe. According to the richness of His Grace.

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Ephesians 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.​

 

[Robert Pate]

I say it is impossible without the love of God having been shed abroad on your heart. It's certainly not something that one's salvation can hinge upon.

Of course the good news (Gospel of Grace) accepts nothing of ourselves. We cannot earn or merit our salvation in any way. Its a gift for those who believe/trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. Lest any should boast....."well, I forgive everyone so I'm able to be saved." Let the boasting begin.

Eph. 2:7-9 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.​

Indeed, the law is filled with "IFs".

Grace, on the other hand, is freely given to those who believe. According to the richness of His Grace.

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Ephesians 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.​

The law is fulfilled with 0 "IFS".

We had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with Jesus fulfilling the law. The fulfilling and the abolishing of the law was done totally and completely outside of us, Colossians 1:20-22.

 

[beloved57]

The law is fulfilled with 0 "IFS".

We had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with Jesus fulfilling the law. The fulfilling and the abolishing of the law was done totally and completely outside of us, Colossians 1:20-22.

And you teach that sinners Christ did it for are lost and condemned !

 

[Bright Raven]

And you teach that sinners Christ did it for are lost and condemned !

1 John 2:2 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

2 and He Himself is the [a]propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

 

[nikolai_42]

I think the verse about Esau was referring to his birthright, not salvation.

I don't see evidence of that in the chapter, but even if it were the case I don't make a distinction between repentance in different contexts. I see repentance as repentance.

Your points are good ones concerning God working. I couldn't agree more. But there is something to be said for a person's ability to humble themselves in the sight of the Lord, and the power of the pride of life. Pride can get a very strong hold on some more than others. Look at Saul and David for example. Sin has a way of hardening the heart. Yes, we all sin, but not all are equally hard hearted.

I totally agree that the Lord is always working towards our believing. That is the "work of God" - that we believe. What makes it more of a mystery to us might be the fact that God sees into our hearts, and men cannot. Perhaps that is why we ask, "Why some and not others?"

Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.​

I don't see man as a puppet. But since I don't see him as having the libertarian free will that many do, I look at scriptures like that and see behind them the work of God. It's hard (for me) to describe or explain other than to say that it's the power of the Word that the Lord chooses to use to achieve His purpose. And that covers everything from natural disasters to man's salvation. Man doesn't sit there and say "I wish the Lord would send His Word so I could turn to Him" but is utterly either unaware of it or being affected by it (whether in resistance to it or compliance with it). If God had never commanded man to humble himself, it would neither enter into the heart of man to do so nor would it be (in any sense or degree) possible. Now in the frame of mind that man finds himself, he is probably unaware that his ability to even consider repenting depends upon the work of God (through His Word). But the moment he is aware of it, the fact is that it is only because of God's work upon his heart. And then if he does repent, it is only because the Lord has worked that into him. So in the case of Esau, I believe he knew something of his need (because of what he lost) but was unable to get to that place before God where he could regain that standing. And that only because of God's granting or denying. In general, the verse that has been quoted so often (Romans 10:17) has the Word of God at the base of it all. And that is what is the efficacious actor in all these situations. And where the Word finds no place to abide, it isn't because man chooses that, it's because there simply isn't that place. God is required to bring that to reality in a man's heart before it can even be thought of. And He uses the preached word to make men aware (those who will listen) of that need and elicit that response -- all because of the active Word of God.

I suppose that is a really poor summary of a quote attributed to Augustine :

Grant what thou commandest and then command what thou wilt.

I won't call it an attempt at exegesis because I've had that view for longer than I have been aware of Augustine's saying. All things were created by His Word, so it doesn't seem a stretch to me that all things have utter dependence on it.

 

[glorydaz]

The law is fulfilled with 0 "IFS".

We had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with Jesus fulfilling the law. The fulfilling and the abolishing of the law was done totally and completely outside of us, Colossians 1:20-22.

I wasn't talking about fulfilling the law. So I'm not sure what to say.

 

[glorydaz]

And He uses the preached word to make men aware (those who will listen) of that need and elicit that response -- all because of the active Word of God.

Ah, those who will listen. On that we agree. I give God all the credit for His longsuffering in my own life. I give Him all the credit for seeing the hunger in my heart for that which was missing. That which is missing is a connection with our Creator. The Word is the light that draws us and awakens us...the power of God unto salvation.

I don't think we're as far apart as many might think.

 

[Robert Pate]

I wasn't talking about fulfilling the law. So I'm not sure what to say.

You said, "The law is fulfilled with "IF's".

What are the if's?

 

[Robert Pate]

I don't see evidence of that in the chapter, but even if it were the case I don't make a distinction between repentance in different contexts. I see repentance as repentance.



I don't see man as a puppet. But since I don't see him as having the libertarian free will that many do, I look at scriptures like that and see behind them the work of God. It's hard (for me) to describe or explain other than to say that it's the power of the Word that the Lord chooses to use to achieve His purpose. And that covers everything from natural disasters to man's salvation. Man doesn't sit there and say "I wish the Lord would send His Word so I could turn to Him" but is utterly either unaware of it or being affected by it (whether in resistance to it or compliance with it). If God had never commanded man to humble himself, it would neither enter into the heart of man to do so nor would it be (in any sense or degree) possible. Now in the frame of mind that man finds himself, he is probably unaware that his ability to even consider repenting depends upon the work of God (through His Word). But the moment he is aware of it, the fact is that it is only because of God's work upon his heart. And then if he does repent, it is only because the Lord has worked that into him. So in the case of Esau, I believe he knew something of his need (because of what he lost) but was unable to get to that place before God where he could regain that standing. And that only because of God's granting or denying. In general, the verse that has been quoted so often (Romans 10:17) has the Word of God at the base of it all. And that is what is the efficacious actor in all these situations. And where the Word finds no place to abide, it isn't because man chooses that, it's because there simply isn't that place. God is required to bring that to reality in a man's heart before it can even be thought of. And He uses the preached word to make men aware (those who will listen) of that need and elicit that response -- all because of the active Word of God.

I suppose that is a really poor summary of a quote attributed to Augustine :

Grant what thou commandest and then command what thou wilt.

I won't call it an attempt at exegesis because I've had that view for longer than I have been aware of Augustine's saying. All things were created by His Word, so it doesn't seem a stretch to me that all things have utter dependence on it.

God created man with a free will. It is within man's power to do good or to do evil, regardless of the consequences. Cain murdered Abel by his Own free will, God did not make him do it. "Choose this day whom you will serve" The choice is yours, you can chose good or you can serve evil. God does not make people do evil like you want to believe. If you choose to do evil, the choice is yours, not God's.

 

[fishrovmen]

You said, "The law is fulfilled with "IF's".

What are the if's?

Glorydaz said that the law is filled with "ifs", not ful-filled with "ifs".

 

[Robert Pate]

Glorydaz said that the law is filled with "ifs", not ful-filled with "ifs".

You apparently don't know any more about it than she does.

 

[nikolai_42]

God created man with a free will. It is within man's power to do good or to do evil, regardless of the consequences. Cain murdered Abel by his Own free will, God did not make him do it. "Choose this day whom you will serve" The choice is yours, you can chose good or you can serve evil. God does not make people do evil like you want to believe. If you choose to do evil, the choice is yours, not God's.

Where did I say - or insinuate - that the choice was God's? Where did I say - or insinuate - that God made (or even makes) man sin? If you try to force your own conclusions on someone else's statements, you need to back them up. You need to deal with what was said - not what you think was said.

Maybe to try and illustrate (whether or not you will hear what I'm saying) let me ask you this. Is it possible for you to hate your best friend? Is it possible for you to utterly despise and turn from your best friend (or your wife)? Are you free to do that? I suppose one could make the case that it could be done - that someone could choose to utterly ignore, despise, reject, castigate, abhor and utterly abandon someone they truly love. They are certainly "free" to do that. But are they free to do so in their own heart? Can they make themselves do that which is against every inclination of their being? Because, if you recall, Jesus made statements in the sermon on the mount that equate thoughts and inclinations of the heart to sin as though the very act had been carried out. So what chance does an unregenerate, sin-loving God-hater have to do that which he has no inclination to do? That's what you propose with a libertarian free will. That man who is dead in trespasses and sin can choose - in the midst of their lostness - to all of a sudden become good. That man, who loves his sin can (by his own free will) all of a sudden choose to hate it and turn from it.

For someone who considers the Law to be worthless, you put a lot of stock in it when you make statements like you do - that the man who is able to read has the power and freedom to choose to serve and obey God acceptably simply by virtue of his natural, creaturely, innate free will.

 

[fishrovmen]

You apparently don't know any more about it than she does.

I hadn't offered any comments on any points that anyone made, I was pointing out your mis-statement of what Glorydaz said.
You need to learn to read carefully.

 

[fishrovmen]

Where did I say - or insinuate - that the choice was God's? Where did I say - or insinuate - that God made (or even makes) man sin? If you try to force your own conclusions on someone else's statements, you need to back them up. You need to deal with what was said - not what you think was said.

Good points, unfortunately I souldn't expect anything different from Robert after all these years.

 

[glorydaz]

Indeed, the law is filled with "IFs".

Grace, on the other hand, is freely given to those who believe. According to the richness of His Grace.

You said, "The law is fulfilled with "IF's".

What are the if's?

Oh, you misread what I said. I was wondering what you meant.

 

[glorydaz]

For someone who considers the Law to be worthless, you put a lot of stock in it when you make statements like you do - that the man who is able to read has the power and freedom to choose to serve and obey God acceptably simply by virtue of his natural, creaturely, innate free will.

No, but man is able to turn to God and believe. He can't will himself to believe, but He certainly can be persuaded to believe.

He can look and then be given the power by God to serve and obey through the Spirit. That's what the Law of Faith is all about. That's what the Obedience of Faith brings about. That's why the Gospel is the POWER of God unto salvation.

It is one of God's natural laws. Therefore, there is no room for boasting. Man is drawn when Jesus is lifted up, and he is PERSUADED by the Light of the glorious Gospel. At that point, man will CHOOSE whether to turn toward or away from the Light.

Romans 3:26-27 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.​

 

[Robert Pate]

Where did I say - or insinuate - that the choice was God's? Where did I say - or insinuate - that God made (or even makes) man sin? If you try to force your own conclusions on someone else's statements, you need to back them up. You need to deal with what was said - not what you think was said.

Maybe to try and illustrate (whether or not you will hear what I'm saying) let me ask you this. Is it possible for you to hate your best friend? Is it possible for you to utterly despise and turn from your best friend (or your wife)? Are you free to do that? I suppose one could make the case that it could be done - that someone could choose to utterly ignore, despise, reject, castigate, abhor and utterly abandon someone they truly love. They are certainly "free" to do that. But are they free to do so in their own heart? Can they make themselves do that which is against every inclination of their being? Because, if you recall, Jesus made statements in the sermon on the mount that equate thoughts and inclinations of the heart to sin as though the very act had been carried out. So what chance does an unregenerate, sin-loving God-hater have to do that which he has no inclination to do? That's what you propose with a libertarian free will. That man who is dead in trespasses and sin can choose - in the midst of their lostness - to all of a sudden become good. That man, who loves his sin can (by his own free will) all of a sudden choose to hate it and turn from it.

For someone who considers the Law to be worthless, you put a lot of stock in it when you make statements like you do - that the man who is able to read has the power and freedom to choose to serve and obey God acceptably simply by virtue of his natural, creaturely, innate free will.

Man is fallible because he is a sinner, Romans 3:10. You seem to think that fallen man has power over sin. "There is none righteous, no, not one". To believe Calvinism you have to believe that God is the minister of sin and is unjust.

Sinners hear the Gospel, some believe and are born again by the word of God, which is the Gospel, 1 Peter 1:23. Some hear the Gospel and don't believe, Hebrews 4:2. It is all about free will. God does not predestinate people to hell before they are born. To believe that is to sentence yourself to eternal damnation.

I have a lot of respect for God's law because the law reveals the nature and character of God. He is holy, holy, holy beyond human comprehension. This is why I am not under it, nor am I subject to it. To be under the law is to be under a curse, Galatians 3:10. The only one that needs the law are the lawless and disobedient, 1 Timothy 1:9. Christians are not led by laws, the Holy Spirit is their teacher and their guide, John 16:13.

You say a lot, but you seldom quote scripture, which makes me believe that all that you have is religion.

 

[nikolai_42]

No, but man is able to turn to God and believe. He can't will himself to believe, but He certainly can be persuaded to believe.

But that's part of my point - a man isn't persuaded to believe. He either does or he doesn't, otherwise it does become a matter of one's faith resting in man's wisdom. There are certain facets of the gospel and the scriptures that people will concede as a matter of historical and/or reasonable certitude, but that doesn't make them believe. As Paul says, the cross is foolishness to those that are perishing. Unbelief, then, is ultimately irrational. It doesn't defy logic, but it tells man that everything he knows naturally is on the wrong foundation. So if you try to persuade someone to believe, you are sending mixed messages. There is a difference between tearing down imaginations and lies with logic and reason and persuading a man to believe. Reason can only take away all the crutches a man is leaning on - all the excuses he has not to believe - but it can never persuade him to believe. That can only be done by the Holy Spirit. A man either believes or he doesn't. Faith has to be essentially given to a man. And once his eyes are truly opened, it isn't a matter of whether he believes or not. His eyes are open and the truth has dawned and it all starts to make sense because of what the Lord has done in that man's heart. It isn't the man deciding to turn.

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

That's why I like the apostle Paul's conversion - it shows that something was done instantaneously in him that was not ever be done (nor could ever be done) by reason. By man. By persuasion. God just opened his eyes and it wasn't a matter of Paul deciding to believe - he just believed.

He can look and then be given the power by God to serve and obey through the Spirit. That's what the Law of Faith is all about. That's what the Obedience of Faith brings about. That's why the Gospel is the POWER of God unto salvation.

It is one of God's natural laws. Therefore, there is no room for boasting. Man is drawn when Jesus is lifted up, and he is PERSUADED by the Light of the glorious Gospel. At that point, man will CHOOSE whether to turn toward or away from the Light.

As I see it, that man's turning is just the work of God to grant him faith. Now the nature of the "soil" is another question...

Romans 3:26-27 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.​

 

[nikolai_42]

Man is fallible because he is a sinner, Romans 3:10. You seem to think that fallen man has power over sin. "There is none righteous, no, not one". To believe Calvinism you have to believe that God is the minister of sin and is unjust.

Sinners hear the Gospel, some believe and are born again by the word of God, which is the Gospel, 1 Peter 1:23. Some hear the Gospel and don't believe, Hebrews 4:2. It is all about free will. God does not predestinate people to hell before they are born. To believe that is to sentence yourself to eternal damnation.

I have a lot of respect for God's law because the law reveals the nature and character of God. He is holy, holy, holy beyond human comprehension. This is why I am not under it, nor am I subject to it. To be under the law is to be under a curse, Galatians 3:10. The only one that needs the law are the lawless and disobedient, 1 Timothy 1:9. Christians are not led by laws, the Holy Spirit is their teacher and their guide, John 16:13.

You say a lot, but you seldom quote scripture, which makes me believe that all that you have is religion.

Apparently you didn't really read my post.