SALVATION: A "Free Gift" from God for those who believe

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I'm fine with that. Good exercise, though!

Not really. I found it rather fatiguing.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Calvinism is a terrible religion, it tries to make God into something that he is not. We who are Christians are right in opposing it. Not only is it anti-Gospel, it is also anti-Christ and anti-God. Those that have been indoctrinated into that horrible religion are without Christ and are without hope.

I have my doubts about their doctrines.

 

[Truster]

The words "free gift" do not appear in Greek. The word "gift" is not in the Greek. They were introduced by the English translators. The terms that they were used to replace are "charisma" Romans 5:15 and in the rest of the verses you have quoted the term gift was used to replace "oblation" which is transliterated from the Hebrew qorban and of the Hellenic quorban see Mark 7:11

 

[Robert Pate]

The words "free gift" do not appear in Greek. The word "gift" is not in the Greek. They were introduced by the English translators. The terms that they were used to replace are "charisma" Romans 5:15 and in the rest of the verses you have quoted the term gift was used to replace "oblation" which is transliterated from the Hebrew qorban and of the Hellenic quorban see Mark 7:11

There is nothing wrong with the Bible, but there is a whole lot wrong with your doctrine.

 

[Truster]

There is nothing wrong with the Bible, but there is a whole lot wrong with your doctrine.

The scriptures are accurate as originally given. You use the term Bible without any reference to which translation. You have around 900 English translations and paraphrases to choose from.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

There is nothing wrong with the Bible, but there is a whole lot wrong with your doctrine.

Please say that every day into a mirror and maybe you'll start to get things right.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I have my doubts about their doctrines.

I agree, obviously.
It is so weird to see Pate get one or two things right, and his opposites here get one or two different things right, but all of them keep missing the ultimate mark.

 

[Robert Pate]

I agree, obviously.
It is so weird to see Pate get one or two things right, and his opposites here get one or two different things right, but all of them keep missing the ultimate mark.

The ultimate mark is Christ and his Gospel. If you don't have that, you have nothing but religion.

 

[Robert Pate]

The scriptures are accurate as originally given. You use the term Bible without any reference to which translation. You have around 900 English translations and paraphrases to choose from.

I guess that will be your excuse in the judgment.

There is one thing that is perfectly clear and that is that Jesus justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and has reconciled us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

The ultimate mark is Christ and his Gospel.......

I know that.

......If you don't have that, you have nothing but religion.

I know that too. You just stated that Catholic Faith in a nutshell.

Would you like to learn more?

 

[Truster]

I guess that will be your excuse in the judgment.

There is one thing that is perfectly clear and that is that Jesus justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and has reconciled us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

I have no need for excuses nor fear of judgment.

 

[nikolai_42]

I think Paul makes it clear that God did not create us ignorant of His being. We go through life seeking to know Him...except we keep getting distracted by the things of this world But God is long-suffering, and He allows us to go through all the dead ends in this life until He sees we are at our point of greatest need (whether we realize it or not). I know exactly when it was in my own life, and I was "ripe unto the harvest", as I like to call it. It happened through a scripture quoted wrongly by some JW's (John 1:1) and a big nudge from the Spirit. I have no doubt about it. I was then led to an old lady (through a simple ad posted on the wall of our general store asking help getting snow off their roof), and it was there that she preached the basic Gospel, and I believed.

I see it as the picture in the Sistine Chapel. God is reaching down and man is reaching up at that perfect moment in time. There are those who turn away from the light when it draws near, because they love the darkness more than the light. But, God will give everyone the opportunity to turn to Him in faith.

Honestly, I don't disagree. But we tend to look at things from a temporal, creaturely perspective (go figure!). In terms of eternity and God's perspective - who sees all and knows the end from the beginning - things don't look the same way. We are so easily led astray by our feelings and perceptions and our own ideas that even the plain scriptures can be used in wrong ways. And just the huge numbers of different interpretations of various aspects of scripture should provide ample evidence of that. So described from our perspective, I don't discount the fact that God is at work even where we aren't aware of it. And in the sense that we are separated from God there is an appropriation of things spiritual that we must obtain to. But we won't learn what we need to learn unless God is working. Just as the leopard can't change his spots, we can't change who or what we are. So whether we believe or not is a function of who and what we are and can only by changed (as far as I can tell) by God. I am reminded of what the writer of Hebrews detailed :

For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
Hebrews 12:17

Esau met all our requirements for repentance - even obviously wanted it! But God did not grant repentance to him. There was no return for him. A hard verse to read....

But on the flipside, we have the story of Jonah in Nineveh. The Ninevites said this :

Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
Jonah 3:9

And we all know that God did turn and the Babylonians found mercy in God's sight. Something similar is found in Joel 2 where the prophet is speaking about awful judgment and then calls Israel to return to God :

Therefore also now, saith the Lord, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the Lord your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the Lord your God?
Joel 2:12-14

I note 2 things :

1. The certainty of God's restoring the people is left in God's hands.
2. This has to be preached for the people to hear before they will return.

The Word has to be given and God uses that as the vehicle for changing the hearts of the people. But again - it is He that does the changing (and we again have the example where He didn't with Esau). So why does He not allow repentance sometimes? We may attribute it to our sinfulness or unbelief (and that may be true as far as it goes) but there is more at work that is unseen that we do not (and maybe cannot) apprehend that is in view with God. In the end, it is up to God whether we find repentance or not. And I don't see it as being dependent on our ability to (of ourselves) humble ourselves before Him. God may choose to hear or not (for any number of reasons).

So it is incumbent upon us to turn, repent, seek etc... but the outcome is all in God's hands.

And with all that, I am heartily against fatalism.

Spoiler

Please note - none of what I am saying above is rhetorical. I am simply trying to show that framing salvation as it has been framed (just a free gift...just say yes...and that's it) misses the fact that the gospel is the power of God (unto salvation). The way that power is maintained and used says a lot about the God who does so - and about those who are the objects of this power. When one believes upon Christ, they are not just admitting an historical fact or casting a vote - they are being translated from one kingdom to another. They are being moved - wholesale - from darkness to light. From death to life. The whole matter of authority had become new for them. And it doesn't end there. It extends into the heights and depths of the unseen realms of eternity. The very thing in man that (supposedly) makes a decision for Christ can't even do that until it has been changed. No matter how we react, we are all (until we come to Him) under our own authority, seeking our own will, doing our own thing. Thus, we are all at enmity with God. It's a simple fact that can't be grasped until one is "awakened" to what and who he truly is. The gift of eternal life - of life in Christ - is simply not even conceived of as necessary or (in some cases) something to be considered. It is nothing to the sinner and there is nothing in the sinner that makes him truly come to Christ. Not knowledge, not reason, not upbringing. Some things may make it more likely for someone to consider eternal matters - but no man can come to Christ (nor will) unless the Father draws him. He establishes the circumstances of our birth and the arc of our life. And that foreordains many things about the way we see the world and the way we respond to the circumstances of our lives. These circumstances come upon us beyond our control and the whole world is unfolding well beyond our ability to control or foresee its impact on us. So are we to say that a man who is born one way that may predispose him to bitterness and another born in different circumstances that predisposes him to seek out spiritual answers are to be judged on different bases in light of the cross? I can't see that. What I see is that there is this thing that is at the core of every human that is born into this existence. And no matter their conditions, circumstances, natural capabilities etc..., this heart is capable of being understood as being the same for all men who do not know God :

Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.
John 2:23-25

These were men who believed in his name after seeing miracles. But Jesus knew better than to join Himself to them. He knew their hearts. And His evangelism was hardly typical. When the multitudes wanted to follow Him, He essentially drove them away by saying things they had no chance of understanding (John 6). He didn't say they had a choice to follow Him (or not). He didn't say that they had to eat His flesh and drink His blood to gain eternal life. When dealing with what is in man, only God can properly see and address the heart. And until He does, no one is going to truly believe on Christ. So it is the work of God to bring salvation and the crux of the matter is the very heart of man (which man himself doesn't understand - Jeremiah 17:9). That is the only place the distinction can be made and since man himself doesn't understand his own deceit and wickedness, it is short-sighted (at best) to simply offer salvation as a free gift you merely have to open your hand and accept. It is a gift, but it was (and is) very costly. It entails a whole new identity and the putting away of things that the heart will not let go of (unless it is changed). It cuts against yourself in every way conceivable and will require everything of you. No individual will naturally do that. No individual is capable of that. So unless the light truly dawns and a man realizes who and what he is before God, no presentation of the gospel - however powerful and convincing - will result in true conversion. And that's where I see the real importance of this issue. It is a matter of the heart. A matter of what truly is. And it's simple - in natural man, that heart cannot and will not believe because it has no ability to do so nor any inclination in that direction. It is strictly impossible. Jesus even admitted as much - but said that with God all things are possible. And what did He say was the work of God?

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. John 6:29

In other words - unless God brings light, life and faith into the heart, it is in its natural condemned state. No emotional pleas, no reasoning, no nothing is going to change it but a Sovereign act of God. And if God waits for that heart to decide it wants and/or needs Him (without doing anything Himself about it), He will be waiting forever. That's fine for Him, but we don't have quite that long. So the idea that God is a gentleman and will wait until He is invited to do something just doesn't line up with scripture as far as I can tell. The whole story of Israel flies in the face of that.

For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Ezekiel 36:24-28

And He isn't doing this because Israel asked Him to :

Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
Ezekiel 36:22-23

Israel's hatred of their own sin only comes after God does these things :

Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord God, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
Ezekiel 36:31-32

Salvation isn't entirely about just getting the world saved. It's about God completing a work we haven't come close to conceiving of.



Abel had faith.



Okay....but what about Christ's death and resurrection makes it possible to believe it simply because some stranger tells you it happened? Does our natural understanding of God tell us this is true?




I would disagree with the word "ability" there. We have the capacity, but it doesn't necessarily translate (in all cases) to ability. A crippled man has the legs to walk but he is not able to do so. The legs give him the capacity but he has no corresponding ability. Likewise, the Pharisees had ears but they could not hear Christ's word (because they didn't have the Word of God dwelling in them - a prerequisite to hearing, apparently).



As I read that, the "eternal power and Godhead" are what is patently obvious to anyone who hasn't suppressed the truth God has given every man. But nothing seems (as I read it, anyway) to indicate that this extends to the cross. Granted, we in the Western world have no such excuse with bibles being as plentiful as they are. Having said that, Jesus spoke truth in parables so that many would NOT understand (though they heard).



If it is merely speaking of the salvation as the gift - then it is a contingent gift. Contingent upon someone having faith. And if that faith is NOT from God, then there is that whereof someone may boast (I had faith and you didn't).

THE FREE OFFER

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:37

But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
John 5:34

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Matthew 11:28

THE CALL TO SEEK HIM

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Hebrews 11:6

WHAT MUST COME BEFORE SOMEONE WILL SEEK HIM

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44

And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
I receive not honour from men.
But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
John 5:38-42

So to seek Christ, you must have faith. But you also must be drawn. But before you will hear, you must believe. But if faith COMES by hearing, how to untangle that? The Word of God must be foundational - and hearing comes BY that, so it is of God to cause you to hear and believe (by His Word). The very reason the Pharisees didn't believe - they couldn't hear because they did not have His Word (which they couldn't have had if they didn't hear in the first place...)



Why does that need to be different faith from that which was necessary to believe on Christ in the first place?

Oh dear. I feel horribly inadequate to respond to this post. There is so much there, and so much I would like to respond to. If you don't mind, I'd like to come back and take this a piece at a time. As you say, there is so much there.

Take all the time you need. Our sufficiency is of God.

 

[Robert Pate]

I know that.


I know that too. You just stated that Catholic Faith in a nutshell.

Would you like to learn more?

Catholicism is a works religion. Christianity is a faith religion. This is why Paul said, "The Just Shall Live By Faith" Romans 1:17. We live by faith because works count for nothing. God does not accept the works or the obedience of sinners, Romans 3:23. If anyone goes to heaven it will be on the merits of Jesus Christ and not on their own merit. "Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, didn't we... Matthew 7:21-23. This scripture was written for those like yourself that are trusting in their good works to save them.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

......Christianity is a faith religion........

Again, I know that.

Catholicism is a works religion.........

That's a false statement, propaganda. In fact, I will go so far as to call you a liar because it has been proven over and over in this forum that this is NOT true, yet you choose to regurgitate the lie.

Catholicism teaches what Jesus taught, and the MERIT of works is plain and clear - not earning, but merit.

I challenge you to refute this, straight from the mouth of Jesus:

After the Lord's Prayer in Matthew 6:9-13, Jesus commands us to our first necessary work to "merit" salvation, Matthew 6:14,15:

"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses"

BLAM!! That's as plain as the nose on your face. You must DO something - you must forgive others if you are to be forgiven. That is a work, an act of the will. If you do not DO it then you are not forgiven. He makes that clear too.

There is no more clearer example of a work demanded by Jesus!

 

[beloved57]

Catholicism is a works religion. Christianity is a faith religion. This is why Paul said, "The Just Shall Live By Faith" Romans 1:17. We live by faith because works count for nothing. God does not accept the works or the obedience of sinners, Romans 3:23. If anyone goes to heaven it will be on the merits of Jesus Christ and not on their own merit. "Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, didn't we... Matthew 7:21-23. This scripture was written for those like yourself that are trusting in their good works to save them.

You teach that sinners Christ shed His Blood for are lost.

Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk

 

[Robert Pate]

Again, I know that.


That's a false statement, propaganda. In fact, I will go so far as to call you a liar because it has been proven over and over in this forum that this is NOT true, yet you choose to regurgitate the lie.

Catholicism teaches what Jesus taught, and the MERIT of works is plain and clear - not earning, but merit.

I challenge you to refute this, straight from the mouth of Jesus:

After the Lord's Prayer in Matthew 6:9-13, Jesus commands us to our first necessary work to "merit" salvation, Matthew 6:14,15:

"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses"

BLAM!! That's as plain as the nose on your face. You must DO something - you must forgive others if you are to be forgiven. That is a work, an act of the will. If you do not DO it then you are not forgiven. He makes that clear too.

There is no more clearer example of a work demanded by Jesus!

Jesus was a teacher of the law. Here is the problem, no one can do or keep the law, it is a human impossibility. Even if you were able to keep the law the law does not justify. "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20.

The law was given to show us that we are sinners, not to justify us. Catholics make the same mistake that the Pharisees made by trying to please God by obeying the law. It didn't work for the Pharisees and it is not going to work for the Catholics.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

.......After the Lord's Prayer in Matthew 6:9-13, Jesus commands us to our first necessary work to "merit" salvation, Matthew 6:14,15:

"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses"

BLAM!! That's as plain as the nose on your face. You must DO something - you must forgive others if you are to be forgiven. That is a work, an act of the will. If you do not DO it then you are not forgiven. He makes that clear too.

There is no more clearer example of a work demanded by Jesus.........

Jesus was a teacher of the law. Here is the problem, no one can do or keep the law..........

You are stuck in your brain dude, you're not reading what I am writing. The Law is the Torah. I'm not talking about that. Please stick to what I said! Once again: Jesus commands us to our first necessary work to "merit" salvation, Matthew 6:14,15:

"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses"

That is a work commanded by Christ if you want to be forgiven; you have to forgive others. Now are you going to sit there and tell me that you are incapable of doing this simple thing?

 

[glorydaz]

Honestly, I don't disagree. But we tend to look at things from a temporal, creaturely perspective (go figure!). In terms of eternity and God's perspective - who sees all and knows the end from the beginning - things don't look the same way. We are so easily led astray by our feelings and perceptions and our own ideas that even the plain scriptures can be used in wrong ways. And just the huge numbers of different interpretations of various aspects of scripture should provide ample evidence of that. So described from our perspective, I don't discount the fact that God is at work even where we aren't aware of it. And in the sense that we are separated from God there is an appropriation of things spiritual that we must obtain to. But we won't learn what we need to learn unless God is working. Just as the leopard can't change his spots, we can't change who or what we are. So whether we believe or not is a function of who and what we are and can only by changed (as far as I can tell) by God. I am reminded of what the writer of Hebrews detailed :

For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
Hebrews 12:17

Esau met all our requirements for repentance - even obviously wanted it! But God did not grant repentance to him. There was no return for him. A hard verse to read....

I think the verse about Esau was referring to his birthright, not salvation.


Your points are good ones concerning God working. I couldn't agree more. But there is something to be said for a person's ability to humble themselves in the sight of the Lord, and the power of the pride of life. Pride can get a very strong hold on some more than others. Look at Saul and David for example. Sin has a way of hardening the heart. Yes, we all sin, but not all are equally hard hearted.

I totally agree that the Lord is always working towards our believing. That is the "work of God" - that we believe. What makes it more of a mystery to us might be the fact that God sees into our hearts, and men cannot. Perhaps that is why we ask, "Why some and not others?"

Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.​

 

[glorydaz]

You are stuck in your brain dude, you're not reading what I am writing. The Law is the Torah. I'm not talking about that. Please stick to what I said! Once again: Jesus commands us to our first necessary work to "merit" salvation, Matthew 6:14,15:

"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses"

That is a work commanded by Christ if you want to be forgiven; you have to forgive others. Now are you going to sit there and tell me that you are incapable of doing this simple thing?

That's simple? How simple would it be to forgive the guy who raped and tortured your five year old daughter for days on end before he killed her? That commandment by Christ was the LAW, and it not required for salvation in this age of Grace.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

That's simple? How simple would it be to forgive the guy who raped and tortured your five year old daughter for days on end before he killed her?........

Easy and simple are two different things. The point is, it can be done. Its not an impossible command to keep, right?

.......That commandment by Christ was the LAW, and it not required for salvation in this age of Grace.

Well, that's not what he said. This is one passage where he is crystal clear: "if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses"

Its sort of hard to wiggle out of that one. I must disagree with you.