ah ah ah.... ...now this time YOU are wrong. Salvation IS for all.
SALVATION: A "Free Gift" from God for those who believe
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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ah ah ah.... ...now this time YOU are wrong. Salvation IS for all.
glorydaz
Well-known member
The quote you give is for what our faith should be in....the power of God, not the wisdom of men. The verse doesn't say our faith to believe is bestowed upon us pior to our believing. In fact, the direct link to belief is hearing the Gospel preached...not to being gifted with the faith to believe.
Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Just as Abraham's faith was in the power of God, and not the wisdom of men. Abraham was persuaded to believe by the power of God's word. There was no reasoning involved....if reasoning is involved, it isn't faith.
Romans 4:20-21 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Amen.
Yep.
beloved57
Well-known member
False statement
One is NOT given faith to believe. That is Calvinist/reformed doctrine. Today, one hears the 'Gospel of the grace of God' as preached/taught by the Apostle Paul, and then, one must CHOOSE (Free-will choice) to accept or reject the Gospel. Once one has chosen to place one's faith in Christ and His death and resurrection, they are sealed and baptized into the 'Body of Christ,' by the Holy Spirit. They are then considered a 'Child of God,' forgiven of all their sins: Past, present, and future, and will inherit eternal life.
It is indeed a sad thing when someone uses their religion to interpret the Bible. This is exactly what Catholics do and is why they don't understand the Gospel and justification by faith apart from the works of the law.
The Holy Spirit is the interpreter of the scriptures. No Holy Spirit, no understanding of God's spiritual book.
It is the Holy Spirit that draws all men to the Gospel. One of the GREAT lies is, that certain members of the human race are CHOSEN ( predestined) to be saved and the rest are damned for eternity. 1 Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
Right on.
Not ONLY the Catholics, but the Calvinists (Reformed) folks, as well.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
And where did that faith come from? Why did Abram leave Ur to begin with? What persuaded him that God could - and would - perform what He promised him? Two people hear the same message, one believes and the other doesn't. Is it because of a deficiency of faculty in one over the other? A deficiency of reasoning, of understanding? Logic says that everyone should believe based on the same evidence (or at least the same quantity). But if the ability to believe is a faculty that is based on the answers to certain questions, then why would Jesus say this :
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
John 20:29
If I told you someone had been raised from the dead and you believed it sight unseen, your belief would not have anything to do with the reasoning or logic of the situation - it would be based on the faith you have been given.
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Romans 12:3
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:8
If faith is required and it is up to you to have it, then it can't be the gift of God (in the free and unfettered sense) but is a contingent gift. In terms of reasoning and faith, if faith comes as a result of argument and someone can reason you into the kingdom, then they can reason you out of it. The parable of the seed and the sower says seed is scattered on ground that already is in a certain condition - not that the ground gets that way after the seed is sown. The upshot is not "If I have faith, I will believe" (as is argued) but rather "If I have faith I will apprehend that which God provides". The fact that (I believe) faith is something we are given doesn't predispose one to fatalism - but rather gives one the capacity and ability to hear the word. Not abilities to decide if the word delivered is true.
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
John 8:47
The precondition here is not the giving of the words of God - it is the innate ability (or inability) to hear them.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
That's not believing (or not believing) that is standing in judgment of it. Those that so do are being set up to either make the "right" choice or the "wrong" choice. They are being told they need to make the right choice. That's not what the command to believe is all about. It is a total identification with Christ. And no one can do that until presented with Christ. But it isn't a decision in the sense of freely choosing to accept or reject Christ. The will is bound to serve something - and John quotes Jesus as saying that a man hears because of something :
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
John 8:47
And if faith comes by hearing - and hearing the Word of God - then it must be that the abiding Word is the prerequisite :
And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
John 5:38
So there must be something in the man before there is ever a chance of hearing - and it's not analytical ability.
Jesus used a parable of the seed and the sower. In it, the seed went into a certain type of ground and that determines whether the word is received or not. Otherwise belief becomes a choice that may be influenced by something as trivial as transient hunger pains. And one who decides to make a free choice to accept the Gospel can later on make a free choice to reject it (and then later again accept it and then later again reject it and then...). The idea that one simply needs to make a choice sometime (and then they are grabbed, sealed and set forever) makes evangelism more like a car sales pitch than interest in one's soul.
Well, we'll just have to 'Agree to disagree' okay? I've debated Calvinists (Reformed folks) over the years on TOL and we NEVER came to a 'meeting of the minds.' Believe me, you're not going to convince me nor am I going to convince you. Not gonna happen.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
I'm fine with that. Good exercise, though!
glorydaz
Well-known member
Perhaps if we were all puppets and always reacted the same way. :think:
Why did Cain kill Abel, but Abel sought to please God?
Our "ability" to believe has nothing to do with it, since we are all creations with the same internal knowledge of God imbued in us....thus we are without excuse.
We were created with that innate ability to hear...we were created with it in us. Which is why man is without excuse.
Romans 1:19-20 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Salvation is the gift of God.... in Eph. 2:8
The measure of faith is talking about the gifts of the Spirit that come to each member of the body after we believe, and are baptised by the Spirit into the body of Christ. At which time the fruit of the Spirit is manifest in us.
Romans 12:6
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
I will add....This is a really long post, and there is stuff in there I should answer, but it's too long. I may come back if you respond to what I have already given.
Calvinism is a terrible religion, it tries to make God into something that he is not. We who are Christians are right in opposing it. Not only is it anti-Gospel, it is also anti-Christ and anti-God. Those that have been indoctrinated into that horrible religion are without Christ and are without hope.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Perhaps if we were all puppets and always reacted the same way. :think:Okay, but again - what is being judged in a man when he or she rejects Christ? Unbelief, yes, but from misapprehension? Not enough detail (for the individual to decide properly)? Or in recognition of the OP, is it just judgment of people who offended God by not accepting His offered gift?
Please note - none of what I am saying above is rhetorical. I am simply trying to show that framing salvation as it has been framed (just a free gift...just say yes...and that's it) misses the fact that the gospel is the power of God (unto salvation). The way that power is maintained and used says a lot about the God who does so - and about those who are the objects of this power. When one believes upon Christ, they are not just admitting an historical fact or casting a vote - they are being translated from one kingdom to another. They are being moved - wholesale - from darkness to light. From death to life. The whole matter of authority had become new for them. And it doesn't end there. It extends into the heights and depths of the unseen realms of eternity. The very thing in man that (supposedly) makes a decision for Christ can't even do that until it has been changed. No matter how we react, we are all (until we come to Him) under our own authority, seeking our own will, doing our own thing. Thus, we are all at enmity with God. It's a simple fact that can't be grasped until one is "awakened" to what and who he truly is. The gift of eternal life - of life in Christ - is simply not even conceived of as necessary or (in some cases) something to be considered. It is nothing to the sinner and there is nothing in the sinner that makes him truly come to Christ. Not knowledge, not reason, not upbringing. Some things may make it more likely for someone to consider eternal matters - but no man can come to Christ (nor will) unless the Father draws him. He establishes the circumstances of our birth and the arc of our life. And that foreordains many things about the way we see the world and the way we respond to the circumstances of our lives. These circumstances come upon us beyond our control and the whole world is unfolding well beyond our ability to control or foresee its impact on us. So are we to say that a man who is born one way that may predispose him to bitterness and another born in different circumstances that predisposes him to seek out spiritual answers are to be judged on different bases in light of the cross? I can't see that. What I see is that there is this thing that is at the core of every human that is born into this existence. And no matter their conditions, circumstances, natural capabilities etc..., this heart is capable of being understood as being the same for all men who do not know God :
Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.
John 2:23-25
These were men who believed in his name after seeing miracles. But Jesus knew better than to join Himself to them. He knew their hearts. And His evangelism was hardly typical. When the multitudes wanted to follow Him, He essentially drove them away by saying things they had no chance of understanding (John 6). He didn't say they had a choice to follow Him (or not). He didn't say that they had to eat His flesh and drink His blood to gain eternal life. When dealing with what is in man, only God can properly see and address the heart. And until He does, no one is going to truly believe on Christ. So it is the work of God to bring salvation and the crux of the matter is the very heart of man (which man himself doesn't understand - Jeremiah 17:9). That is the only place the distinction can be made and since man himself doesn't understand his own deceit and wickedness, it is short-sighted (at best) to simply offer salvation as a free gift you merely have to open your hand and accept. It is a gift, but it was (and is) very costly. It entails a whole new identity and the putting away of things that the heart will not let go of (unless it is changed). It cuts against yourself in every way conceivable and will require everything of you. No individual will naturally do that. No individual is capable of that. So unless the light truly dawns and a man realizes who and what he is before God, no presentation of the gospel - however powerful and convincing - will result in true conversion. And that's where I see the real importance of this issue. It is a matter of the heart. A matter of what truly is. And it's simple - in natural man, that heart cannot and will not believe because it has no ability to do so nor any inclination in that direction. It is strictly impossible. Jesus even admitted as much - but said that with God all things are possible. And what did He say was the work of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. John 6:29
In other words - unless God brings light, life and faith into the heart, it is in its natural condemned state. No emotional pleas, no reasoning, no nothing is going to change it but a Sovereign act of God. And if God waits for that heart to decide it wants and/or needs Him (without doing anything Himself about it), He will be waiting forever. That's fine for Him, but we don't have quite that long. So the idea that God is a gentleman and will wait until He is invited to do something just doesn't line up with scripture as far as I can tell. The whole story of Israel flies in the face of that.
For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Ezekiel 36:24-28
And He isn't doing this because Israel asked Him to :
Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
Ezekiel 36:22-23
Israel's hatred of their own sin only comes after God does these things :
Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord God, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
Ezekiel 36:31-32
Salvation isn't entirely about just getting the world saved. It's about God completing a work we haven't come close to conceiving of.
Abel had faith.
Okay....but what about Christ's death and resurrection makes it possible to believe it simply because some stranger tells you it happened? Does our natural understanding of God tell us this is true?
I would disagree with the word "ability" there. We have the capacity, but it doesn't necessarily translate (in all cases) to ability. A crippled man has the legs to walk but he is not able to do so. The legs give him the capacity but he has no corresponding ability. Likewise, the Pharisees had ears but they could not hear Christ's word (because they didn't have the Word of God dwelling in them - a prerequisite to hearing, apparently).
As I read that, the "eternal power and Godhead" are what is patently obvious to anyone who hasn't suppressed the truth God has given every man. But nothing seems (as I read it, anyway) to indicate that this extends to the cross. Granted, we in the Western world have no such excuse with bibles being as plentiful as they are. Having said that, Jesus spoke truth in parables so that many would NOT understand (though they heard).
If it is merely speaking of the salvation as the gift - then it is a contingent gift. Contingent upon someone having faith. And if that faith is NOT from God, then there is that whereof someone may boast (I had faith and you didn't).
THE FREE OFFER
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:37
But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
John 5:34
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Matthew 11:28
THE CALL TO SEEK HIM
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Hebrews 11:6
WHAT MUST COME BEFORE SOMEONE WILL SEEK HIM
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44
And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
I receive not honour from men.
But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
John 5:38-42
So to seek Christ, you must have faith. But you also must be drawn. But before you will hear, you must believe. But if faith COMES by hearing, how to untangle that? The Word of God must be foundational - and hearing comes BY that, so it is of God to cause you to hear and believe (by His Word). The very reason the Pharisees didn't believe - they couldn't hear because they did not have His Word (which they couldn't have had if they didn't hear in the first place...)
Why does that need to be different faith from that which was necessary to believe on Christ in the first place?
I will add....This is a really long post, and there is stuff in there I should answer, but it's too long. I may come back if you respond to what I have already given.
It seems I may have gotten a little long-winded in my response. Too much to say...
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Let me add that I argue for faith as a gift of God as a theological reality but see this as being viewed from God's perspective rather than ours. In other words, we have nothing that we didn't receive (I Cor 4:7) but there still remains a reckoning as to what we have done with what we have been given. And while it may not look to us like we have been given faith, the reality is (as far as I can see) that we won't even approach God unless He is working. So as a creature, I don't use the definition of faith as an excuse to say I don't do all I know to do. After all, my very next breath comes from Him but I'm not necessarily consciously recognizing that - faith may be no different. I may not recognize it as coming from God, but when you consider that something that is essential for approaching God may find its source in something other than God, you have to wonder how to know if it is sufficient?
glorydaz
Well-known member
I think Paul makes it clear that God did not create us ignorant of His being. We go through life seeking to know Him...except we keep getting distracted by the things of this world But God is long-suffering, and He allows us to go through all the dead ends in this life until He sees we are at our point of greatest need (whether we realize it or not). I know exactly when it was in my own life, and I was "ripe unto the harvest", as I like to call it. It happened through a scripture quoted wrongly by some JW's (John 1:1) and a big nudge from the Spirit. I have no doubt about it. I was then led to an old lady (through a simple ad posted on the wall of our general store asking help getting snow off their roof), and it was there that she preached the basic Gospel, and I believed.
I see it as the picture in the Sistine Chapel. God is reaching down and man is reaching up at that perfect moment in time. There are those who turn away from the light when it draws near, because they love the darkness more than the light. But, God will give everyone the opportunity to turn to Him in faith.
Spoiler
Oh dear. I feel horribly inadequate to respond to this post. There is so much there, and so much I would like to respond to. If you don't mind, I'd like to come back and take this a piece at a time. As you say, there is so much there.
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