Sad News: Calvinist Ministers Can't Preach the Gospel that Christ Preached

[Nang]

In the gospel that Christ preached, He asked people to repent. Mark 1:14, 15.

But Calvinist ministers can't see the need of asking people to repent:

1. What's the use of asking the elect to repent when they believe the elect are sure to repent since they are not able to NOT repent?

2. What's the use of asking the non-elect to repent when they believe the non-elect are doomed anyway and hence can't and won't repent?

God does not "ask" persons to repent; He commands all men to repent.

But none are willing or able to obey that command, because they are dead in sin.

By God's grace alone, they must first be resurrected to new spiritual life (John 3:1-8) and then granted the capacity to believe and repent.

Regeneration precedes faith and obedience.

 

[Samie]

If you use the illustration that I used of my kid taking the garbage out as an example; I KNOW that my kid WILL definitely take the garbage out at some point. This is because I have authority as his father and I know him well enough to know if he will do it willingly or unwillingly ( usually the case). But just because I know he WILL take the garbage out, doesn't mean that he HAS ALREADY taken it out. Until it is actually picked up and removed from the house, it has NOT been taken out.

Agree.

Because he is not prone to take the garbage out on his own,and will rebel, he needs me to COMMAND him to do so.

Disagree. You are deviating from Calvinism's concept of Irresistible grace where Calvinism's elect cannot NOT repent otherwise they perish and Calvinism teaches Calvinism's elect can NEVER lose their salvation.

In your illustration, your kid "WILL definitely take the garbage out at some point" because he is NOT able to NOT take the garbage out, whether you command him or not.

 

[Samie]

God does not "ask" persons to repent; He commands all men to repent.

But none are willing or able to obey that command, because they are dead in sin.

By God's grace alone, they must first be resurrected to new spiritual life (John 3:1-8) and then granted the capacity to believe and repent.

Regeneration precedes faith and obedience.

Your sequence of events: dead first then made alive

Scriptures order of events: alive first then died and then made alive

KJV Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

KJV Galatians 2:19-20 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[fishrovmen]

In your illustration, your kid "WILL definitely take the garbage out at some point" because he is NOT able to NOT take the garbage out, whether you command him or not.

I disagree. I will let you come to my house and wait for years amidst mounds of rotting garbage for my kid to take the garbage out of his own accord without being commanded to. Then you will see that ONLY when YOUR will overcomes HIS will, will the garbage be taken out. My kid's will to put up with the smell of garbage supersedes his will to take the garbage out.
His will needs to be made willing to do otherwise, whether by realizing the consequences that are not worth bearing, or by his coming to understand the benefits of removing the garbage.
So, in short, he WILL at some time take that garbage out, either by command when he is unwilling, or by a willingness of his own.
See Nang's response in post #62

See Nang's reply in post #62

 

[Samie]

I disagree. I will let you come to my house and wait for years amidst mounds of rotting garbage for my kid to take the garbage out of his own accord without being commanded to. Then you will see that ONLY when YOUR will overcomes HIS will, will the garbage be taken out. My kid's will to put up with the smell of garbage supersedes his will to take the garbage out.
His will needs to be made willing to do otherwise, whether by realizing the consequences that are not worth bearing, or by his coming to understand the benefits of removing the garbage.
So, in short, he WILL at some time take that garbage out, either by command when he is unwilling, or by a willingness of his own. . . .

There is no UNWILLINGNESS on the part of the elect in Calvinism, my brother. Here's the "I" of TULIP:

Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God.

Your brand of Calvinism is foreign to John Calvin. But I'd say it's a slight change for the better.

Why not consider my position that people are not born in sin but born in Christ all because God implemented the plan of salvation He devised before the beginning of time, (2 Tim 1:8-10; Eph 1:3-5) by saving Adam through Christ (Acts 4:12) that same day he fell into sin and reinstated him to his pre-fall spiritual status, an act that cost the Father His only begotten Son - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8)? With Adam in Christ, ALL his descendants are born in Christ!

That gracious saving act of God was manifested / revealed in the life, death, resurrection and heavenly ministry of our Lord. Born in Christ, people have His power to repent. This is why in the gospel that He preached, Christ called people to repent, having been empowered to. The same call God made in the OT (Ezek 18:30); the same call to repent He now commands every man everywhere to do (Acts 17:30).

Repentance is a change of mind for that which is good. Instead of doing evil, do good. IOW, overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21). Overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life and will be seated with Christ in His throne even as He also overcame and sat down with the Father in His throne (Rev 3:5, 21). All not blotted out will be allowed entry into the heavenly portals (Rev 21:27); all blotted out will have their portion in the lake of fire (Rev 20:15). Also see Rom 2:5-11.

Any objection? Just post them. I'll try my best to address each of them when I come back from an appointment. And of course, THROUGH Scriptures.

 

[fishrovmen]

There is no UNWILLINGNESS on the part of the elect in Calvinism, my brother. Here's the "I" of TULIP:Your brand of Calvinism is foreign to John Calvin. But I'd say it's a slight change for the better.

Why not consider my position that people are not born in sin but born in Christ all because God implemented the plan of salvation He devised before the beginning of time, (2 Tim 1:8-10; Eph 1:3-5) by saving Adam through Christ (Acts 4:12) that same day he fell into sin and reinstated him to his pre-fall spiritual status, an act that cost the Father His only begotten Son - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8)? With Adam in Christ, ALL his descendants are born in Christ!

That gracious saving act of God was manifested / revealed in the life, death, resurrection and heavenly ministry of our Lord. Born in Christ, people have His power to repent. This is why in the gospel that He preached, Christ called people to repent, having been empowered to. The same call God made in the OT (Ezek 18:30); the same call to repent He now commands every man everywhere to do (Acts 17:30).

Repentance is a change of mind for that which is good. Instead of doing evil, do good. IOW, overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21). Overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life and will be seated with Christ in His throne even as He also overcame and sat down with the Father in His throne (Rev 3:5, 21). All not blotted out will be allowed entry into the heavenly portals (Rev 21:27); all blotted out will have their portion in the lake of fire (Rev 20:15). Also see Rom 2:5-11.

Any objection? Just post them. I'll try my best to address of each of them when I come back from an appointment. And of course, THROUGH Scriptures.

First of all, I've never read what Calvin wrote so I can't defend "Calvinism"; but I never heard of anyone teach that just because someone will repent at some point, means that they have already repented.
As far as I understand election, I agree that the elect need to be enabled to be willing to repent just as Nang wrote. Until they are enabled to do so by God's grace, not apart from it, they remain children of wrath and disobedience.

 

[fishrovmen]

duplicate

 

[Nang]

As far as I understand election, I agree that the elect need to be enabled to be willing to repent just as Nang wrote. Until they are enabled to do so by God's grace, not apart from it, they remain children of wrath and disobedience.

Exactly . . .

Totally depraved sinners, held in spiritual bondage to sin, death, and the devil, due to the original sin of Adam, prove unable and unwilling to repent.

So the capacity to repent must be granted by the grace of God.

God grants repentance to whom He wills: II Timothy 2:25; Acts 3:26, 5:31, 11:18

SO THAT THEY MAY KNOW THE TRUTH.

Amen

 

[Samie]

Exactly . . .

Totally depraved sinners, held in spiritual bondage to sin, death, and the devil, due to the original sin of Adam, prove unable and unwilling to repent.

I noticed you just ignored the Scriptures that show people are NOT born dead in sin as I posted here.

So the capacity to repent must be granted by the grace of God.

Correct. And those He granted the capacity to repent, He NOW COMMANDS to repent:

NKJ Acts 17:30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent

All granted the capacity to repent, all are commanded to repent. Fair and square.

God grants repentance to whom He wills: II Timothy 2:25; Acts 3:26, 5:31, 11:18

SO THAT THEY MAY KNOW THE TRUTH.

Amen

True indeed. And how many does God want to know the truth?

1 Timothy 2:3-4 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God wants all to know the truth, hence he grants repentance to all so that all may know the truth. But whether people will abide by the truth after knowing it is another story.

Again, Scriptures do not agree with your contention that NOT all have been given the capacity to repent.

 

[Crucible]

The apparent peeling away of God's sovereignty for the sake of one's will and ability is a biblical grade of 'foolish'.

Pinning 'foreknowledge' against 'predestination' is making a false dichotomy. It's nothing more than a grand intellectual sin of anti-Calvinists, having no sound reason, to further confound those as foolish as themselves.

Calvinism has always stood infallible to contrary beliefs, from succeeding the Reformation to it's solidarity in contrast to modern heresy.

 

[Samie]

The apparent peeling away of God's sovereignty for the sake of one's will and ability is a biblical grade of 'foolish'.

Pinning 'foreknowledge' against 'predestination' is making a false dichotomy. It's nothing more than a grand intellectual sin of anti-Calvinists, having no sound reason, to further confound those as foolish as themselves.

Calvinism has always stood infallible to contrary beliefs, from succeeding the Reformation to it's solidarity in contrast to modern heresy.

If I only call foolish the objections to my position instead of showing those objections as devoid of truth as it is in Scriptures, then I simply expose myself as not only foolish but also stupid.

I think it is in this forum where Calvinism's belief that people are born dead in sin is first challenged as being not biblical.

Calvinism teaches: man is born dead in sin then made alive

from Scriptures: KJV Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Galatians 2:19-20 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The sequential order from scriptures is: alive first, died, then made alive. But Calvinism changed it to: born dead in sin then made alive.

For Crucible, the above reasoning is foolish. Why? Only Crucible knows.

 

[Crucible]

I think it is in this forum where Calvinism's belief that people are born dead in sin is first challenged as being not biblical.

Calvinism teaches: man is born dead in sin then made alive

You all are the one's who add 'born' to this matter- born a sinner, born dead in sin- it is never stated in Scripture, people just add that presupposition.
In order to be a sinner, one must first sin. 'Total depravity' occurs from the first sin- the Reformists even defended infant baptism in response to the heresy, upholding a notion that children are worthy of ordinance into the Body from birth.

So don't sit there and try to act like Calvinism has anything to do with you all's heresies, because it doesn't. The Reformed tradition is solid, historical Christianity, not the crooked house of cards yall have built.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

If I only call foolish the objections to my position instead of showing those objections as devoid of truth as it is in Scriptures, then I simply expose myself as not only foolish but also stupid.

I think it is in this forum where Calvinism's belief that people are born dead in sin is first challenged as being not biblical.

Calvinism teaches: man is born dead in sin then made alive

from Scriptures: KJV Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Galatians 2:19-20 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The sequential order from scriptures is: alive first, died, then made alive. But Calvinism changed it to: born dead in sin then made alive.

For Crucible, the above reasoning is foolish. Why? Only Crucible knows.

Crucible has been brainwashed by a Cult called Calvinism. It is one of Satan's counterfeits.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Calvinism preaches that God chose who He would save (The Elect) before the foundation of the world. Furthermore, He chose who would suffer eternal damnation. Calvinists are so invested with their "Cult" that they earnestly believe no one outside their "belief system" can possibly understand their teachings.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

They believe humanity is totally depraved and incapable of choosing to do any good.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

They also believe that one must first, be regenerated then, receive saving faith. The old "Cart before the Horse" tactic. The Grace Gospel received by Paul from the "Ascended Lord Jesus Christ" does not teach these false doctrines. God's Grace is offered to everyone through the drawing of the Holy Spirit to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ through the hearing of the Gospel.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

The Comforter (The Holy Spirit) was sent by Christ after He left this world to be with the Father. The Holy Spirit:

1) Draws us to Christ.
2) Seals and indwells the new believer.
3) Baptizes (not by water) the new believer into the Body of Christ.
4) Helps us to understand the Written Word of God. (The Bible.)
5) Helps to conform the believer into the Image of Christ.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

God the Father was working throughout the Old Testament. God the Son (Jesus Christ) came to earth as a sacrifice for the sins of all humanity. Now, God the Holy Spirit is working in the world. All three (Yet, they are one) Have played a part before and during the existence of the world.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

It's crucial that every believer read/study the ENTIRE Bible. (Old and New Testament) That way, we get to see the Character and intent of the Trinity that makes up the Godhead.