That's where UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION - the U in the TULIP - points people to.
Sad News: Calvinist Ministers Can't Preach the Gospel that Christ Preached
- Thread starter Samie
- Start date
You may visit this page: http://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm
fishrovmen
Active member
You might have a fraction of understanding of election. But when you take it to the extreme and say that repentance is completed without the subject having never repented, that is not something I have ever heard taught. So where is the supporting evidence?
Oh you lost me. Did I ever say "repentance is completed without the subject having never repented"? But Calvinism teaches unconditional election where the elect cannot be NOT saved.
It's Calvinism's doctrine I was questioning, since God commands every man everywhere to repent, and because Calvinism teaches the elect cannot perish then Calvinist ministers believe the elect are not able to NOT repent because Jesus said repent or perish.
That's precisely why I asked question #1 in the OP.
fishrovmen
Active member
Yes. Your question in posts #9,15,19,22,25 was based on your assumption that a Calvinist minister believes that an elect is "already repenting".
That's what they believe, yes. That's why I ask how they can ask the elect to repent.
What's your problem with that?
I think you are saying Calvinist ministers don't believe the elect are already repenting and they must ask them to repent.
If so, then, back to question #1 in the OP.
Why bother asking the elect to repent when they are sure they will repent since the elect cannot perish, and Jesus said repent or perish?
If so, then, back to question #1 in the OP.
Why bother asking the elect to repent when they are sure they will repent since the elect cannot perish, and Jesus said repent or perish?
fishrovmen
Active member
If you use the illustration that I used of my kid taking the garbage out as an example; I KNOW that my kid WILL definitely take the garbage out at some point. This is because I have authority as his father and I know him well enough to know if he will do it willingly or unwillingly ( usually the case). But just because I know he WILL take the garbage out, doesn't mean that he HAS ALREADY taken it out. Until it is actually picked up and removed from the house, it has NOT been taken out.
Because he is not prone to take the garbage out on his own,and will rebel, he needs me to COMMAND him to do so.
When you read of the heart of the natural man found in the biblical record from Genesis to Revelation, you will clearly see that man loves the darkness and worship of idols.
In Romans 1, we see that mankind has put God to the test and found Him to be unapproved; so mankind will not readily and willingly turn to God on their own while they have invented a god to their own liking.
God has given the Gospel as the means to call sinners to repentance; to turn from the love of immorality and idols, to serve and worship Him.
If I were a minister, I would rejoice in the fact that God is gathering a people for Himself, through the Gospel, and I would be ever so thankful that I know that the power is not in my persuasive words,but in His power to draw them.
Your ignorance continues to expose itself to the light of day.
I think what Samie is asking is whether GOD just knew it would most likely happen, or if GOD predetermined it to happen.
You can't predetermine something that you already know is fact.
That would not be PREdetermining anything.
And when you get into the whole "GOD is outside of time" thing, then you have everything happening at once and nothing was PRE.
flintstoned
New member
If you are without belief, do you think you can truly believe in something solely based on someone commanding you to?
flintstoned
New member
God KNOWS what will happen (what is fact) BECAUSE he has predetermined for it to happen.
He can't PREdetermine anything if everything happens at the same time.
flintstoned
New member
What do you mean? What happens at the same time? God elected a people for himself BEFORE the foundation of the world. BEFORE they were born or had done anything good or bad. He predestined that they would eventually be brought to salvation and he specified the means by which it would happen. God knew that they would believe and be saved because He was the one who called them, convicted them, gave them the gift of faith and the Holy Spirit, etc.
And I am saying that if GOD lives outside of time, then nothing happens BEFORE or AFTER anything else. It all happens instantaneously when there is no time to separate BEFORE and AFTER.
So if GOD predestined anything, He had to do that within time (otherwise there is no pre, before, or an after).
Yeah, I am ignorant of your stupidity until you exposed it by reading letters not for you.
:baby:
Nang
TOL Subscriber
IMO, your argument only succeeds in denying the eternal purposes and intents of God Almighty. It fails to define predestination as being only a spontaneous act within a temporal time frame.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Your argument confuses what God has done, with what God is.