ECT Regeneration before repentance?

[jobeth]

So what you are really questioning, is why did manifest Jesus Christ? Why did God find it necessary to send His Son into this world?

Are you sure you want to question God about the wonders of the Incarnation?

Here is why I think God sent His son into the world.
If God controls all things, then He should be the One to pay the penalty of death for all the sin and evil in the world, not us.

And according to the gospel, He did.

1 John 2:2 (KJV)
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Well, that is what this thread is all about. I simply disagree and say that no dead sinner has the capacity to hear or believe the gospel unless the Holy Spirit first regenerates them to new spiritual life.

I agree that God must do something in order that we may believe. I just disagree that something is called regeneration. Rather I think that something that God did for us is to give us the Gift of Faith, so that when we hear the gospel we will believe it and be saved.

The fact that many do not hear or believe the gospel is because many are not born again by the Spirit of Christ. They remain in their depravity and sins and are not given "ears to hear."

I agree that not all are "given" ears to hear. I believe some were denied that "spark" from birth and some were given that "spark" from birth. So that when the "call" goes out to all the world, (Matt 22:14) only those who have previously received the gift of Faith (Eph 2:8) will hear and believe the gospel.

This is why I say that it is the Gospel of Christ itself that is the catalyst. Our faith is merely the reactant. But not all have the gift of faith ((2 Thess 3:2). Which means that for those who have no faith, the gospel is a savor of death unto death, but to those who have the gift of Faith it is the sweet savor of Christ (2 Cor 2:15) who thereafter believe on Him unto eternal life. (1 Tim 1:16 ASV)

God does not reprobate men "after they hear the gospel."

I am happy to hear you do not espouse that nonsense as some others have done.

Adam was the cause of all persons being born with a depraved and sinful nature. God could have let the entire human race perish in such a condition.

However, God chose to extend grace to some, predestinating them to everlasting life in and through faith in His Son, Jesus Christ. The rest of humanity will manifest God's holy justice and suffer righteous judgment for their sins.

So this means God is in sovereign control of who will believe the gospel and who will not. (Isaiah 6:9-10) Election to honor or dishonor was established by eternal decree before the foundation of the world.
(Ephesians 1:3-14)

I totally agree. The only disagreement between us is that I believe God granted Faith to those He elected prior to their being sent into the world, not after. So that they only await the call of the gospel in order to believe and be saved.

It is not scriptural to say a person is born again (regenerated) before he believes rather than after he believes. Eph 1:13; Jn 1:12;

God knew us before the foundation of the world. What does it mean to be Known of God? In the same way that Adam knew Eve and she conceived and bore a son, God "knew" us prior to our being born. Adam implanted his seed first and then after a time (pregnancy and birthpangs) a son was born. In the same way God implanted his seed (1 John 3:9) in His Elect (sons of God) so that after a time (the tutelage of the Law and the Call of the Gospel) we would be born again.

It is because not everyone has that "seed" that not everyone has the ability to believe the Gospel.

The actions of men do not determine their fate. If that were true, all men would end up in hell, for "there is none righteous, no not one." It is solely the grace and goodness of God that saves some sinners from what they rightly deserve.

May God receive all the glory for providing His Son to this sorry world!

Nang

Amen.

 

[Nang]

Here is why I think God sent His son into the world.
If God controls all things, then He should be the One to pay the penalty of death for all the sin and evil in the world, not us.

Then you are of the opinion that God is the author of sin? He is to blame for Adam's fall, and so God is obligated to make up for that mistake? (That is a Theosophical belief, I hate to tell you!)

I agree that not all are "given" ears to hear. I believe some were denied that "spark" from birth and some were given that "spark" from birth. So that when the "call" goes out to all the world, (Matt 22:14) only those who have previously received the gift of Faith (Eph 2:8) will hear and believe the gospel.

What you are doing is redefining "faith" to be a "spark" of human virtue and capacity, rather than attributing the ability to be faithful to Jesus Christ and His Holy Spirit, alone.

This is why I say that it is the Gospel of Christ itself that is the catalyst. Our faith is merely the reactant.

So you are saying the efficacy of the Gospel is dependant upon a human reaction or response? You are bringing an Arminian message, you know!

It is not scriptural to say a person is born again (regenerated) before he believes rather than after he believes. Eph 1:13; Jn 1:12;

I disagree. Jesus Christ Himself taught that unless one is born from above, he can not comprehend ("see") the kingdom of God. John 3:3

Regeneration accomplished by the power of the Holy Spirit is necessary for God's gift of faith to function. You cannot separate the capacity to believe in God and to repent from sins from the Person of Christ. One MUST be raised from death to life and brought into union with Him through the indwelling of His Holy Spirit before one can understand and implement spiritual truths.

God knew us before the foundation of the world. What does it mean to be Known of God? In the same way that Adam knew Eve and she conceived and bore a son, God "knew" us prior to our being born. Adam implanted his seed first and then after a time (pregnancy and birthpangs) a son was born. In the same way God implanted his seed (1 John 3:9) in His Elect (sons of God) so that after a time (the tutelage of the Law and the Call of the Gospel) we would be born again.

This talk of implanting the "seed of Christ" is another description of regeneration and obtaining union with Christ. One MUST have the seed of Christ abiding within in order to believe and repent.

It is because not everyone has that "seed" that not everyone has the ability to believe the Gospel.


Amen.

Exactly.

I believe what is described as a "seed," is the very "Seed" (Messiah) promised to all the O.T. saints, and particularly to Abraham. For all who exhibit faith in Jesus Christ are called the sons of Abraham.

You are limiting this fulfillment of covenant promises to describe only a latent capacity of some sort. Leaving union with God out of the picture all together, until a human decision is made to activate faith.

That is simply another version of synergism and another twist on the works-righteousness gospel preached by Arminians, Open Theists, and Dispensationalists of all stripes.

Being a staunch Calvinist, I reject this theory.

For I believe in justification by faith alone, due to the workings of the grace of God alone, through union with Christ alone, by hearing and believing the Scriptures alone, to the glory of God alone.

Sola Fide
Sola Gratia
Solus Christus
Sola Scriptura
Soli Deo Gloria

Nang

 

[john w]

Indeed.

Sinners must be ~resurrected~ (regenerated) to new spiritual life, before they will ever repent or exhibit any faith in God.

Nang

_
If they already are "regenerated to new spiritual life," why would they need to "repent," or exhibit any faith? Or, to put it another way, if they are already regenerated, to "be able to believe," why? "Ability to believe" is for what purpose, since they are already "regenerated?"

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

_
If they already are "regenerated to new spiritual life," why would they need to "repent," or exhibit any faith? Or, to put it another way, if they are already regenerated, to "be able to believe," why? "Ability to believe" is for what purpose, since they are already :regenerated?"

Yes, it would seem to be a moot point whether they believe or not, if they are already "regenerated".

 

[Nang]

_
If they already are "regenerated to new spiritual life," why would they need to "repent," or exhibit any faith? Or, to put it another way, if they are already regenerated, to "be able to believe," why? "Ability to believe" is for what purpose, since they are already "regenerated?"

This question reveals you do not understand salvation according to grace. You apparently think one must believe and repent to get saved, but the grace of God saves, and belief and repentance is the evidence.

IOW's, a sinner does not believe and repent to get saved; a sinner believes and repents because he has been saved.

The former view is salvation according to law. The latter view is evidence of salvation according to grace.

The regenerated Christian places his faith in the righteousness of Jesus Christ, not his own. A regenerated Christian repents of sinfulness out of love and gratitude for the saving grace of God. . .

No longer is the Christian obligated to believe and repent according to the Law, for Jesus Christ has fulfilled all the Law on their behalf.

Does this mean then, that once one is born again by the power of the Holy Spirit, and brought from death to life in union with Christ, that he is free to sin? God forbid! (Romans 6:1-2)

The regenerated sinner is raised to new spiritual life, just as "Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." Romans 6:4

Nang

 

[john w]

This question reveals you do not understand salvation according to grace. You apparently think one must believe and repent to get saved, but the grace of God saves, and belief and repentance is the evidence.

IOW's, a sinner does not believe and repent to get saved; a sinner believes and repents because he has been saved.

The former view is salvation according to law. The latter view is evidence of salvation according to grace.

The regenerated Christian places his faith in the righteousness of Jesus Christ, not his own. A regenerated Christian repents of sinfulness out of love and gratitude for the saving grace of God. . .

No longer is the Christian obligated to believe and repent according to the Law, for Jesus Christ has fulfilled all the Law on their behalf.

Does this mean then, that once one is born again by the power of the Holy Spirit, and brought from death to life in union with Christ, that he is free to sin? God forbid! (Romans 6:1-2)

The regenerated sinner is raised to new spiritual life, just as "Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." Romans 6:4

Nang

_
1.Nope, according to Nangism, the regenerated sinner need not repent, or believe-he/she is already regenerated.. Ability to believe? For what purpose, and what? To believe the gospel? He/she is already regenerated w/o believing anything, the "argument" being that a depraved, no good sinner needs to be regenerated first, to be able to "believe the gospel,"i.e., he cannot believe until regenerated/given the ability to believe. Again, why? He/she is already regenerated.

2. I must be correct. Nang disagrees.

 

[Nang]

_
1.Nope, according to Nangism, the regenerated sinner need not repent, or believe-he/she is already regenerated..

You are the one concluding the sinner need not repent. Not me. In fact, if a sinner claims to believe in Jesus Christ but does not repent, then their faith is dead, and they make themselves to be liars.

Ability to believe? For what purpose, and what? To believe the gospel? He/she is already regenerated w/o believing anything, the "argument" being that a depraved, no good sinner needs to be regenerated first, to be able to "believe the gospel,"i.e., he cannot believe until regenerated/given the ability to believe. Again, why? He/she is already regenerated.

Your logic is convoluted because your faulty premise says that one must decide to have faith in Jesus Christ in order to be born again.

Jesus taught just the opposite. John 3:3

 

[jobeth]

Then you are of the opinion that God is the author of sin?

God is the author of everything. (Is 45:7; Lam 3:38; Am 3:6; Job 2:10 et al) Unless you know of some other Creator that I've never heard of?

He is to blame for Adam's fall, and so God is obligated to make up for that mistake? (That is a Theosophical belief, I hate to tell you!)

Name-calling? That's not an argument.

What you are doing is redefining "faith" to be a "spark" of human virtue and capacity, rather than attributing the ability to be faithful to Jesus Christ and His Holy Spirit, alone.

What do we have that is not a gift from God? Nothing, right?

So you are saying the efficacy of the Gospel is dependant upon a human reaction or response? You are bringing an Arminian message, you know!

Name calling again?

I disagree. Jesus Christ Himself taught that unless one is born from above, he can not comprehend ("see") the kingdom of God. John 3:3

Absolutely correct. Unless one is born from above (having God's seed in them, as Jewish Scholars like Nicodemus knew full well) one cannot see/perceive the Kingdom (operation) of God in ALL THINGS.

Regeneration accomplished by the power of the Holy Spirit is necessary for God's gift of faith to function. You cannot separate the capacity to believe in God and to repent from sins from the Person of Christ. One MUST be raised from death to life and brought into union with Him through the indwelling of His Holy Spirit before one can understand and implement spiritual truths.

But that is not what Eph 1:13 says is it?
Ephesians 1:13 (KJV)
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

According to Eph 1:13, we believe AFTER we hear the Gospel and we receive the Holy Spirit AFTER we believe, in contradiction to what you were taught (and are teaching).

This talk of implanting the "seed of Christ" is another description of regeneration and obtaining union with Christ. One MUST have the seed of Christ abiding within in order to believe and repent.

Yes. We agree that being a child of God is a pre-requisite to believing the Gospel and is a sovereign act of God independent of a person's willpower or agency. We agree except for the "timing" of the work of God in the life of His Elect, right?

I think it is more like a natural birth, where you have a conception, a pregnancy, labor pains, and then the actual birth.
The Calvinists portray the birthing process more like a Frankensteinian coming to Life with a instantaneous bolt of lightening or whatever.

Either way it is ALL OF GOD'S AGENCY and none of our own agency.

You are limiting this fulfillment of covenant promises to describe only a latent capacity of some sort. Leaving union with God out of the picture all together, until a human decision is made to activate faith.

No. How much more "union with God" is having been born with God's "seed" (that spark of conception)? We were/are His children even BEFORE we are revealed (born) as such to the world (or even to ourselves).

That is simply another version of synergism and another twist on the works-righteousness gospel preached by Arminians, Open Theists, and Dispensationalists of all stripes.

Bragging about having Faith is like bragging about being tall. We had nothing to do with it. It is all of God's agency and none is of our agency.

If a person has Seed-Faith (cf. Lydia from OP) she cannot fail to believe the Gospel when she (finally) hears it (correctly explained) and if a person has no Faith, she cannot believe the Gospel even if she wants to (2 Tim 3:7 cf John 10:26).

Placing the timing of the gift of Faith further back in the life of God's Elect does not diminish God's sovereignty, does it? God knows those who are His even before we come to a knowledge of the truth, because He is the One who implanted that seed-faith in us when He predestinated us.

I predestinate my bread to rise by adding leaven to the dough and because of my actions I foreknow that later on this batch will rise. In the same way, God predestinated us to believe the gospel by adding His seed-faith to us and because of His actions He Foreknows that later on we will believe when we hear the Gospel.

Can you at least concede my point that moving God's agency further back in the Life of His Elect does not diminish God's sovereignty?

 

[Nang]

God is the author of everything. (Is 45:7; Lam 3:38; Am 3:6; Job 2:10 et al) Unless you know of some other Creator that I've never heard of?

This is a horrible admission on your part. You blame God for sin!

God created Adam. Adam sinned. All blame is placed on the secondary agency of Adam for death entering this world. (Romans 5:12)

According to Eph 1:13, we believe AFTER we hear the Gospel and we receive the Holy Spirit AFTER we believe, in contradiction to what you were taught (and are teaching).

Faith comes by hearing the word of God. No argument. However, I contend that unless one is first regenerated, there is no way a dead sinner can "hear" or believe the gospel message.

And Ephesians 1:13 speaks of being "sealed" with the guarantee of the Holy Spirit after conversion, which means He is present already, to act as our Guarantor of our faith. IOW's, it is regeneration that initiates the indwelling of the Spirit in the souls of God's elect; anointing them with the power of the life of the Spirit of Christ; producing faith in the gospel heard; and sealing the believer with the guarantee of promise unto the point of glory.

I think it is more like a natural birth, where you have a conception, a pregnancy, labor pains, and then the actual birth.
The Calvinists portray the birthing process more like a Frankensteinian coming to Life with a instantaneous bolt of lightening or whatever.

I find your analogy insulting and demeaning and ignorant of the resurrection powers entailed in bringing dead sinners to new spiritual life through the event of regeneration.

How much more "union with God" is having been born with God's "seed" (that spark of conception)? We were/are His children even BEFORE we are revealed (born) as such to the world (or even to ourselves).

It is impossible to remain dead in trespasses and sins and be born by the power of the Holy Spirit at the same time.

How could there possibly be an actual union and holy sanctification existent within the sons of God, while they remained dead prior to making ". . us alive together with Christ . . .?" Romans 2:5

Placing the timing of the gift of Faith further back in the life of God's Elect does not diminish God's sovereignty, does it?

Separating the gift of faith from being brought into union with Jesus Christ through the regenerating powers of the Holy Spirit, diminishes the Scriptural revelations of God.

God knows those who are His even before we come to a knowledge of the truth, because He is the One who implanted that seed-faith in us when He predestinated us.

There is no Scripture that teaches this.

Predestination consists of eternal decree . . . not "seed planting."

God predestinated us to believe the gospel by adding His seed-faith to us and because of His actions He Foreknows that later on we will believe when we hear the Gospel.

You have advocated that "faith comes from hearing the word of God." How can you, or why do you, then persist in asserting that faith is planted in us before we are even born, or before we are exposed to the gospel?

You are pathetically inconsistent. . .

Can you at least concede my point that moving God's agency further back in the Life of His Elect does not diminish God's sovereignty?

I have no idea what you desire to prove. You are confusing God the Father's eternal predestination with God the Holy Spirit's regeneration in chronological time; thereby confounding the divine workings of the Persons of the Trinity.

Your question based solely upon speculation is theologically ignorant, unbiblical, and therefore irrelevant.

Nang

 

[jobeth]

This is a horrible admission on your part. You blame God for sin!

God created Adam. Adam sinned. All blame is placed on the secondary agency of Adam for death entering this world. (Romans 5:12)




Faith comes by hearing the word of God. No argument. However, I contend that unless one is first regenerated, there is no way a dead sinner can "hear" or believe the gospel message.

And Ephesians 1:13 speaks of being "sealed" with the guarantee of the Holy Spirit after conversion, which means He is present already, to act as our Guarantor of our faith. IOW's, it is regeneration that initiates the indwelling of the Spirit in the souls of God's elect; anointing them with the power of the life of the Spirit of Christ; producing faith in the gospel heard; and sealing the believer with the guarantee of promise unto the point of glory.




I find your analogy insulting and demeaning and ignorant of the resurrection powers entailed in bringing dead sinners to new spiritual life through the event of regeneration.




It is impossible to remain dead in trespasses and sins and be born by the power of the Holy Spirit at the same time.

How could there possibly be an actual union and holy sanctification existent within the sons of God, while they remained dead prior to making ". . us alive together with Christ . . .?" Romans 2:5




Separating the gift of faith from being brought into union with Jesus Christ through the regenerating powers of the Holy Spirit, diminishes the Scriptural revelations of God.





There is no Scripture that teaches this.

Predestination consists of eternal decree . . . not "seed planting."



You have advocated that "faith comes from hearing the word of God." How can you, or why do you, then persist in asserting that faith is planted in us before we are even born, or before we are exposed to the gospel?

You are pathetically inconsistent. . .



I have no idea what you desire to prove. You are confusing God the Father's eternal predestination with God the Holy Spirit's regeneration in chronological time; thereby confounding the divine workings of the Persons of the Trinity.

Your question based solely upon speculation is theologically ignorant, unbiblical, and therefore irrelevant.

Nang

Why are you angry?

 

[beloved57]

Nang:

God created Adam. Adam sinned.

God is still the First Cause, Adam's sin was part of His decree, and how He was to bring Glory to Himself through Jesus Christ.

 

[godrulz]

Nang:



God is still the First Cause, Adam's sin was part of His decree, and how He was to bring Glory to Himself through Jesus Christ.

Hyper-Calvinism, bah.

 

[john w]

You are the one concluding the sinner need not repent. Not me. In fact, if a sinner claims to believe in Jesus Christ but does not repent, then their faith is dead, and they make themselves to be liars.






Your logic is convoluted because your faulty premise says that one must decide to have faith in Jesus Christ in order to be born again.

Jesus taught just the opposite. John 3:3

1.Nope, according to Nangism, the regenerated sinner need not repent, or believe-he/she is already regenerated.. Ability to believe? For what purpose, and what? To believe the gospel? He/she is already regenerated w/o believing anything, the "argument" being that a depraved, no good sinner needs to be regenerated first, to be able to "believe the gospel,"i.e., he cannot believe until regenerated/given the ability to believe. Again, why? He/she is already regenerated.

2. I must be correct. Nang disagrees.

"Your logic is convoluted because your faulty premise says that one must decide to have faith in Jesus Christ in order to be born again.

Jesus taught just the opposite. John 3:3"-Nang

1. Nope. Do not mistake your lack of understanding of my logic, with any alleged "convoluted logic" on my part. With me, toots?

2. John 3:3 is not written to me as pertaining to "salvation"(Israel both nationally, and individually).

Next confused "Covy."

 

[heir]

All forms of dispensationalism produce a false gospel.

Nang calling the gospel of Christ a false gospel.

This is the gospel that we declare:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV

haha! This is an old thread. I just followed the post from another thread and replied. Oh well. I see Nang has been fighting the gospel of Christ for a long time. Nothing new from the religious, but lost.

 

[godrulz]

Dispensationalism is not the gospel nor is TULIP.