ECT Regeneration before repentance?

Brother Ducky

New member
Lydia in Acts 16:14 makes a "decision for Christ" but only after there is a change in her heart done by God. I take this to indicate that regeneration preceeds repentance.
How 'bout you?
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Lydia in Acts 16:14 makes a "decision for Christ" but only after there is a change in her heart done by God. I take this to indicate that regeneration preceeds repentance.
How 'bout you?

Indeed.

Sinners must be ~resurrected~ (regenerated) to new spiritual life, before they will ever repent or exhibit any faith in God.

Nang
 

godrulz

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Hall of Fame
Repentant faith precedes regeneration (virtually simultaneous).

In Calvinism, causative, decretal regeneration precedes faith, but this becomes problematic in making God's ways arbitrary (TULIP).

Count me out of Calvinism, except on basic issues like Christology.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Lydia in Acts 16:14 makes a "decision for Christ" but only after there is a change in her heart done by God. I take this to indicate that regeneration preceeds repentance.
How 'bout you?

Yes, phil 1:

29For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

It is given by the Holy Ghost to believe in Christ, all those whom Christ died for.

Also all for whom Christ died for He gives them repentance unto life !

acts 5:

31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Israel here is spiritual Israel and includes some gentiles acts 11:

18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Lydia in Acts 16:14 makes a "decision for Christ" but only after there is a change in her heart done by God. I take this to indicate that regeneration preceeds repentance.
How 'bout you?
Yup! The spiritually dead don't assent to anything until quickened by the Spirit to spiritual life. Lazarus was not contemplating a "free will" choice to obey the command of our Lord to "come forth". :squint:

AMR
 

godrulz

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Yup! The spiritually dead don't assent to anything until quickened by the Spirit to spiritual life. Lazarus was not contemplating a "free will" choice to obey the command of our Lord to "come forth". :squint:

AMR

Spiritual death/relational separation from God is not identical to physical death where our faculties are gone. God does not command men everywhere (Acts) to repent and believe if it is impossible to do so in response to His convincing/conviction. God alone regenerates, but it is not causative/coerced apart from our response to Him. The image of God is defaced, not erased in man (bondage of the will is an overstatement). There is not an identical correspondence between Lazarus and relational salvation (the analogy fails).
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Spiritual death/relational separation from God is not identical to physical death where our faculties are gone.

No, it is much worse! Physical loss of "faculties" only point to the horrible spiritual death and loss of the soul due to rebellion against God.

Physical death and the subsequent rotting of the body in the grave, is a picture of the "second death" when the souls of sinners will forever decay in Hell.


God does not command men everywhere (Acts) to repent and believe if it is impossible to do so in response to His convincing/conviction.

This "command" is reiteration of the everlasting Law of God, under which all men abide according to the original Covenant of Works. This Law is still taught . . .

But it IS impossible for spiritually dead sinners to spiritually function or respond in obedience under the Law towards God in any way. They can't, even when they make attempts at being "religious." No sinner can overcome his physical death, let alone reverse his spiritual death to which he is consigned.

The only power that convinces and convicts a sinner to repent and believe, is the power of the Holy Spirit, who first gives new life to that sinner, enabling him to repent and believe. Unless the Holy Spirit works in this way with spiritually dead sinners, they remain without any powers or abilities of their own to translate from death to life.


God alone regenerates, but it is not causative/coerced apart from our response to Him.

If God did not choose to bring some sinners to new life, no sinner would ever be able or willing to respond to God. Dead men, rotting away, cannot respond to life or living ever again.

Regeneration by the Holy Spirit is a great miracle and grace given from God . . . and that is exactly what you are denying. You deny God's power and grace. Tsk, tsk!


The image of God is defaced, not erased in man (bondage of the will is an overstatement).

And you deny the doctrine of Total Depravity. Such is the heresy called "Pelagianism."


There is not an identical correspondence between Lazarus and relational salvation (the analogy fails).

The truth only fails to be effectual, due to unbelief and denial of truth. Only those given new spiritual eyes from the power and grace of God, are enabled to see. The rest remain spiritually dead and blind.

Nang
 

M. K. Nawojski

New member
No, it is much worse! Physical loss of "faculties" only point to the horrible spiritual death and loss of the soul due to rebellion against God.

Physical death and the subsequent rotting of the body in the grave, is a picture of the "second death" when the souls of sinners will forever decay in Hell.




This "command" is reiteration of the everlasting Law of God, under which all men abide according to the original Covenant of Works. This Law is still taught . . .

But it IS impossible for spiritually dead sinners to spiritually function or respond in obedience under the Law towards God in any way. They can't, even when they make attempts at being "religious." No sinner can overcome his physical death, let alone reverse his spiritual death to which he is consigned.

The only power that convinces and convicts a sinner to repent and believe, is the power of the Holy Spirit, who first gives new life to that sinner, enabling him to repent and believe. Unless the Holy Spirit works in this way with spiritually dead sinners, they remain without any powers or abilities of their own to translate from death to life.




If God did not choose to bring some sinners to new life, no sinner would ever be able or willing to respond to God. Dead men, rotting away, cannot respond to life or living ever again.

Regeneration by the Holy Spirit is a great miracle and grace given from God . . . and that is exactly what you are denying. You deny God's power and grace. Tsk, tsk!




And you deny the doctrine of Total Depravity. Such is the heresy called "Pelagianism."




The truth only fails to be effectual, due to unbelief and denial of truth. Only those given new spiritual eyes from the power and grace of God, are enabled to see. The rest remain spiritually dead and blind.

Nang

Thanks for this clear post, Nang. Your point re physical loss of faculties--because of the Fall of Adam--and how this relates to (and highlights) man's corresponding spiritual death is good.

And yes, the Scriptures are also clear that--since the Fall--mankind is totally unwilling AND unable to respond favorably to the Word of God apart from the quickening power of the Spirit.

MK
 

Zeke

Well-known member
Spiritual death/relational separation from God is not identical to physical death where our faculties are gone. God does not command men everywhere (Acts) to repent and believe if it is impossible to do so in response to His convincing/conviction. God alone regenerates, but it is not causative/coerced apart from our response to Him. The image of God is defaced, not erased in man (bondage of the will is an overstatement). There is not an identical correspondence between Lazarus and relational salvation (the analogy fails).

Paul wasn't speaking of just the physical death of the body in Romans 6. He is refering to the carnel nature all the sons of adam are born with, except you, you didn't receive your adamic nature at birth like the rest of, you found it at the altar of humanism which doesn't want to believe man is a fallen creature.
You have more in common with freelight than you think.
 
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godrulz

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Paul wasn't speaking of just the physical death of the body in Romans 6. He is refering to the carnel nature all the sons of adam are born with, except you, you didn't receive you adamic nature at birth like the rest of, you found it at the altar of humanism which doesn't want to believe man is a fallen creature.
You have more in common with freelight than you think.

I have little in common with freelight.

Nang and others, I do not deny the necessity of the work of the Spirit to provide, initiate, draw, influence, convince, convict, but I do deny causative, coercive, decretal, determinism, because this is not the biblical view. Neither of us believe we can save ourselves (saying faith is a work is a Calvinistic myth and misrepresentation of other views).

Denying Augustinian, Lutheran, Catholic, traditional 'original sin; total depravity' (which is not a denial of man as sinner in need of Savior; depravity is not total inability either) is NOT a denial of Scripture nor tantamount to humanism.

:argue::p
 

godrulz

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Faith and Repentance are evidences of the New Birth, not the causes.

Repentant faith is the revealed CONDITION, not cause, of new birth. The Spirit alone causes regeneration in both our views. God does not foist regeneration on those who refuse to come to Him for life. He does not arbitrarily zap some and not others in light of impartial love and justice.
 

OMEGA

New member
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature:
old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

========================
Regeneration is the sovereign act of God whereby He imparts His very life and His very nature to the believing sinner (John 1:12-13; Titus 3:5). Man’s first birth is natural; his second birth is spiritual and supernatural. His first birth makes him a member of a fallen race; his second birth makes him a member of a redeemed race. His first birth gives him a depraved nature (Eph. 2:3); his second birth makes him partaker of the divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4). The moment a person is born again he receives a new life (John 6:47; 1 John 5:12) and a new position as a child of God (John 1:12; 1 John 3:1-2).
In short, he is a new creature in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17).

=============================

Basically God has to open the mnd before Repentance is even considered.

So, therefore, the Attitude has to be changed before the Holy Spirit is given

and good deeds must prevail.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
omega:

Regeneration is the sovereign act of God whereby He imparts His very life and His very nature to the believing sinner

Sure, but only the believing is a result of the imparted life, and the cause of the believing.

Thats why Jesus says Jn 6:

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Without being in the possession of eternal life, one cannot believe in Christ.
 

Ktoyou

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Lydia in Acts 16:14 makes a "decision for Christ" but only after there is a change in her heart done by God. I take this to indicate that regeneration preceeds repentance.
How 'bout you?

Your link is not working, yet I believe Lydia worshiped God before God accepted her repentance/ it could support both views:

repentance>regeneration

regeneration>repentance
 

notreligus

New member
If you have a Bible database or Bible program, do a search of the word "repent." Most mentions are in the Gospels and in Acts. What would Lydia, a Gentile, have need of changing her mind about? (Repentence is a change of mind.) She was not a Jew. She did not need to re-think her faith due to Christ being her promised Messiah. Lydia was affected by the work of the Holy Spirit. When she yielded to Him then she became a new creation in Christ.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
If you have a Bible database or Bible program, do a search of the word "repent." Most mentions are in the Gospels and in Acts. What would Lydia, a Gentile, have need of changing her mind about? (Repentence is a change of mind.) She was not a Jew. She did not need to re-think her faith due to Christ being her promised Messiah. Lydia was affected by the work of the Holy Spirit. When she yielded to Him then she became a new creation in Christ.


Godly repentance is turning away from sin. Lydia was as much a sinner as any Jew.

This obsession with establishing spiritual differences between Jews and Gentiles is blinding folks from the universal truths of the Bible that apply to all sinners alike!

Dispensational "theology" is the cause of such mistaken obsession and Jewish emphasis, which results in different gospels for different folk, and proves to be nothing less than Satanic, for it hinders the modern mind from any kind of global thinking or evaluation and application of Holy Scripture and the gospel of Jesus Christ to all souls alike.

Nang
 

beloved57

Well-known member
not religous:

What would Lydia, a Gentile, have need of changing her mind about?

God granted repentance to the gentiles acts 11:

18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Your link is not working, yet I believe Lydia worshiped God before God accepted her repentance/ it could support both views:

repentance>regeneration

regeneration>repentance

No sinner has the capacity to truly "worship" God before and unless God first grants that sinner repentance from sin. And that capacity to repent comes only from being spiritually born again from above.

There is no such thing as remorse or practice of religiousity counting as genuine repentance, unless it comes as the fruit of the working of the Holy Spirit on the individual heart . . .and that necessary working is called "regeneration."

No regeneration>no legitimate repentance>no acceptable worship


Nang
 
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