ECT Regeneration before repentance?
- Thread starter Brother Ducky
- Start date
beloved57
Well-known member
nang:
Thats correct, Lydia had been regenerated but not yet enlightened by the Gospel, but regeneration prepared her heart to receive the Truth of the gospel, because she had a spiritual capacity to receive them because of regeneration.
The same thing with cornelius, He was regenerated prior to being sent the gospel, for He feared and worshipped God before God sent him the gospel through peter.
acts 10:
There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
Notice, they feared God ! Now we know that men by nature do not fear God according to rom 3:
17And the way of peace have they not known:
18There is no fear of God before their eyes.
So for in order to say cornelius feared God and to have been accepted of God
acts 10:
4And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Then we can infer that He was already regenerated, a new creation !
Thats correct, Lydia had been regenerated but not yet enlightened by the Gospel, but regeneration prepared her heart to receive the Truth of the gospel, because she had a spiritual capacity to receive them because of regeneration.
The same thing with cornelius, He was regenerated prior to being sent the gospel, for He feared and worshipped God before God sent him the gospel through peter.
acts 10:
There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
Notice, they feared God ! Now we know that men by nature do not fear God according to rom 3:
17And the way of peace have they not known:
18There is no fear of God before their eyes.
So for in order to say cornelius feared God and to have been accepted of God
acts 10:
4And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Then we can infer that He was already regenerated, a new creation !
Nang
TOL Subscriber
All forms of dispensationalism produce a false gospel.
God has given adequate explanation for saving some but not all men, and that is found within the expression of His sovereign will:
"For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.'" Romans 9:15
That is sufficient explanation for me and I accept it. By faith, I believe what God says.
You do not accept nor believe God's word; thus, you have made up a different God according to your own image and worship unscripturally and falsely.
Very serious stuff . . .
Nang
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Yep.
1 Cor 15
1: Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2: By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3: For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4: And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Sadly, this is a prime example of the intellectual weakness of dispensational teaching. You quote one passage that gives a summary of the gospel message, and you are satisfied.
Then, you spend years coordinating a destruction and demolition of the rest of the teachings found in the bible.
The entire word of God contains the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." II Timothy 3:16-17
Dispensationalism sets out to rob souls of this great promise, by dissecting the Scriptures and refusing application of many passages of God's word to needy sinners, under the invented guise that God harbors multiple and various intents for different "kinds" (or races) of men.
The best thing that can be said of dispensationalism, is that it's adherents are totally confused and deceived.
The worst thing that can be said of dispensationalism, is that it is a deliberate and devilish teaching, meant to obscure God's eternal purposes, tweak His holy revelation to mankind, and destroy the power of the cross of Jesus Christ.
Nang
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
1 Cor 15
1: Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2: By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3: For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4: And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Nang vs. God. Notice the contrast.
This gospel irritates Nang because it is often preached to those unfortunate "non-elect" ones, whom Christ did not die for.
beloved57
Well-known member
nang:
Right, that it is a summary is right, for gal 3 8 contains the gospel too Gal 3:
8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
This Truth must fit into the Gospel, as well as this one 2 tim 2:8
Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
How does that Truth fit into the Gospel, Christ being of the seed of David ?
Right, that it is a summary is right, for gal 3 8 contains the gospel too Gal 3:
8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
This Truth must fit into the Gospel, as well as this one 2 tim 2:8
Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
How does that Truth fit into the Gospel, Christ being of the seed of David ?
jobeth
Member
Brother Ducky:
It was not regeneration that caused Lydia to give heed to what Paul was saying. Rather it was latent faith.
Salvation is by faith. Faith is by hearing. And hearing is by the Word of God. (Rom 10:17) We are born again only after we hear the gospel and believe it. (Eph 1:13) God did not create everyone alike. Yes, we are all born spiritually dead. But some of us are foreknown by God and some are not. Some are predestinated to Life and some are not. God knows those whom He has implanted latent Faith within. That latent Faith was arbitrarily given us before we were born, so that when we hear the true gospel, we will and cannot fail to believe it. That is, if you can hear the gospel without rejecting it outright, or falling away, or becoming unfruitful, then it is by Grace (God’s arbitrary choice) that you hear, and believe, and do not fall away and become unfruitful.
Salvation has three components. Irreducibly, the components or conditions for Salvation are Grace, Faith, and The gospel. We are not saved by Grace alone. Nor are we saved by the Gospel alone. Rather, we are saved by Grace through Faith in the Gospel. The gospel is the catalyst that activates the reactant faith that lies dormant in His sheep (the Elect of God). Faith is at first dormant in those predestined to salvation and only becomes quickened and apparent by their hearing the gospel and believing it.
It is that latent Faith within the Elect that causes us to pay heed when someone is teaching the True Gospel. And once the sheep hear His voice, they cannot help but respond and believe it.
God created both the sheep and the goats and He knows which is which and who goes where. Salvation comes by Faith alone. Faith is essential for salvation. No one will be saved without faith. And everyone who is ultimately saved previously had to have faith. If God sovereignly saves the ones He chooses, then why is faith required of us? It isn’t. Faith isn’t something God requires from us in order that we are saved. Rather Faith is something God implanted within us in order that we would be saved.
The People of God are Known of God in the same way that Adam knew his wife Eve and she conceived. God Knew us from before the foundation of the world when He implanted within us that Latent Faith with which we will inevitably believe.
This is why we must preach the gospel. There are many people out there among the masses who have that Latent Faith and they are only waiting to Hear the Gospel in order to Come to Life.
Many will hear and not Come to Life.
Matthew 13:14-16 (KJV)
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Eschatological, covenantal, dispensational issues are not core gospel issues. One can hold to a variety of views on the continuity/discontinuity of redemptive history without denying the person and work of Christ. You are making the same mistake as beloved/hyper-Calvinist and STP/johnw/butterfly/LH/Voltaire by making MAD or Calvinism into a sect. A rejection of these views is not tantamount to a false gospel!
A context of sovereign election of national Israel for mission cannot be proof texted for individual redemptive issues. You also divorce issues of character from power. Sovereignty (yours is hyper/deterministic vs biblical) is not an excuse for impugning God's impartial character. You proof text out of context, nothing more. To attribute evil to God and accept it by faith is lame if you are dead wrong in your assumption (leading to wrong conclusion).
Rejecting Calvinism is not rejecting the uncreated triune Creator nor the Deity/resurrection of Christ (in favor of Allah, Jehovah of Watchtower, Jesus of Mormonism, etc.). It is sheer ignorance and arrogance to think that rejecting Calvinistic error on sovereignty/TULIP is like worshipping a false god/idol (lack integrity/credibility to suggest this). :bang:
beloved57
Well-known member
One must be spiritually alive to hear spiritually. All cannot hear Gods word. Jn 8:
43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Rom 10 17 states that hearing comes by the rhema, the Living voice of God.
Its by the living voice of Christ that one hears and has faith. Jesus said jn 10:
27My sheep hear my voice[/B], and I know them, and they follow me:
Nang
TOL Subscriber
This sounds plausible, except it does not accord with the teachings of Total Depravity and Accursedness found elsewhere in the Holy Scriptures.
You are describing a communicable attribute of God (faithfulness), being implanted in a spiritually dead soul. A soul that does not have the life of Christ present and abiding within.
Which means you have separated a Godly attribute from God. This cannot be.
No sinner can possess faith, latent or otherwise, apart from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And the Spirit of Christ only comes to abide with a sinner at the point of regeneration.
The primary basis for God knowing whom He will gift with faith to believe the Gospel, is His electing Decree. IOW's, the elect sons of God are always and only known IN CHRIST. There is no way a sinner can harbor just a portion of the Person of Christ (faithfulness), without being in total union with Christ. Which only follows Justification, which only follows the Atonement, which only follows the effectual Call to life, repentance, and faith.
Where do you find this teaching in the Bible? You are confounding the Scriptural teaching of Election according to eternal Decree, with temporal conversion events, which is not proper doctrine at all.
You are attributing a spiritual ability and quality to sinners (even if it is supposedly sleeping and inactive), that they are not born with unless regenerated by the Spirit in the womb.
The three "components" of salvation are:
The Father's Unconditional Election
The Son's Limited Atonement
The Holy Spirit's effectual call and regeneration to new life.
Grace, and faith to believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the result of the three necessities.
Underlined emphasis, mine.
This is subtle but serious error, for it makes the exercise of faith to be a human work upon which the efficacy of the Gospel depends.
Regeneration brings new spiritual life, and hearing the Gospel preached is God's means of gifting the new creature with faith and repentance.
You are omitting the necessity of the power and presence of the Holy Spirit in your scheme of events.
Now you are changing the eternal Law of God, and thereby changing the Gospel message. The Law (which draws sinners to their need of Christ) certainly proclaims the requirement that all men believe and have faith in Christ. But the Law also reveals that no man CAN or WILL do so. Thus, the need for the Savior!
Faith is a duty under the Law, that a sinner can only receive through the imputation of Christ's righteous obedience under that Law. To say otherwise, is to omit the importance of Christ's atonement that satisfied the old Covenant of Works, in order to establish legal basis for providing a new Covenant of Grace for His people.
If a person tweaks and twists the Holy Scriptures even just a little bit, in order to make pleasant and reasonable sounds, the end result is always serious heresy.
Underlined emphasis of erroneous teaching, mine again.
I do not disagree with you that God intimately knew His own, IN CHRIST, nor do I disagree with you that His means of calling them to Justification by Faith is through the preaching of the Gospel, but I disagree with the notion that a "latent faith" is implanted in sinners apart from the life-giving power of the Holy Spirit of Christ.
Everlasting life does not follow an exhibition of faith. Faith follows Godly grace (regeneration) that provides everlasting life.
Nang
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Indeed. I do not disagree that faith comes by hearing the word of God. That is exactly when faith is gifted from God.
I am disagreeing that faith exists in any sinner apart from God's power and life.
Life (regeneration) precedes faith.
Nang
beloved57
Well-known member
nang:
yes, except plain human Faith.
Absolutely. Which life is communicated from the Head to its members. Jn 1:
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Jesus christ through regeneration of the Spirit imparts His life to elect men and women, and that gives them light to see the gospel.
lk 2:
32A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
yes, except plain human Faith.
Absolutely. Which life is communicated from the Head to its members. Jn 1:
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Jesus christ through regeneration of the Spirit imparts His life to elect men and women, and that gives them light to see the gospel.
lk 2:
32A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
jobeth
Member
Wrong.
John 5:28-29 (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Yes, Jesus knew the difference between those who will and those who cannot hear Him.
Romans 1:16 (KJV)
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Yes, Jesus knows who are sheep and who are goats because He made them all, inside and out.
Luke 11:40 (KJV)
40 Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also?
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jobeth
Member
I do not believe in either Total Depravity or Limited Atonement. That's why I call it the Westminster Confusion of Faith.
Will you let me ask you a question? Why would God make everyone into goats and then later on change some of them into sheep? Why not do it right the first time?
Romans 9:21 (KJV)
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
His sheep hear His voice and believe Him. It is His words that bring the sheep to life, but the same words have no affect on the goats. John 6:63 It is the gospel itself that is the power of God unto salvation for them that are predestined to believe. Rom 1:16; 8:30
I agree with you that the ability to believe is a gift from God. (Predestination). The difference is that I believe that ability is given before we are born physically, (Eph 1:4) while Total Depravity says it is only given after we are born physically.
And scripture says that it is AFTER we (the Elect) hear the gospel of Christ that we put our Trust/Faith in Him and are born again of the HS. Eph 1:13
I only ask that you consider the timing apart from the (erroneous) doctrine of Total Depravity which leads to the other erroneous and horrible teaching of God arbitrarily reprobating men after they hear the gospel, when scripture teaches that they are pre-condemned not reprobated. John 3:18; Mark 14:21
Nang
TOL Subscriber
The Westminster Confession of Faith only teaches what the Holy Scriptures teach. The doctrines of Total Depravity and Limited Atonement are sourced from the Bible.
All persons descend from one man . . . Adam. God created Adam upright, but Adam corrupted himself with sin and thereby corrupted all his offspring, too.
Why did God not make Adam perfect? Even God cannot create another God. The very definition of God is uncreated.
Here you quote your own answer. The lump of clay was Adam, and from Adam came many vessels. God sovereignly chose to save some of them to manifest His pure grace and honor His name. The vessels chosen to honor were no better in nature than the others, but in Jesus Christ they were forgiven and made whole.
So what you are really questioning, is why did manifest Jesus Christ? Why did God find it necessary to send His Son into this world?
Are you sure you want to question God about the wonders of the Incarnation?
Well, that is what this thread is all about. I simply disagree and say that no dead sinner has the capacity to hear or believe the gospel unless the Holy Spirit first regenerates them to new spiritual life.
The fact that many do not hear or believe the gospel is because many are not born again by the Spirit of Christ. They remain in their depravity and sins and are not given "ears to hear."
God does not reprobate men "after they hear the gospel."
Adam was the cause of all persons being born with a depraved and sinful nature. God could have let the entire human race perish in such a condition.
However, God chose to extend grace to some, predestinating them to everlasting life in and through faith in His Son, Jesus Christ. The rest of humanity will manifest God's holy justice and suffer righteous judgment for their sins.
So this means God is in sovereign control of who will believe the gospel and who will not. (Isaiah 6:9-10) Election to honor or dishonor was established by eternal decree before the foundation of the world.
(Ephesians 1:3-14)
The actions of men do not determine their fate. If that were true, all men would end up in hell, for "there is none righteous, no not one." It is solely the grace and goodness of God that saves some sinners from what they rightly deserve.
May God receive all the glory for providing His Son to this sorry world!
Nang
Brother Ducky
New member
I would argue that a correct statement would be something like "In Biblical Christianity, causative, decretal regeneration precedes faith." But I do have Christian Brothers and Sisters in Christ who would disagree with that statement.
I am wondering about the concern about God's ways being arbitrary. How is "arbitrary" being defined here that it is considered bad. It seems to me that God is God and He can do whatever He wants to do. He, of course, would never do anything contrary to His nature, which precluded His doing anything "bad."