ECT Refuting Limited Atonement

[DAN P]

According to Paul, it's the Gospel.

Hi and maybe you should have written down for AMR , Eph 3:9 and why it was " HIDDEN " from the generations and the AGES , Col 1:25 to complete the word of God !!

Why not use Heb 2:9 , that Jesus would TASTE DEATH for everyone !!

By the way , the verb " should TASTE " is in the Aorist tense or the Past tense , looking back TO THE cross , but controlled by the SUBJUCTIVE MOOD , which to me means , that even though DYING for all , NOT ALL WILL BE SAVED !!

But I am with you in 1 cor 15:1-4 !

dan p

 

[Nang]

Yes - though since he was rejected he was never made king. We will have to wait for next time.

How could rejection by men, rob Jesus Christ of His divine royal title of "King"?

Do you believe that He fulfilled these three offices while suffering on the cross?

 

[tetelestai]

How could rejection by men, rob Jesus Christ of His divine royal title of "King"?

:thumb:

Christ Jesus is King of kings, and Lord of lords.

Good to see you Nang, hope all is well.

Warmest Regards,

tet

 

[Sonnet]

How could rejection by men, rob Jesus Christ of His divine royal title of "King"?

They couldn't.

Do you believe that He fulfilled these three offices while suffering on the cross?

Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honour because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Revelation 19:16
On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS

 

[Nang]

Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honour because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Revelation 19:16
On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS

Revelation 19:16 confirms Jesus Christ's titles as being everlasting, and when studying the atonement and cross work of the Savior, first and foremost it is important to realize the Godly titles and capacities of who died.

I believe the Holy Scriptures, throughout, speak of Messiah as being The Prophet, Priest, and King, so when when He was manifested in this world, lived, died, and resurrected bodily, He did so as Prophet, Priest, and King.

Which means these offices were fulfilled in His act of Atonement, which Holy Scripture clearly teaches in Hebrews 7:22-28. Jesus the Christ, offered His body and blood as the everlasting Priest, as the provided SURETY of forgiveness of sins. His sacrifice fulfilled all covenant promises and prophecy, with royal blood!

There can be no doubt to a child of God, thus justified in the eyes of God, that Jesus Christ guaranteed them remission of sins and promises everlasting life. The King has acted on their behalf, and lives as their Priest in heaven, to continually intercede for them on their behalf upon the heavenly throne. (I John 1-10)

This was no stop-gap atonement. It was a final atonement.

Jesus did not taste and suffer death, just to offer a possibility of forgiveness IF sinners would just believe in His cross work. No . . those for whom this Prophet, Priest and King died WILL believe without fail. Because they are the beneficiaries of the covenant promises which God the Son performed and kept.

The Gospel message is not conditional. The souls given to Jesus Christ to reconcile to the Father WILL believe. For He is their SURETY and He sends His Holy Spirit to them to regenerate their hearts and gift them with faith to believe; guaranteeing their heavenly inheritance and hopes of everlasting life. Ephesians 2:13-14

The above is not universally manifested in this world. Multitudes remain in the darkness of unbelief and condemnation. Not because they failed to "accept" the Christ, but because He never knew them, as He knows those the Father gave Him to save.

The touching prayer of Jesus to the Father in John 17 reveals that Jesus did not pray for or about the world at large, but only those for whom He came to suffer and die. These alone WILL hear and believe the Gospel and inherit eternal life.

Salvation is not conditional upon the sinners' choice . . salvation has SURELY been bought with the royal blood of Jesus Christ, who is our Prophet, Priest, and King forever.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Please present an argument that actually refutes the OP rather than huge documents on limited atonement.

"Thirty minutes or its free"...sigh.

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...ed-Atonement&p=4683296&viewfull=1#post4683296

AMR

 

[Sonnet]

Revelation 19:16 confirms Jesus Christ's titles as being everlasting, and when studying the atonement and cross work of the Savior, first and foremost it is important to realize the Godly titles and capacities of who died.

I believe the Holy Scriptures, throughout, speak of Messiah as being The Prophet, Priest, and King, so when when He was manifested in this world, lived, died, and resurrected bodily, He did so as Prophet, Priest, and King.

Which means these offices were fulfilled in His act of Atonement, which Holy Scripture clearly teaches in Hebrews 7:22-28. Jesus the Christ, offered His body and blood as the everlasting Priest, as the provided SURETY of forgiveness of sins. His sacrifice fulfilled all covenant promises and prophecy, with royal blood!

There can be no doubt to a child of God, thus justified in the eyes of God, that Jesus Christ guaranteed them remission of sins and promises everlasting life. The King has acted on their behalf, and lives as their Priest in heaven, to continually intercede for them on their behalf upon the heavenly throne. (I John 1-10)

This was no stop-gap atonement. It was a final atonement.

Okay.

Jesus did not taste and suffer death, just to offer a possibility of forgiveness IF sinners would just believe in His cross work. No . . those for whom this Prophet, Priest and King died WILL believe without fail.

Christ died for all men as scripture says many times. There are no scriptures that teach limited atonement.

1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:1-4, 1 Timothy 1:16, John 3:16, Titus 2:11, Hebrews 2:9.

Because they are the beneficiaries of the covenant promises which God the Son performed and kept.

The Gospel message is not conditional. The souls given to Jesus Christ to reconcile to the Father WILL believe. For He is their SURETY and He sends His Holy Spirit to them to regenerate their hearts and gift them with faith to believe; guaranteeing their heavenly inheritance and hopes of everlasting life. Ephesians 2:13-14

Assertion. Saul/Paul is a good example - he still had to believe and be obedient. Your statement leaves those 'passed by' without a Gospel.

The above is not universally manifested in this world. Multitudes remain in the darkness of unbelief and condemnation. Not because they failed to "accept" the Christ, but because He never knew them, as He knows those the Father gave Him to save.

That being the case then it would be disingenuous for Jesus to say: "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent"

The touching prayer of Jesus to the Father in John 17 reveals that Jesus did not pray for or about the world at large, but only those for whom He came to suffer and die. These alone WILL hear and believe the Gospel and inherit eternal life.

Jesus praying for his apostles and those that will believe says nothing about limited atonement

Salvation is not conditional upon the sinners' choice . . salvation has SURELY been bought with the royal blood of Jesus Christ, who is our Prophet, Priest, and King forever.

You haven't proved this.

None of this deals with the specifics of the OP.

Is Corinthians 15:3-4 the Gospel or not?

 

[Nang]

None of this deals with the specifics of the OP.

My replies to you, give you specific, scriptural, and spiritual reasons why Limited Atonement cannot be refuted, premised upon WHO promised, performed, and acted as Surety for His atoning death, and to whom the powers of forgiveness of sin is granted.

Jesus Christ did not suffer a substitutional death, and die for millions in vain. He achieved exactly and completely what He willed and was sent to do. Justification was worked for all those the Father gave Him (the invisible church).

Is Corinthians 15:3-4 the Gospel or not?

Asked and answered . . I Corinthians 15:3&4 is one declaration of the Gospel, out of all the other gospel teachings in the entire Bible. But the gospel message is not limited to those few words alone, for all the Holy Scriptures declare the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Sonnet]

A post a few minutes following my own tells me you took no time to digest linked content and dig a wee bit deeper. Yours is but "mere Christianity", much akin to the superficiality that surrounds the church today in our thirty minutes or its free society seeking quick answers to weighty matters.

Odd that the writer of most of the NT wasted so many words on this few sentence "gospel" that you are flirting with. Even more odd that folks like Peter found Paul to be a deep read. Glad you have it all figured out. Too bad you were not around to explain things to Peter at the time. :AMR:

Dig deeper:
http://www.apuritansmind.com/the-ch...stance-of-the-gospel-by-dr-c-matthew-mcmahon/

AMR

I have begun to read it. Whilst I do so please dwell on this:

Paul states that 1 Corinthians 15:3-5 is the Gospel, he declares that he and the Apostles preached it and he affirms that the unsaved Corinthians believed it.

You, however, wont preach such a Gospel to the unsaved. That's two Gospels.

 

[Sonnet]

My replies to you, give you specific, scriptural, and spiritual reasons why Limited Atonement cannot be refuted, premised upon WHO promised, performed, and acted as Surety for His atoning death, and to whom the powers of forgiveness of sin is granted.

Jesus Christ did not suffer a substitutional death, and die for millions in vain. He achieved exactly and completely what He willed and was sent to do. Justification was worked for all those the Father gave Him (the invisible church).

Hebrews 7:25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Jesus saves only those who come through Him. That excludes no one.

Hebrews 7:27-28 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

Since not all 'the people' were saved then you have not proved what you are attempting.

Asked and answered . . I Corinthians 15:3&4 is one declaration of the Gospel, out of all the other gospel teachings in the entire Bible. But the gospel message is not limited to those few words alone, for all the Holy Scriptures declare the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Granted, but it is the essence of the Gospel - Christ's death and resurrection cannot be overlooked.

Since you accept that it is one declaration of the Gospel, then I am presume you will have no objection to declaring in your next response this:

To any unsaved person reading this post: Christ died for our sins, he was buried and raised on the third day and he was seen alive by over five hundred people.

 

[DAN P]

Hebrews 7:25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Jesus saves only those who come through Him. That excludes no one.

Hebrews 7:27-28 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

Since not all 'the people' were saved then you have not proved what you are attempting.



Granted, but it is the essence of the Gospel - Christ's death and resurrection cannot be overlooked.

Since you accept that it is one declaration of the Gospel, then I am presume you will have no objection to declaring in your next response this:

To any unsaved person reading this post: Christ died for our sins, he was buried and raised on the third day and he was seen alive by over five hundred people.

Hi and it is obviously that John 19:30 refutes Limited Atonement as Jesus said " it is FINISHED " which is verb in the PERFECT TENSE , PASSIVE VOICE and in the INDICATIVE MOOD which means Jesus death for sins is PAST , PRESENT and in the FUITURE , period !!

dan p

 

[jamie]

Is Corinthians 15:3-4 the Gospel or not?

What Paul said to the Corinthians is one aspect of Jesus' gospel. Paul had already told the Corinthians that Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. And in 1 Corinthians 11 Paul explained how Passover should be observed in the context of the NT.

We need to keep in mind that Paul's gospel was about Israel and the Gentiles being welcomed into God's kingdom.

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. (Ephesians 2:13-18)​

 

[Sonnet]

A post a few minutes following my own tells me you took no time to digest linked content and dig a wee bit deeper. Yours is but "mere Christianity", much akin to the superficiality that surrounds the church today in our thirty minutes or its free society seeking quick answers to weighty matters.

Odd that the writer of most of the NT wasted so many words on this few sentence "gospel" that you are flirting with. Even more odd that folks like Peter found Paul to be a deep read. Glad you have it all figured out. Too bad you were not around to explain things to Peter at the time. :AMR:

Dig deeper:
http://www.apuritansmind.com/the-ch...stance-of-the-gospel-by-dr-c-matthew-mcmahon/

AMR

It's curious that author McMahon says this:

Many ancient writers believed that 2 Corinthians 5:18-21 was a very well defined summation of the Gospel. As John Owen’s states in his Christologia, “This is the substance of the Gospel, as it is declared by the apostle, 2 Corinthians 5:18-21” Such a sublime summary is seen in that text, “Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” Such is the sum and substance of our Gospel message both stated and preached.​

If this is to be preached to the unsaved then the notion that Christ did not die for all is refuted.

"We implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

"We implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

"We implore you to be reconciled...as we were so reconciled, us.

Such is the command, be reconciled, made in the promiscuous outward call to sinners as sinners, for it is the duty of all to believe, whether they are able to believe or not. For more see: http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?117063-Calvinists-Dilemma&p=4667384&viewfull=1#post4667384

AMR

 

[Sonnet]

"We implore you to be reconciled...as we were so reconciled, us.

The auditor would not exclude themself from that pronoun employed in such preaching. The preacher is de facto telling his unsaved audience that Jesus was made sin for them. That equates to Christ dying for them.

Such is the command, be reconciled, made in the promiscuous outward call to sinners as sinners, for it is the duty of all to believe, whether they are able to believe or not. For more see: http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?117063-Calvinists-Dilemma&p=4667384&viewfull=1#post4667384

AMR

Will respond.

 

[Sonnet]

Such is the command, be reconciled, made in the promiscuous outward call to sinners as sinners, for it is the duty of all to believe, whether they are able to believe or not. For more see: http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?117063-Calvinists-Dilemma&p=4667384&viewfull=1#post4667384

AMR

The doctrine of the free or well-meant offer of the gospel depends in part on a theological distinction between God’s decretive will and God’s preceptive will. God’s decretive will is what God has resolved to carry out Himself. God’s preceptive will refers to God’s commandments and ethical expectations for humans.

It is not illogical or schizophrenic for Apostle Paul to desire all sinners to be saved, on the one hand, and yet to affirm God only decrees some sinners to be saved, on the other hand. Paul did not know, nor do we, who God did and did not elect unto salvation.

Since God is sovereign, then certainly he would foreknow everything.

We are commanded to preach the gospel promiscuously and rest in the fact that none who call upon the name of the Lord will be turned away. Attempting to bring the decretive will of God into the command to go into the world is an unsanctioned desire to peek behind the curtain to see what God is up to, contrary to Deut. 29:29.

If Deut 29:29 is as you say then you would not be permitted to speak on a doctrine you think is from God.

We must give priority to the revealed will (the preceptive will) of God over the secret will (the decretive will) in the outworking of salvation in any individual’s experience. The Scriptures reveal to men, as creatures, to have creaturely confidence, the maximal possible confidence they can have, that Christ is offered for their salvation in the Gospel. They need not peer into hidden things and wonder about whether they have been hypothetically or really decreed to believe the Gospel. It is sufficient for them to hear and believe or reject the historical proclamation of the Gospel.

You must say this regarding the Gospel because revealing your doctrine of particular redemption almost guarantees it's inefficacy.

 

[Sonnet]

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?117063-Calvinists-Dilemma&p=4667384&viewfull=1#post4667384

AMR

Of course the offer of the Gospel is a loving request of God. The gospel holds out the love of God to sinners. But it does this indefinitely, to sinners as sinners, not to this or that man in particular. It is the person who believes the gospel and closes with Christ who knows himself as the particular object of love and redemption.

The gospel offer is, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." Holy Scripture teaches it in express terms. Nowhere in Scripture do we find a sinner addressed with the offer, "Christ died for you if you will believe on Him." Your hypothetical universalism is an invention of the human brain. It is pure sentimentality. It begins with an anthropocentric view of God's love and works its way like leaven through the Scripture's soteriological system until it has taken away the assurance of faith. Your hypothetical universalism swallows up the bread of life in pure conjecture. Having no real basis in the saving work of Christ, your view has to create artificial categories and speak of hypotheticals as if they were real.

Zero scriptures speak of limited atonement but many do of Christ dying for all.

Particular redemption is true because it sets forth an actual, real redemption of men as sinners, and the gospel offers this particular redemption to sinners as such. No person has to go up to heaven to discover God's secret decree to give faith and repentance to some. No person has to descend into the depths of their own experience to conclude they have been called. The gospel itself gives a full and free warrant to receive and rest upon Christ alone for salvation.

TULIP, de facto, makes faith, for those passed by, the equivalent of the obverse of Deuteronomy 30:11ff.

 

[Sonnet]

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?117063-Calvinists-Dilemma&p=4667384&viewfull=1#post4667384

We are to regard repentance and faith as the means by which the great commandment to love God and love our neighbor finds fulfillment. This duty to love God and neighbor existed before the fall and Adam certainly enjoyed the ability to do so. Our love of God is therefore still obligatory, and the means through which it is to be realized, namely repentance and faith, are likewise obligatory. All mankind owe God our love and trust by the very fact that all are His rational creatures. Adam had the ability to love and trust God before the Fall. All are still responsible to love and trust God despite the Fall.

Note that an imperative (the time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel) cannot be deduced from an indicative (man has the creaturely power within him to do as he is told). Romanists, Arminians, openists, and you assume that the biblical call to perfection implied it is a possibility. Thanks be to God Luther knew better!

Faith is not a work of righteousness. This permits man to do what you say is obligatory - namely exercise faith. And yet you also say he cannot. That's a contradiction.

What can be and what ought to be are not necessarily coordinate. That all who hear the Good News are under obligation to repent and believe, irrespective of election or reprobation, is not disproved by the reality of the fallen mind. After all, the elect had carnal minds, too, when they first heard the gospel. God's command to believe presupposes man's ability to do so.

Deuteronomy 30:11ff - Romans 10.

Two reasons should suffice. Firstly, in consideration of man's original ability, lost by the fall. Secondly, from a renewed ability, in which the Holy Spirit determines the will of the elect so that they can receive and embrace the gospel offer. The rabid Hyper-Calvinist will deny this "duty-faith" on the basis that man now has no ability to believe, but the proper response to that nonsense is that the Creditor does not lose His right simply because the Debtor has lost his estate.

How this resolves this issue is unclear.

In summary, fallen man is duty-bound to repent and believe in Christ—even though left to himself he is unable. Biblically speaking, responsibility to God does not imply or necessitate ability on our part. Yet, the basis and motive for the gospel call is not man's duty, but the grace of God in Christ. God everywhere in Scripture commands what man cannot supply, such that we may pray as did Augustine, Demand what You will, O Lord, and give what You demand.” Faith and repentance are not merely duties; they are also gifts of God. The warrant to believe is the revealed will (preceptive will) of God, but the gift to believe (actual salvation) is decreed by God (decretive will).

Same.

 

[Sonnet]

The OP with slight modifications:

There is but one Gospel.
I Corinthians 15:3-4 is the essence of the Gospel.
Paul preached the Gospel to unbelievers (Romans 15:20)
Therefore Paul declared to unbelievers that, 'Christ died for our sins.' (for Paul says: 'This is what we preach')

And, hence, Christ died for all men.

1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 1:15, John 3:14-16, Hebrews 2:9, 1 Timothy 2:3-6, Titus 2:11, Romans 5:6.

 

[Sonnet]

You can't take a few verses and claim this is the totality of the gospel.

Not the totality - but the essence. Paul declares it (vv.3-8) as the gospel:

v1.
Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.

There are real and false Christians. There are those with head faith, but aren't born of the Spirit. Obviously, unbelievers, those who reject Christ and die so in their sin, face damnation.

The whole gospel of what is saving faith isn't just a few one-liners. Yes, the saving work of Christ is available to the whole world, but this is a far cry from saying the whole world will be saved.

What about anything I have written suggests that all will be saved?