ECT Refuting Limited Atonement

[Sonnet]

There is but one Gospel.
1 Corinthians 15:3-4 is the Gospel.
Paul preached the Gospel to unbelievers (Romans 15:20)
Therefore Paul declared to unbelievers that, 'Christ died for our sins.'

And, hence, Christ died for all men. 1 John 2:2.
After all, this is the good news.

 

[themuzicman]

Technically, Christ propitiated the sins of the whole world, but close enough.

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

You can't take a few verses and claim this is the totality of the gospel. There are real and false Christians. There are those with head faith, but aren't born of the Spirit. Obviously, unbelievers, those who reject Christ and die so in their sin, face damnation.

The whole gospel of what is saving faith isn't just a few one-liners. Yes, the saving work of Christ is available to the whole world, but this is a far cry from saying the whole world will be saved. It's also a far cry from saying all hypocrites, paying lip service to Christ or playing church, are saved. Bottom line is this:

Matthew 7

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

A narrow gate, that few find, fake believers, that even sound a lot like televangelists, Christ doesn't even know. Do these things speak of universal atonement in the slightest way?

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 4

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Refuting Limited Atonement

This is what the doctrine of Limited Atonement consists of:

_____
The doctrine of definite atonement (or more commonly, limited atonement) addresses the purpose of the atoning death of Christ. It maintains that God's design and intent in sending Christ to die on the cross was to pay for the sins and secure the redemption of those whom God has predetermined to save, namely the elect. Therefore, the primary benefits of his death (especially as an atonement) were designed for and accrue only to believers.​

Atonement has always been limited, but not in the manner the doctrine of Limited Atonement claims.

The type or shadow of the atonement made by Jesus is the day of atonement (see Hebrews 9-10).
The atonement was provided for all the children of Israel.

Leviticus 16:29-30 29 And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you: 30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the Lord.​

But, not everybody received atonement on that day.

Leviticus 23:27-30 27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord. 28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the Lord your God. 29 For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people. 30 And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.​

Those that received atonement were not preselected by God, they were everyone that chose to obey God.
Those that did not receive atonement were not preselected by God, they were everyone that chose to reject God's commandments.

 

[Sonnet]

You can't take a few verses and claim this is the totality of the gospel. There are real and false Christians. There are those with head faith, but aren't born of the Spirit. Obviously, unbelievers, those who reject Christ and die so in their sin, face damnation.

Well Paul did so. His summary has the essence of the good news.

The whole gospel of what is saving faith isn't just a few one-liners. Yes, the saving work of Christ is available to the whole world, but this is a far cry from saying the whole world will be saved. It's also a far cry from saying all hypocrites, paying lip service to Christ or playing church, are saved. Bottom line is this:

Matthew 7

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

A narrow gate, that few find, fake believers, that even sound a lot like televangelists, Christ doesn't even know. Do these things speak of universal atonement in the slightest way?

I agree - not all will be saved - but the OP is about the extent of the provision of Grace.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

I think you read 'see' as something else.

John 4

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

?

None of this refutes the OP.

 

[Sonnet]

This is what the doctrine of Limited Atonement consists of:

_____
The doctrine of definite atonement (or more commonly, limited atonement) addresses the purpose of the atoning death of Christ. It maintains that God's design and intent in sending Christ to die on the cross was to pay for the sins and secure the redemption of those whom God has predetermined to save, namely the elect. Therefore, the primary benefits of his death (especially as an atonement) were designed for and accrue only to believers.​

Atonement has always been limited, but not in the manner the doctrine of Limited Atonement claims.

The type or shadow of the atonement made by Jesus is the day of atonement (see Hebrews 9-10).
The atonement was provided for all the children of Israel.

Leviticus 16:29-30 29 And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you: 30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the Lord.​

But, not everybody received atonement on that day.

Leviticus 23:27-30 27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord. 28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the Lord your God. 29 For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people. 30 And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.​

Those that received atonement were not preselected by God, they were everyone that chose to obey God.
Those that did not receive atonement were not preselected by God, they were everyone that chose to reject God's commandments.

Interesting.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

There is but one Gospel.
1 Corinthians 15:3-4 is the Gospel.
Paul preached the Gospel to unbelievers (Romans 15:20)
Therefore Paul declared to unbelievers that, 'Christ died for our sins.'

And, hence, Christ died for all men. 1 John 2:2.
After all, this is the good news.

As noted, one or two verses does not a gospel make, especially when such a conclusion as yours is the result. :AMR:

AMR

 

[Sonnet]

As noted, one or two verses does not a gospel make, especially when such a conclusion as yours is the result. :AMR:

AMR

According to Paul, it's the Gospel.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

According to Paul, it's the Gospel.

A post a few minutes following my own tells me you took no time to digest linked content and dig a wee bit deeper. Yours is but "mere Christianity", much akin to the superficiality that surrounds the church today in our thirty minutes or its free society seeking quick answers to weighty matters.

Odd that the writer of most of the NT wasted so many words on this few sentence "gospel" that you are flirting with. Even more odd that folks like Peter found Paul to be a deep read. Glad you have it all figured out. Too bad you were not around to explain things to Peter at the time. :AMR:

Dig deeper:
http://www.apuritansmind.com/the-ch...stance-of-the-gospel-by-dr-c-matthew-mcmahon/

AMR

 

[Sonnet]

A post a few minutes following my own tells me you took no time to digest linked content and dig a wee bit deeper. Yours is but "mere Christianity", much akin to the superficiality that surrounds the church today in our thirty minutes or its free society seeking quick answers to weighty matters.

AMR

I did not know they were links. I'm not here for quick answers AMR and do not want this to degenerate into ad hominems.

 

[Sonnet]

A post a few minutes following my own tells me you took no time to digest linked content and dig a wee bit deeper. Yours is but "mere Christianity", much akin to the superficiality that surrounds the church today in our thirty minutes or its free society seeking quick answers to weighty matters.

Odd that the writer of most of the NT wasted so many words on this few sentence "gospel" that you are flirting with. Even more odd that folks like Peter found Paul to be a deep read. Glad you have it all figured out. Too bad you were not around to explain things to Peter at the time. :AMR:

Dig deeper:
http://www.apuritansmind.com/the-ch...stance-of-the-gospel-by-dr-c-matthew-mcmahon/

AMR

You still maintain that 1 Cor 15:3-4 does not constitute the Gospel even though Paul explicitly says it is?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I did not know they were links. I'm not here for quick answers AMR and do not want this to degenerate into ad hominems.

When reading a post, embedded links clearly show up as blue colored text. Like this. <--that is an embedded link

This is not an embedded link:
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/limitedatonement.html

See the difference?

Just another point you are making for me concerning how superficially you are approaching serious matters.

AMR

 

[Sonnet]

When reading a post, embedded links clearly show up as blue colored text. Like this. <--that is an embedded link

This is not an embedded link:
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/limitedatonement.html

See the difference?

Just another point you are making for me concerning how superficially you are approaching serious matters.

AMR

Superficially? Not at all. You have not shown that to be the case.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

You still maintain that 1 Cor 15:3-4 does not constitute the Gospel even though Paul explicitly says it is?

Many years ago, I spent three days at a church during a special event on evangelism. I preached about six total hours, held numerous meetings, formal and informal. Later after returning home, I corresponded with the Pastor of that church. In my letter I reminded him of my message delivered over those three days. Now do you suppose I recreated all those sermons and meetings in my letter or do you suppose I simply provided a snapshot of what I was communicating (which was, in brief, we get so close to the physical Jesus we forget about the spiritual Jesus).

In other words, my brief summary of "the message" is in no way THE message. I am quite sure the Pastor understood what I was saying in that he was actually present for all those sermons and meetings (just as would the saints at Corinth looking back at what Paul was summarizing in a few sentences).

You need to carefully think about these things. As it is, your view is only embarrassing yourself.

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Superficially? Not at all. You have not shown that to be the case.

Your purposeful lack of interaction with the actual content provided says differently.

AMR

 

[Sonnet]

Many years ago, I spent three days at a church during a special event on evangelism. I preached about six total hours, held numerous meetings, formal and informal. Later after returning home, I corresponded with the Pastor of that church. In my letter I reminded him of my message delivered over those three days. Now do you suppose I recreated all those sermons and meetings in my letter or do you suppose I simply provided a snapshot of what I was communicating (which was, in brief, we get so close to the physical Jesus we forget about the spiritual Jesus).

In other words, my brief summary of "the message" is in no way THE message. I am quite sure the Pastor understood what I was saying in that he was actually present for all those sermons and meetings (just as would the saints at Corinth looking back at what Paul was summarizing in a few sentences).

You need to carefully think about these things. As it is, your view is only embarrassing yourself.

AMR

Certainly Paul would have expounded on the subject in addition to vv.3-8. I have no idea how that helps you.

The fact is, is that Paul describes it as the Gospel. He does so because it is the essence of what Christ did for us on the cross and in his resurrection.

 

[Sonnet]

Your purposeful lack of interaction with the actual content provided says differently.

AMR

Please present an argument that actually refutes the OP rather than huge documents on limited atonement. I have read plenty of material on the subject before .

I read the article you sent on Pelagianism but you never asked anything further on it.

 

[Sonnet]

Dig deeper:
http://www.apuritansmind.com/the-ch...stance-of-the-gospel-by-dr-c-matthew-mcmahon/

AMR

You want a response to this?

 

[Nang]

Sonnet,

Do you believe that Jesus Christ performed the offices of Prophet, Priest, & King?

 

[Sonnet]

Sonnet,

Do you believe that Jesus Christ performed the offices of Prophet, Priest, & King?

Yes - though since he was rejected he was never made king. We will have to wait for next time.