Reformed Theology: Somewhere Between..

[Clete]

Unjust is a coverup invented by unregenrates. The unregerates knows God don't exist. The elects knows God is the judge. God didnt create hell for nothing.

This is no response!

Justice is no cover up TB! If God is not just, He isn't righteous. If He isn't righteous then the bible is a fraud and this whole discussion is moot!

In other words, it isn't just your doctrine that stands or falls on the principle of justice, the entire Judeo-Christian worldview stands for falls on it.

And if you assertion is true, that we have no ability to choose, God, by HIS OWN STANDARD, is unjust.

Did you catch that TB? By His own standard! Not my standard! No one asked me about what righteousness should look like nor have I made any attempt to make any argument based on anything other than the principle of morality presented in God's own inspired word.

So which is it? Do we have the ability to choose, or is the Hell that God made unjust?


Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Crucible]

Notice what it is that Crucible is loyal too here in his pseudo argument. He isn't arguing on the basis of truth (i.e. on reality) but on the basis of his doctrine.

What free will believers, Open Theists in particular, argue for is a theology that is consistent with reality. In other words, we begin with the notion that what is true is true, what's real is real, A is A. We then begin a process by which we attempt to figure out what A is.

Crucible, and most all Augustinian theists so far as I can tell, do the opposite. They begin with their doctrine! In the case of Augustinian theology they begin with the absolute immutability of God. That is the starting point, their foundational PRESUPPOSITION! It never occurs to them that their doctrine of immutability might not have any relationship to reality because they've built their reality on that foundation and will automatically reject, that is they will reject without need for argument, any idea that threatens the notion that God is utterly unchangeable.


Circular reasoning and self-contradictory nonsense.

What we do is what makes us wicked. So says GOD - not me.

And

According to your own doctrine we neither have any choice in what we do nor in what we are "intrinsically". According to you, God decided all that before we ever existed. Thus, by God's own standard, if we are punished for what God made us to be, He is unjust.


Saying it doesn't make it so. See above.

If this were so, there would be no need for the term 'antinomy', which Calvinists all over the world use as the catch all trump card for all their internal inconsistencies.


Again, saying it doesn't make it so.

Crucible has figured out that he cannot win a debate and so has resorted to ignoring arguments. Instead, he makes bald assertions and attempts to win on an emotional level by acting as though those who disagree with him are mad men with splinters in their minds.

If anything, it is quite the reverse. It is the Calvinists who cannot use their mind. It is the Calvinist who has knowingly and willfully discarded sound reason and who has as a result debased their own mind. The Calvinist (and other Augustinian theologies) that are forced to redefine common words in order for their doctrine to even get past the most rudimentary common sense objections. And the difference between me making that claim and Crucible making a similar claim is that this thread exists as do countless other threads throughout this website some of which are decades old and all still there for anyone to read. Hundreds of thousands of pages of Calvinists getting their hats handed to them over and over and over again.


Resting in Him,
Clete

The very moment you all insulted and bashed Augustine and his works is where I put up the hatchet. I don't need to waste my time with that nonsense.

VS

:think:

 

[TulipBee]

This is no response!

Justice is no cover up TB! If God is not just, He isn't righteous. If He isn't righteous then the bible is a fraud and this whole discussion is moot!

In other words, it isn't just your doctrine that stands or falls on the principle of justice, the entire Judeo-Christian worldview stands for falls on it.

And if you assertion is true, that we have no ability to choose, God, by HIS OWN STANDARD, is unjust.

Did you catch that TB? By His own standard! Not my standard! No one asked me about what righteousness should look like nor have I made any attempt to make any argument based on anything other than the principle of morality presented in God's own inspired word.

So which is it? Do we have the ability to choose, or is the Hell that God made unjust?


Resting in Him,
Clete

Let God be the judge

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

How is man going to choose what they can't see nor hear? It is man who: - is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9).- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23).- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19).- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12).- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6).- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1).- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3).- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14).- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

You describe the state of all men.

What did and does God do?

Love us.
Make us.
Have mercy on us.
Bring His light to us.
Bring His word to us.
Bring His Son to us.
Sacrafice His Son for us.
Love us.
Convict us of the truth by His Spirit.
Tell us of His love for us by His Spirit.
Shine His light in the darkness, our darkness.


What do we do?
Say yes.

 

[TulipBee]

You describe the state of all men.

What did and does God do?

Love us.
Make us.
Have mercy on us.
Bring His light to us.
Bring His word to us.
Bring His Son to us.
Sacrafice His Son for us.
Love us.
Convict us of the truth by His Spirit.
Tell us of His love for us by His Spirit.
Shine His light in the darkness, our darkness.


What do we do?
Say yes.

The chosen say yes after regeneration. Faith precedes regeneration is false theology.

 

[Clete]

Let God be the judge

That's fine, but know this. You have, by this statement, declared that righteousness is not a function of one's actions.

I'll be very interested in hearing your explanation of that when you sit before the Righteous Judge of all the universe.

 

[TulipBee]

That's fine, but know this. You have, by this statement, declared that righteousness is not a function of one's actions.

I'll be very interested in hearing your explanation of that when you sit before the Righteous Judge of all the universe.

I'll drop down on my face like Moses did

 

[Clete]

The very moment you all insulted and bashed Augustine and his works is where I put up the hatchet. I don't need to waste my time with that nonsense.

VS

:think:

Another excellent example of a non-response with a dash of hypocrisy thrown in for good measure, acting injured by a perceived insult and responding with an insult of his own.

Typical really.

 

[Crucible]

That's fine, but know this. You have, by this statement, declared that righteousness is not a function of one's actions.

I'll be very interested in hearing your explanation of that when you sit before the Righteous Judge of all the universe.

Arminianism- God is man's instrument
Calvinism- man is God's instrument

The whole Bible is against your ideology. You resort to this petty 'God is unjust if a person is predestined to destruction'.

But
God is the only reason you reap salvation

So
Your 'free will' just sucks, plain and simple. It was only ever secured in the first place to justify control. It breeds nothing but Hell wishing- that is why a Calvinist simply states 'you must be predestined' to your 'go to Hell, heathen, etc.' :chuckle:

 

[Clete]

Arminianism- God is man's instrument
Calvinism- man is God's instrument

I am NOT an Arminian!

The whole Bible is against your ideology.

Saying it doesn't make it so, Crucible!

Here watch...

The whole bible is against every syllable of Calvinism!

See?! Doesn't prove a thing!

You resort to this petty 'God is unjust if a person is predestined to destruction'.

I've not resorted to anything other than a rational argument that not one single Calvinist has ever even tried to refute in my presence.

They don't refute it because they AGREE with it! I can't tell you the number of Calvinists who have just come right out and stated bluntly that "our understanding of justice" does not apply to God. They state without qualification and without apology that "Of course God is arbitrary, He's God!".

But
God is the only reason you reap salvation

So
Your 'free will' just sucks, plain and simple. It was only ever secured in the first place to justify control. It breeds nothing but Hell wishing- that is why a Calvinist simply states 'you must be predestined' to your 'go to Hell, heathen, etc.' :chuckle:

We'll see who laughs when God holds you accountable for your words.

I'm going to love it when Calvinists get to respond when God says, "So, arbitrary am I? How are you feeling about that statement right now?"

That brings to mind another question...

Just how is it that Calvinists feel so secured by their doctrine? They are all the time talking about how the God of free will theism (and Open Theism in particular) offers no security at all but that their God is an unchanging unmovable rock! But your unchanging stone god is arbitrary! In the Calvinist view, what ever God does is just, not because "justice" has a meaning that you can compare God's actions with but by the virtue of the fact that God did it. So, how can you know that you're even saved? How can you know that God hasn't arbitrarily chosen you to the the fool who thought he was saved but had really bought a lie, as you must believe that I am? How do you know that God won't simply toss you into Hell because He wants too?

If your god is not required to be consistent with his own word, how is it possible to trust it?

And that's really my whole argument here. God presents in His word a very clear understanding of what righteousness is and what justice looks like. The stone idol of Calvinism is not consistent with that understanding - at all! Accepting the bible as truth, Calvinism is therefore false.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Crucible]

I am NOT an Arminian!

Well isn't that great, a non-Catholic counter-Reformist telling me how it's all wicked and that 'Christianity' (Cleteism) is right.

Saying it doesn't make it so, Crucible!

Here watch...

The whole bible is against every syllable of Calvinism!

'Elect' and 'predestination' is mentioned countless times throughout the Bible. It is the entire spirit thereof.
You largely hinge on legal fictions of certain passages.

I've not resorted to anything other than a rational argument that not one single Calvinist has ever even tried to refute in my presence.

'Rational' and 'convenient fiction' are not synonymous. It's easy to refute convenient falsehoods- you just point them out.

We'll see who laughs when God holds you accountable for your words.

I'm going to love it when Calvinists get to respond when God says, "So, arbitrary am I? How are you feeling about that statement right now?"

See, there goes that Hell wishing

Don't worry, your punishment will simply be feeling like a supreme idiot.

Just how is it that Calvinists feel so secured by their doctrine? They are all the time talking about how the God of free will theism (and Open Theism in particular) offers no security at all but that their God is an unchanging unmovable rock! But your unchanging stone god is arbitrary! In the Calvinist view, what ever God does is just, not because "justice" has a meaning that you can compare God's actions with but by the virtue of the fact that God did it. So, how can you know that you're even saved? How can you know that God hasn't arbitrarily chosen you to the the fool who thought he was saved but had really bought a lie, as you must believe that I am? How do you know that God won't simply toss you into Hell because He wants too?

Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?


Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Calvinism reveals a true consistency with God, who is not changing according to your will. Calvinist doctrine is rigid because it secures the Gospel, which is rigid as well.

You all are the one's who want to make it all arbitrary. It's convenient, and serves to basically lie to other people to get them to conform.

That's a textbook 'doctrine of demons', and is responsible for every schism in history. You ultimately make 'free will' the dictation of all that is.

And that's really my whole argument here.

Well you failed, so there you go :wave:

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Well isn't that great, a non-Catholic counter-Reformist telling me how it's all wicked and that 'Christianity' (Cleteism) is right.



'Elect' and 'predestination' is mentioned countless times throughout the Bible. It is the entire spirit thereof.
You largely hinge on legal fictions of certain passages.



'Rational' and 'convenient fiction' are not synonymous. It's easy to refute convenient falsehoods- you just point them out.



See, there goes that Hell wishing

Don't worry, your punishment will simply be feeling like a supreme idiot.




Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?


Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Calvinism reveals a true consistency with God, who is not changing according to your will. Calvinist doctrine is rigid because it secures the Gospel, which is rigid as well.

You all are the one's who want to make it all arbitrary. It's convenient, and serves to basically lie to other people to get them to conform.

That's a textbook 'doctrine of demons', and is responsible for every schism in history. You ultimately make 'free will' the dictation of all that is.



Well you failed, so there you go :wave:

You're not very bright, are ya?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I am NOT an Arminian!


Saying it doesn't make it so, Crucible!

Here watch...

The whole bible is against every syllable of Calvinism!

See?! Doesn't prove a thing!


I've not resorted to anything other than a rational argument that not one single Calvinist has ever even tried to refute in my presence.

They don't refute it because they AGREE with it! I can't tell you the number of Calvinists who have just come right out and stated bluntly that "our understanding of justice" does not apply to God. They state without qualification and without apology that "Of course God is arbitrary, He's God!".


We'll see who laughs when God holds you accountable for your words.

I'm going to love it when Calvinists get to respond when God says, "So, arbitrary am I? How are you feeling about that statement right now?"

That brings to mind another question...

Just how is it that Calvinists feel so secured by their doctrine? They are all the time talking about how the God of free will theism (and Open Theism in particular) offers no security at all but that their God is an unchanging unmovable rock! But your unchanging stone god is arbitrary! In the Calvinist view, what ever God does is just, not because "justice" has a meaning that you can compare God's actions with but by the virtue of the fact that God did it. So, how can you know that you're even saved? How can you know that God hasn't arbitrarily chosen you to the the fool who thought he was saved but had really bought a lie, as you must believe that I am? How do you know that God won't simply toss you into Hell because He wants too?

If your god is not required to be consistent with his own word, how is it possible to trust it?

And that's really my whole argument here. God presents in His word a very clear understanding of what righteousness is and what justice looks like. The stone idol of Calvinism is not consistent with that understanding - at all! Accepting the bible as truth, Calvinism is therefore false.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Good post.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

The chosen say yes after regeneration. Faith precedes regeneration is false theology.

I'm afraid you're all mixed up.

 

[Crucible]

Whatever happened to the fun grievances of Calvinism, like the stereotype of Calvinists being alcoholics, or
Calvin drinking like a fish and Augustine being the Patron Saint of Brewers.

:chuckle:

But no, it's got to be a bunch of people who chooses a sad state of 'free will' being the salvific mechanism, condemning people to Hell for believing the 'insane' idea that God is God.

:liberals:

Accepting God and rejecting fate is mankind's biggest intellectual blunder.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Your 'free will' just sucks, plain and simple.

You sure have a set of brilliant writing skills, don't ya?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Whatever happened to the fun grievances of Calvinism, like the stereotype of Calvinists being alcoholics, or
Calvin drinking like a fish and Augustine being the Patron Saint of brewers.

:chuckle:

But no, it's got to be a bunch of people who chooses a sad state of 'free will' being the salvific mechanism, condemning people to Hell for believing the 'insane' idea that God is God.

:liberals:

Accepting God and rejecting fate is mankind's biggest intellectual blunder.

I see you're one of those, angry Calvinists. Arrogant and
angry. The true Calvinist.

 

[Clete]

Well isn't that great, a non-Catholic counter-Reformist telling me how it's all wicked and that 'Christianity' (Cleteism) is right.

I'm making an argument. You are being a jerk and presenting me with opportunity after opportunity to not simply state that Calvinism is a lie but to demonstrate it.

'Elect' and 'predestination' is mentioned countless times throughout the Bible. It is the entire spirit thereof.

Its not countless!

Elect - 28 times
Predestined - 4 times

Murder - 68 times
Hate - 172 times
drunk - 71 times

Would you attempt to argue on the same basis that murder, hatred and drunkenness is "the entire theme thereof"?

I think not!

For the record...

Justice - 136 times
Rightous(ness) - 555 times

You largely hinge on legal fictions of certain passages.

Really? Which fictions? Which passages?


He will NOT answer this question!

'Rational' and 'convenient fiction' are not synonymous.

You got that right! You got that EXACTLY right!

It's easy to refute convenient falsehoods- you just point them out.

This is Crucible attempting to make HIMSELF feel better about being too lazy or too stupid to make an actual argument. If what I've said was so easy to refute, he'd have done it and run victory laps for weeks off the high it gave him.

He's a liar, as are all Calvinists who know what the system teaches - all of them! They lie first to themselves and then, as our flesh is prone to do, attempt to drag as much company as possible into the misery that results from their attempt to fake reality.

See, there goes that Hell wishing

Don't worry, your punishment will simply be feeling like a supreme idiot.

If I'm such an idiot, show everyone! Prove that I'm the idiot you so desperately need me to be!

Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?


Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Your proof texting is useless! The whole point is that, according to you, God does not have to act in a manner consistent with his own standards of justice! If he doesn't have to act in a manner consistent with part of scripture, by what argument are you going to convince anyone that he must be consistent with any of it?

Calvinism reveals a true consistency with God, who is not changing according to your will. Calvinist doctrine is rigid because it secures the Gospel, which is rigid as well.

Secures it on what?

God's ARBITRARY nature?

Admit it, that's what you believe!

You all are the one's who want to make it all arbitrary. It's convenient, and serves to basically lie to other people to get them to conform.

OOPS! You screwed up here Crucible.

“God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)

“… predestination to glory is the cause of predestination to grace, rather than the converse.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 9)

“Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christia/n Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

“We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)

“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)

"...the words arbitrary and justice are not opposites. They are family, and well-nigh synonymous." - James Hilston (Calvinist extraordinaire)
​

That's a textbook 'doctrine of demons', and is responsible for every schism in history. You ultimately make 'free will' the dictation of all that is.

Are you suggesting that God did not predestine every schism in history?

Well you failed, so there you go :wave:

Saying it doesn't make it so, Crucible!

The argument is there for all to read and your lack of response to it is there for them to notice.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Crucible]

I'm making an argument. You are being a jerk and presenting me with opportunity after opportunity to not simply state that Calvinism is a lie but to demonstrate it.


Its not countless!

Elect - 28 times
Predestined - 4 times

Murder - 68 times
Hate - 172 times
drunk - 71 times

Would you attempt to argue on the same basis that murder, hatred and drunkenness is "the entire theme thereof"?

What you just stated proves that you're just desperate. Seriously, I don't even have to reply to that LOL

Really? Which fictions? Which passages?


He will NOT answer this question!

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.

Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

These are just some of the excerpts from all over the Bible, from Exodus to Revelation that brim with Calvinism.

What do you have against the whole spirit of the Bible, besides legal fictions from certain passages?

OOPS! You screwed up here Crucible.

“God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)

“… predestination to glory is the cause of predestination to grace, rather than the converse.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 9)

“Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christia/n Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

“We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)

“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)

"...the words arbitrary and justice are not opposites. They are family, and well-nigh synonymous." - James Hilston (Calvinist extraordinaire)
​

And just like the Bible, there you go treating Calvin just the same, conflicting the teachings :rotfl:

Saying it doesn't make it so, Crucible!

The only people I've ever heard use that repeated statement are anti-theists.

Go figure.

 

[Derf]

Please be respectful and do not disrespect anyone(no matter their comments)


So, about a year ago a good friend of mine introduced reformed theology to me. My first thought was,"ummm what?", but as he explainned the thought behind it, the more I could see some agreement I have always had. I do no not hold to all five points of Calvinism. The truth is im torn between.

Any thoughts on reformed theology?

I'm not sure your plea to be respectful has had much effect, but thanks for trying.

I've been an attender, then member, of a reformed church for about 14 years. I disagree with some of their doctrine, specifically the limited atonement part, which is really like saying I disagree with TULIP as a whole, if you think about it. But I feel like while their orthodoxy is misguided, their orthopraxy is quite good. They hold to the Westminster Confession, which is also quite a good confession on the whole, except for a few things that don't seem to follow the bible, but rather follow the Calvinistic system of theology. Keep in mind, I'm not an expert on Calvinism, but I've sat under its teachings for 14 years.

From what I've observed, Calvinism emphasizes some parts of scripture over others--which is really the same thing everyone else does, too. I think AMR's thread link pointed this out about Bob Enyart's NOAH hermeneutic, which hermeneutic was an attempt to focus on a different part of scripture over others.

My conclusion after 14 years: our understanding of God's salvation is no more effective in saving us than our own righteousness is. And no matter what, the only thing that saves us is belief in Jesus Christ's real, physical death as the propitiation for our sins, and in his real, physical resurrection as the evidence of that salvation. After that, everyone will know we are Christians by our love, for God and for one another ("neighbor"). And if that doesn't show through, Jesus will say to us, "I never knew you".

Calvinism can't save you, just like Paulism or Apollosism or Cephasism can't save you. Was anyone baptized into Calvinism? Or Arminianism? Or Open Theism? If so, their hope is in vain. Even claiming the name of Christ is not sufficient. But calling on His name is, if done truthfully.

And I pray that these "debates" will result in all of us trying to find the right understanding of God's word, rather than just trying to convince others of our own dim understanding of it.