Rebuttal of the dreadful doctrine of reprobation

[Ask Mr. Religion]

A gospel that God has limited in scope to a select few ...

An great multitude no man can number. Only the anti-Calvinist would assume Rev. 7:9 and other related Scripture means this is a select few. Such is the interpretative discernment of some folks.

AMR

 

[Sonnet]

Deut. 30:11 is a favorite of those claiming free will, in the libertarian sense, is being taught in the verse and what follows, arguing that Moses here declares the precepts of the Law not to be above our reach.

Surely, the very point Paul makes at the beginning of Romans 10 is the assertion that the law is above our reach - so it can hardly be the case that Deut. 30 is affirming the opposite. Indeed, Paul is reproving his kinsmen for thinking they might do so alone.

This is a classic error of reading presuppositions into the text. Does Moses state that the keeping of the precepts of the law is within the compass of our strength? No. The words convey nothing of the sort; neither can this sense be elicited from them, if his intention be duly weighed.

Moses merely encourages the Jews, and commands them to be diligent disciples of the Law, because they will easily understand whatever is enjoined by God therein. But the power of performance is a very different thing from understanding. Further, Paul, with very good reason, accommodates this passage to the Gospel, (Romans 10:8) because it would profit nothing to comprehend the doctrine itself in the mind, unless reverence and a serious disposition to obey be superadded. Paul takes it for granted, that to have a good will is so far from being in our own power, that we are not even competent to think correctly. It therefore follows, that what is here stated by Paul falls to the ground as frivolous, and spoken to no purpose, if it be applied simply to the Law.

But we know Romans 4:1ff don't we?

Paul also considers another thing; that because the Law requires a perfect righteousness, it cannot be received by any man fruitfully; for however any man may study to obey God, yet he will still be far from perfection; and, therefore, it is necessary to come to the Gospel, wherein that rigorous requirement is relaxed, because, through the interposition of pardon, the will to obey is pleasing to God instead of perfect obedience. For Paul insists in the later verse, "The word is nigh in the mouth, and in the heart, that the people may do it."

Indeed - the very argument Paul is making in Romans 10. You seem to have forgotten that you put the very Gospel itself beyond some men's reach.

It is clear from Scripture that men's hearts are strongly and obstinately opposed to the Law; and that in the Law itself is contained only a dead and deadly letter; how then could the literal doctrine have a place in the heart? Yet if God, by the Spirit of regeneration, corrects the depravity of the heart and softens its hardness, this is not the property of the Law, but of the Gospel.

You accept that the Holy Spirit comes and acts on all men but for some reason you've decided that isn't enough.

Because in the children of God, even after they are regenerated, there will always abide the remainders of carnal desires, no person will be found who can perform the Law. But in the Gospel God receives, with fatherly indulgence, what is not absolutely perfect. Therefore the word of God does not begin to penetrate into the heart, and to produce its proper fruit in the lips, until Christ shines upon us with His Spirit and gratuitous pardon. Accordingly, Paul most rightly concludes that this is the word of faith which is preached in the Gospel; both because the Law does not efficaciously lead men to God, and because the keeping of it is impossible, on account of its extreme rigor. Yet this is the peculiar blessing of the new covenant, that the Law is written on men's hearts, and engraved on their inward parts; while that severe requirement of perfect obedience is relaxed, so that the vices under which believers still labor are no fatal obstacle to their partial and imperfect obedience being pleasant to God.

Ok.

In the passage from Deuteronomy in question, Moses provides a solemn injunction, similar to the foregoing ones, that the Israelites should consider how inestimable a blessing it was that God should have condescended to deposit His Law with them; and that if they did not receive it with reverence, the punishments for such foul ingratitude would be by no means light. For, in order to deprive them of the pretext of error, He separates them from the heathen nations, which through ignorance of the right way vacillated, as in uncertainty, between life and death. The passage is about Israel's special calling out to keep that which was deposited with them. The passage is not about libertarian free will.

I'm not following this.

 

[Sonnet]

See:
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?118289-Rebuttal-of-the-dreadful-doctrine-of-reprobation&p=4760969&viewfull=1#post4760969

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?118289-Rebuttal-of-the-dreadful-doctrine-of-reprobation&p=4760984&viewfull=1#post4760984

How is this a response to:

Regarding Romans 8:28-30 - the predestination is in being conformed to the image of Christ - just as Paul says in Ephesians 1:4-5 ('adoption to sonship'). It's those 'foreknown' (different word to predestined - and we know Paul wouldn't engage in tautology) that are predestined to such conforming. Those predestined, called, justified and glorified are those foreknown.

Nothing precludes inferring that those foreknown are those God has always known (outside of time of course) would exercise faith.

Romans 11:7 - would be a reference to those reserved in v.4 and it explicitly states that they would not bow the knee to Baal.

Eph. 1:10-11 - the predestination is stated in v.5 - adoption to sonship, and it's 'us in him' who are thus predestined.

2 Thess. 2:13-14 - 'saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.'

2 Cor. 3:3,6 - not sure why you have cited these scriptures.

?

 

[Sonnet]

Acts 26:18, 1 Cor. 2:10,12, and Eph. 1:17-18 speak to the enlightening of the minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God by those regenerated. See exposition of the section of the WCF that I have quoted to which you are responding here.

Acts 26:15-18

“Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’

“ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

I have no idea why you are quoting this scripture. Jesus is sending Paul as a witness that they may receive forgiveness. So what of it?

1 Cor. 2:10,12, and Eph. 1:17-18 both refer to believers.

 

[Sonnet]

Try not to confuse prophecy (Ezekiel) with history (Deuteronomy). You cannot grab up verses here and there and cobble them together to make an argument unless you have considered the genres and contexts. And why run all the way to the NIV for Eze. 36:37? Again this is not related to libertarian free will at all. It is about a called out people in the prophecy of Ezekiel: the Israel of God.

I have no idea what you are saying here.

 

[Sonnet]

The effectual drawing of the saints to Jesus Christ is done by the power of God alone, said power the very reason that the saints will believe. As in John 6:44-45, those that believe have had their minds opened to know, assent, and trust; learned from that power. Again see exposition of the section of the WCF that I have quoted to which you are responding here.

Your response to:

Eph. 1:19 - why have you cited this?

Ephesians 1:19 is about believers, as I previously noted.

No idea why you are quoting John 6:44-45.

Please make a specific point regarding http://www.reformed.org/documents/shaw/shaw_10.html.

 

[Sonnet]

We do. When we are called. Those so called come of their own liberty of spontaneity, their free will. Those not called will never come, for their freedom is but freedom to sin more or sin less.

You are redefining free will.

 

[Sonnet]

Note:
Matthew 13:12 "...but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath."

Indeed it frequently happens that the reprobate (Judas) are endued with eminent gifts, even gifts granted by God for His own purposes, and appear to resemble the children of God: but there is nothing of real value about them; for their mind is destitute of piety, and has only the glitter of an empty show. Matthew is therefore justified in saying that they have nothing; for what they have is of no value in the sight of God, and has no permanency within. All who have been given over to a reprobate mind (Romans 1:28) do voluntarily, and from inward malice, blind and harden themselves. All whom God does not enlighten with the Spirit of adoption are men of unsound mind; and that, while they are more and more blinded by the word of God, the blame rests wholly on themselves, because this blindness is voluntary

In Matthew 13:16 Our Lord does not mean any kind of hearing, or the mere beholding of the flesh, but pronounces their eyes to be blessed, because they perceive in Him a glory which is worthy of the only-begotten Son of God, so as to acknowledge Him as the Redeemer. They perceive shining in Him the lively image of God, by which they obtain salvation and perfect happiness and because in them is fulfilled what had been spoken by the Prophets, that those who have been truly and perfectly taught by the Lord (Isaiah 54:13) do not need to learn every man from his neighbor (Jeremiah 31:34).

That the passage relates to the parable of the sower is instructive here, for Judas, if he was present, would be spoken about in the parable (all the outward trappings of faith that never takes root).

Your fundamental issue is that you assume whatever our Lord commands in Scripture necessarily implies man possesses the power to do of his own accord. Ought does not imply can. See here.

What do you mean IF (Judas) was present? Are you saying he wasn't? Please respond before I deal with this post. Thanks.

 

[Sonnet]

The proof is in God's own words: Romans 11:35 (see Job 41:11, all of Job for that matter). If before creation God is merely peeking down the corridors of time to see who will choose wisely and then rubber-stamping their decision, declaring them "elected" from their own choice, then God is contingent upon His creation. In effect these persons have elected themselves to eternal life.

Finite creatures should never try to put the infinite God into a place where He is required to make a fair requital. That is an attempt to put what is infinite on equal footing with what is finite. God does not have to "settle up" with any man.

AMR

This is a straw man. I never suggested that God peeks in such a way for we know that God knows all outside of time.

 

[Sonnet]

Our Lord did not come and die for each and every person.

Zero scriptures say that.

1 John 2:2 etc say the opposite.

While His atonement was certainly sufficient for all,

Interesting but baffling use of 'sufficient'.

it was purposed for only those given to Him by God the Father.

No scriptures say this.

So, yes, there is a remedy for original sin and all sin for anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord.

You mean you think there is a remedy for the original sin of some humans.

 

[Sonnet]

An great multitude no man can number. Only the anti-Calvinist would assume Rev. 7:9 and other related Scripture means this is a select few. Such is the interpretative discernment of some folks.

AMR

Whether it's one or the total number of humans - 1 it's unconscionable.

That should be obvious shouldn't it?

 

[intojoy]

Hmmmm, this would mean that the Spiritual calling of a person is all on God, and it implies that the Spirit can make whoever He chooses into a believer.

Is that a fair understanding?


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Damn right!


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[Cross Reference]

The passage cannot carry the freight of non-eternal security you are attempting to import into it.

Nonsense. You need to believe that of me.

You can't explain the, "why" of any of that if you believe God decrees everything and your only concern is purely for yourself.

 

[Sonnet]

A gospel that God has limited in scope to a select few - wholly inaccessible to the rest - is a different gospel from one that says whosoever will believe can be saved, limited only by their own choice of unbelief. These are two contradictory gospels. There's no way around that fact and no point in refusing to acknowledge it.

So right.

 

[Cross Reference]

 OriginallyPosted by Ask Mr. Religion 

The effectual drawing of the saints to Jesus Christ is done by the power of God alone, said power the very reason that the saints will believe. As in John 6:44-45, those that believe have had their minds opened to know, assent, and trust; learned from that power. Again see exposition of the section of the WCF that I have quoted to which you are responding here.

The effectual drawing of the “saints” to Jesus Christ is not by the power of God but the love of God shed abroad in their hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto them. Rom 5:5 KJV.


 Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion 

The proof is in God's own words: Romans 11:35 (see Job 41:11, all of Job for that matter). If before creation God is merely peeking down the corridors of time to see who will choose wisely and then rubber-stamping their decision, declaring them "elected" from their own choice, then God is contingent upon His creation. In effect these persons have elected themselves to eternal life.

Try understanding this to see your error: “But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of God. 1 Corinthians 2:9-10 (KJV)

Finite creatures should never try to put the infinite God into a place where He is required to make a fair requital.

If God loves those who love Him why would you say His choosing would ever be other than requital? You read the scripture above. Where does it read God’s love is unrequited love when dealing with humans in that passage? If true then all mankind would be saved and rewards given out in that day would all be equal.. Does not God predestinate only those He foreknows who do love Him? By your words: man has free agency. Take that away from him and he is no longer capable of love; no longer able to forsake; put off unrighteousness or put on righteousness. Is it not God who “searches the hearts” of men? Is it not God who looked down to see if anyone was righteous before, as you declare no one could have been; anyone who was doing good? Why did God need Agag and all he possessed to be destroyed if God’s love is unrequited love?

That is an attempt to put what is infinite on equal footing with what is finite. God does not have to "settle up" with any man.. . AMR

That is but a cheap shot at building a strawman as a distraction. . . . not worthy of a reply and you know it.

 

[musterion]

So right.

People have been saying you describe yourself as agnostic or something similar. True? Why are they saying that?

 

[musterion]

An great multitude no man can number.

AMR

This isn't about how many of the elect will be saved. :AMR: However many that would be (from your PoV) it's still a presumed minority of all those who ever hear the Gospel of grace. Most, it is presumed, who hear it will not (cannot?) believe it and so will not be saved. I don't need to tell you that I've seen Calvinists say that. And they're correct in the sense that election posits reprobation...can't have one without the other. Else ALL are salvationally "elect" in the TULIP sense, making universalism true. But neither of us believes that.

 

[Cross Reference]

"My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you",
Galatians 4:19 (KJV)

Who of the Calvinist camp can explain why Paul would be in such pain if election is as they say it is?

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Yes, only if you change "it" to "He" when referring to the Holy Spirit. Let's not make God the Holy Spirit an "it", please.

AMR

I indeed changed my post to He.

According to Jesus, what is the most important commandment?


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[God's Truth]

Our Lord did not come and die for each and every person. While His atonement was certainly sufficient for all, it was purposed for only those given to Him by God the Father. So, yes, there is a remedy for original sin and all sin for anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord. I am still not getting what you are trying to say here.

AMR

Jesus died for all men, all men have a chance to be saved, if they believe.

In this next passage, read how many times Jesus says "whoever."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's only begotten Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

Read this next scripture, Jesus says "Whoever."

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.

How can they reject Jesus if they are as Calvinists say "incapable" of believing Jesus?

“Whoever” is whoever. This is plain and simple. Calvinists use special exegesis to twist the scriptures. Whomever in the world believes turns into whomever in the world of believers who believe.

Read this next scripture.

1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.


Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. This scripture shows that Jesus saves any who come to him in belief; it is a choice of all men, if they only would not love darkness instead of the light.

God wants all men saved. Read how many times scripture says "all men.”

John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 Timothy2:3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

1 Timothy 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

That scripture right there should stop any one from ever misunderstanding and believing Calvinism ever again. How much plainer language does it have to be? "Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.” All men have the chance to obey and believe.


You see in Acts 17:27 God wants men to seek him, and that God is not far from "each one of us." In addition, see in Acts 17:30 God commands "all people everywhere" to repent. Remember, Calvinists say not all men. Clearly, Calvinists beliefs are different from what God says. See also in 31, God has given proof to "all men."

It is about 'whoever,' and 'all men', and 'each one of us', and 'all people everywhere', and the 'whole world'.