Rebuttal of the dreadful doctrine of reprobation

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Cross Reference said:
'nough! Redemption is NOT about salvation. It is about redemption.
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One needs to have a clear understanding of words being used.

The traditional view of the word salvation means the full orbed plan, the Golden Chain, of redemption: foreknowledge, predestination, calling, regeneration, faith, repentance, justification, union to Christ, adoption, sanctification, and glorification.

foreknowledge - God's love of His chosen (the elect) before time (Eph. 1:11).
predestination - God's sovereign eternal decree as relates to the elect and the reprobate (Eph. 1:3-14).
calling - God's ordinary means, the hearing of the Scripture, the outward call, that effectuates the inward call of the elect (Eph. 2:1-3).
regeneration - the quickening of the "dead men walking" to life: new genesis, the beginning of a new life in a radically renewed person (1 Peter 1:23).
faith - the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen - a vital and personal trust in Christ as Savior and Lord (Rom. 10:5-13).
repentance - the radical turning from sin to Christ, the fruit of regeneration (2 Cor. 7:8-12).
justification - a forensic act of God declaring, counting, reckoning those "in Christ" righteous (Phil. 3:7-11).
union to Christ - the joining of the regenerated (quickened) radically new person with Christ by God. The union which the elect have with Christ is the work of God’s grace, whereby they are spiritually and mystically, yet really and inseparably, joined to Christ as their head and husband; which is done in their effectual calling. (Eph. 1:22; Eph. 2:6-8).
adoption - we are now related to Christ as branches of the True Vine, the children of God (John 15:1,5).
sanctification - our walk of faith towards greater destruction of the dominion of sin and the lusts thereof (Rom.6:6,14; Gal.5:24; Rom.8:13).
glorification - as we will be after the Lord's Second Coming (1 Cor. 15:53).

AMR
 
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Cross Reference said:
As I wrote of you earlier: You are all about Calvin, not Jesus.

Perservance of the saints, you say?:

"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" 1 Peter 4:17-18 (KJV)

Why would Peter have to say that?
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The passage cannot carry the freight of non-eternal security you are attempting to import into it.

The writer is making a connection between our suffering and God’s judgment. To this point in 1 Peter our suffering has always been at the hands of ungodly people. Yet here it appears to be the result of our own ungodly behavior. At times, then, our suffering comes to us because we deserve it. So God disciplines us. The text says that he begins with us. God will prune us like a tree that he desires to bear fruit.

If God is putting you through a season of suffering in connection with his concern for his glory, God has a desire for abundance in your future. And if you are still discouraged by this, take note of what Peter says about unbelievers and sinners. If sitting under God’s judgment is difficult for us now, what will it be like for them when he stands before them at his return? Trust God. He knows what is best for you. Like Spurgeon, learn to say, “I have learned to kiss the wave that strikes me against the Rock of Ages.”

Important is the next verse, 1 Peter 4:19, wherein Peter now comes to the one verse in his letter that most succinctly summarizes his theme. Therefore let those who suffer according to God’s will entrust their souls to a faithful Creator while doing good. Whether we are suffering for doing good or for sins we have committed, we are called upon to entrust our souls to God.

The Christian must not be surprised when hardship comes. We must not think it strange. Certainly we must not be ashamed. In contrast, we are to entrust ourselves to God’s eternal plan. And finally, we read that we are to do good to others all along the way (v. 19).

AMR

 
Nameless.In.Grace

Nameless.In.Grace

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Ask Mr. Religion said:
One needs to have a clear understanding of words being used.

The traditional view of the word salvation means the full orbed plan, the Golden Chain, of redemption: foreknowledge, predestination, calling, regeneration, faith, repentance, justification, union to Christ, adoption, sanctification, and glorification.

foreknowledge - God's love of His chosen (the elect) before time (Eph. 1:11).
predestination - God's sovereign eternal decree as relates to the elect and the reprobate (Eph. 1:3-14).
calling - God's ordinary means, the hearing of the Scripture, the outward call, that effectuates the inward call of the elect (Eph. 2:1-3).
regeneration - the quickening of the "dead men walking" to life: new genesis, the beginning of a new life in a radically renewed person (1 Peter 1:23).
faith - the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen - a vital and personal trust in Christ as Savior and Lord (Rom. 10:5-13).
repentance - the radical turning from sin to Christ, the fruit of regeneration (2 Cor. 7:8-12).
justification - a forensic act of God declaring, counting, reckoning those "in Christ" righteous (Phil. 3:7-11).
union to Christ - the joining of the regenerated (quickened) radically new person with Christ by God. The union which the elect have with Christ is the work of God’s grace, whereby they are spiritually and mystically, yet really and inseparably, joined to Christ as their head and husband; which is done in their effectual calling. (Eph. 1:22; Eph. 2:6-8).
adoption - we are now related to Christ as branches of the True Vine, the children of God (John 15:1,5).
sanctification - our walk of faith towards greater destruction of the dominion of sin and the lusts thereof (Rom.6:6,14; Gal.5:24; Rom.8:13).
glorification - as we will be after the Lord's Second Coming (1 Cor. 15:53).

AMR
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Foreknowledge is simply a tip of the hat to the Omnipotence of God.

Thus, the idea is infused with God's response to an individual's freewill choice to seek Him out and the growth of the fruits in an individual out of the regeneration of the Spirit.

Is this fair to say?




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CatholicCrusader said:
Reward and Merit
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Romanists. Always confusing merit. Sigh.

Read more.

For your review and careful study:

Condign merit is a situation where the action is in direct proportion to the reward, and where the action is of the kind necessary to obtain the reward. The example I use is very simple: when someone goes to purchase a car, and pays the full amount in cash, he has condignly merited the possession of the car by paying the money. In theology, there are two condign merit situations: Adam condignly merited Hell by his disobedience, and Jesus Christ condignly merited heaven for us by His obedience.

Congruent merit is similar to condign merit in that both condign and congruent merit have an action that matches in kind the reward. However, congruent merit is not sufficient in and of itself to merit the reward. Say a person has some money, but not enough money to purchase a car. Paying the money he has would not in and of itself merit possession of the car. However, if someone else chipped in and helped him, he would be able to own it. This is "merit with a little help." Romanists use this kind of merit in their system for good works meriting salvation (Christ providing the extra help), and we Reformed folk never do.

The last kind of merit is pactum merit, merit according to agreement, according to covenant. In this situation, the action does not correspond either in quality or quantity to the reward. A father promises his son that if the son gets a perfect score on his SAT exam, the father will buy him a car. Obviously, a son could not possibly go to a car store and turn in an SAT exam result and expect to walk out with a car. However, the father had bound himself to this agreement, and so if the son got said score, that would produce the car by means of the agreement. Most Reformed agree that had Adam obeyed in the Garden of Eden, he would have obtained eternal life on the basis of pactum merit. It does not correspond in quality to eternal life because Adam owed all his obedience already. It does not correspond in quantity either, since an infinite amount of righteousness would be required. However, God bound Himself, by agreement, to give Adam eternal life if Adam obeyed.

One will notice right away that there is a lack of symmetry between Adam's obedience and his disobedience. His disobedience condignly merits Hell. However, his obedience would only have merited Heaven by pact. However, the law of God requires condign merit of us now, a condition that only Christ can meet, since He did not owe obedience for Himself, and He offered up an infinitely efficacious merit on the cross.

AMR
 
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Nameless.In.Grace said:
Foreknowledge is simply a tip of the hat to the Omnipotence of God.

Thus, the idea is infused with God's response to an individual's freewill choice to seek Him out and the growth of the fruits in an individual out of the regeneration of the Spirit.

Is this fair to say?
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No it is not fair to say for it implies God awaits a response from the non-believer, whereas Scripture teaches us that the unbeliever will never seek God's righteousness for the unbeliever...

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- is not able to come to Jesus unless given to by God (Eph. 2:2);
- must be quickened by God (Eph. 2:4-5);
- cannot choose righteousness until regenerated (Titus 3:5);
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

How exactly does such a person possess any moral ability to choose wisely until God the Holy Spirit first quickens them (regenerates) such that they are now spiritually made alive (Eze. 36:26)?


AMR
 
Nameless.In.Grace

Nameless.In.Grace

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Rebuttal of the dreadful doctrine of reprobation

Ask Mr. Religion said:
No it is not fair to say for it implies God awaits a response from the non-believer, whereas Scripture teaches us that the unbeliever will never seek God's righteousness for the unbeliever...

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- is not able to come to Jesus unless given to by God (Eph. 2:2);
- must be quickened by God (Eph. 2:4-5);
- cannot choose righteousness until regenerated (Titus 3:5);
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

How exactly does such a person possess any moral ability to choose wisely until God the Holy Spirit first quickens them (regenerates) such that they are now spiritually made alive (Eze. 36:26)?


AMR
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Hmmmm, this would mean that the Spiritual calling of a person is all on God, and it implies that the Spirit can make whoever He chooses into a believer.

Is that a fair understanding?


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musterion

musterion

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Ask Mr. Religion said:
No it is not fair to say for it implies God awaits a response from the non-believer
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:think:

Yet God beseeches and implores (through Paul) that the lost be reconciled to Him.

Odd thing, that...the elect will be enabled to do so sooner or later, in God's timing and not one second sooner, and the nonelect will never be able to do so under any circumstance. Neither can WILL it to happen.

So the urging to be reconciled almost seems to be an appeal to free will choice.
 
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Ask Mr. Religion

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Nameless.In.Grace said:
Hmmmm, this would mean that the Spiritual calling of a person is all on God, and it implies that the Spirit can make whoever it chooses into a believer.

Is that a fair understanding?
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Yes, only if you change "it" to "He" when referring to the Holy Spirit. Let's not make God the Holy Spirit an "it", please.

AMR
 
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Grosnick Marowbe

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musterion said:
:think:

Yet God beseeches and implores (through Paul) that the lost be reconciled to Him.

Odd thing, that...the elect will be enabled to do so sooner or later, in God's timing and not one second sooner, and the nonelect will never be able to do so under any circumstance.

So the urging to be reconciled almost seems to be an appeal to free will choice.
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Calvinists see another god and another gospel in the Bible.
 
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Grosnick Marowbe

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Frankly, when I read and study God's written word, I don't see the Calvinist god, nor the Calvinist gospel. I wonder why? Well, I suppose I just see the "True" God and the "True" Gospel.
 
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musterion

musterion

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A gospel that God has limited in scope to a select few - wholly inaccessible to the rest - is a different gospel from one that says whosoever will believe can be saved, limited only by their own choice of unbelief. These are two contradictory gospels. There's no way around that fact and no point in refusing to acknowledge it.
 
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Grosnick Marowbe

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musterion said:
A gospel that God has limited in scope to a select few - wholly inaccessible to the rest - is a different gospel from one that says whosoever will believe can be saved, limited only by their own choice of unbelief. These are two contradictory gospels. There's no way around that fact and no point in refusing to acknowledge it.
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Yep. They both can't be true.
 
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