Real Science Friday: Baraminologist Dr. Roger Sanders on RSF

[TeeJay]

Barbarian,

I'm sure you did not do it intentionaly, but my original post was: "But realize that Genesis to you is an 'allegory.' But now Ezekiel must also be an allegory because it refers back to Genesis. So now you have an allegory that is allegorical to an allegory."

When you answered, you omitted the last sentence: "So now you have an allegory that is allegorical to an allegory." Would you care to comment? These allegories can get out of hand. For now Revelation is an allegory?

Now to your other concern that God must have lied to Adam and Eve because Adam did not die on the VERY DAY that he ate from the Tree of Knowledge. You don't realize your inconsistency. To prop up your millions of years, the days of creation in Genesis can't be literal days; they have to be allegories. But to prop up your new argument, a "day" must be a literal day, since Adam did not die physically on that day.

Question: If Adam and Eve had not eaten from the Tree of Knowledge and ate only from the Tree of Life, would they have died physically or spiritually? No. They would have lived forever. When they ate from the forbidden Tree, they died spiritually and later died physically. "All died in Adam," Paul wrote.

I question if you realize that all humans who have ever lived on Planet Earth will be resurrected to eternal life--"some to eternal damnation and some to eternal glory." Jesus promised this and Revelation says this also. All will live spiritually and physically just as Jesus Christ is presently. Thus far, no one has been resurrected. Jesus is the Resurrection. The first resurrection is after the Tribulation (described in Revelation) when all the saints that have gone through the Tribulation and have not denied Christ. Peter will be in this bunch because he went through a Tribulation described by Jesus before the Cross. And God promised the Twelve that they would rule with Him sitting on twelve thrones ruling over the twelve tribes of Israel. And "it's your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom," Jesus said referring to Israel.

And you find it hard to believe that Adam could have resisted the will of God by eating from the Tree of Life and "living forever" in his sinful state. Why? Men resist the will of God all the time. Every atheist on TOL has resisted the will of God. Love must be freely given. God gave us a will to either love Him or hate Him. If we did not have that choice, then love would be impossible.

Tom

 

[The Barbarian]

In Barbie's confused quasi-Catholic theology, heaven and hell are allegories. So is Jesus

Poor Sot. He actually thinks people here are dumb enough to believe that story.

Or possibly, he just got so upset again, he lost all sense of caution. Never lie about things that are still on the board, Sot.

 

[The Barbarian]

I'm sure you did not do it intentionaly, but my original post was: "But realize that Genesis to you is an 'allegory.' But now Ezekiel must also be an allegory because it refers back to Genesis. So now you have an allegory that is allegorical to an allegory."

If so, then Tom from Maybank is also an allegory, since you mentioned it, too. Did you not know that a book of the Bible can mention an allegory without itself being an allegory? If you're literally real, than Ezekiel can be real too, even if it mentions Genesis.

When you answered, you omitted the last sentence: "So now you have an allegory that is allegorical to an allegory." Would you care to comment? These allegories can get out of hand. For now Revelation is an allegory?

There is a great deal of allegorical material in the Book of Revelation.

Now to your other concern that God must have lied to Adam and Eve because Adam did not die on the VERY DAY that he ate from the Tree of Knowledge.

God said He would die the day he ate from the tree. Seems clear enough.

You don't realize your inconsistency. To prop up your millions of years, the days of creation in Genesis can't be literal days; they have to be allegories. But to prop up your new argument, a "day" must be a literal day, since Adam did not die physically on that day.

I'm pointing out that it can't be literal 24 hour days. But if you're right they are. But then God told Adam something that is untrue. Which is absurd. So you can't make it work your way, no matter how you turn it.

Question: If Adam and Eve had not eaten from the Tree of Knowledge and ate only from the Tree of Life, would they have died physically or spiritually? No. They would have lived forever. When they ate from the forbidden Tree, they died spiritually and later died physically.

But God said they would die that day. You're right about it being a spiritual, not a physical death, but they were never immortal. God even expresses a concern that they might become so.

 

[The Barbarian]

BTW, the transfer of thermal energy depends on the specific heat, which says how much thermal energy is required to heat a certain mass of a substance by one degree K or C.

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
Since water is essentially incompressible, then it wouldn't explode out of the Earth's crust without turning to steam. Certainly not at seven miles per second.

Right.

Yep.

(Stipe shows his knowledge of the physical properties of water)

Water is very compressible at high temperatures.

This graph is from the site you linked.

Notice the royal blue line is compressibility.

In fact you can use a thin-walled glass container filled with water to drive a nail into wood, if you are careful.
http://sciencedemonstrations.fas.ha...mize&view=view.do&viewParam_name=indepth.html
Surprise.

Barbarian asks Yorzhik:
We can calculate that. How much water do you think was so ejected?

Well, let's just see what the water that was ejected would do. How much water do you suppose was released from the crust?

Edit: Specific heat of water is 4186 joules/kg-C. Specific heat of air varies with temp, but is roughly 1000 Joules/kg-C.
Mass of the atmosphere is about 5×1018 kg.

Tell us about the water.

I don't know. I'll have to find out.

Once you do, we can get a minimum number for the heat transferred to the atmosphere.

 

[Stripe]

Notice the royal blue line is compressibility.

Barbarian loves to ignore half of what people say and use a distorted version to pretend he's smarter than them.

Notice the blue line only goes up to 100^oC, Barbarian. Notice I said, "At high temperatures". Why did you ignore that, Barbarian? Did you not know water can go well above 100^oC? Perhaps you should not post on topics with which you are not familiar. :think:

Barbarian, where was the water in Genesis 1:2?

Once you do, we can get a minimum number for the heat transferred to the atmosphere.

You've already found out.

 

[some other dude]

:mock: Barbie

 

[Stripe]

:mock: Barbie

The guy is completely laughable. :darwinsm:

:mock: The Barbarian.

 

[DavisBJ]

Water is very compressible at high temperatures. It escaped as liquid water.

I have spent a while trying to see where the article you link to supports your contention that water is very compressible at high temperatures. Would you please indicate specifically what paragraph, section, or statement in your article says such?

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian loves to ignore half of what people say and use a distorted version to pretend he's smarter than them.

It's your data, Stipe. And it shows you that liquid water is highly incompressible.

Harvard Natural Sciences Lecture Demonstrations:Fluid Statics
Incompressibility of Water
Water is so incompressible—one part in 5×107 decrease in volume for each atmosphere increase in pressure—that it is incredibly rigid if constrained within a solid skin.
http://sciencedemonstrations.fas.ha...mize&view=view.do&viewParam_name=indepth.html

Notice the blue line only goes up to 100oC, Barbarian.

Probably because water becomes a gas at 100 degrees C. :chuckle:

Notice I said, "At high temperatures". Why did you ignore that, Barbarian? Did you not know water can go well above 100oC?

You're thinking of 100 degees F, Stipe. Your data assumes an atmospheric pressure. And it's using SI units, not conventional units. Two of the many reasons you messed up on this one.

Perhaps you should not post on topics with which you are not familiar.

See above. This time, you suckered yourself, Stipe.

Barbarian, where was the water in Genesis 1:2?

For someone who's taking it as a literal history, some of the water was on Earth. And some of it was above a solid domed sky (the firmament), where the sun and stars were located.

For someone who realizes that it's an allegory the water was where it is today. In the oceans, the land, and the atmosphere.

Barbarian to Yorzhik:
Once you do, we can get a minimum number for the heat transferred to the atmosphere.

You've already found out.

If he agrees, we'll take a look.

 

[Stripe]

I have spent a while trying to see where the article you link to supports your contention that water is very compressible at high temperatures. Would you please indicate specifically what paragraph, section, or statement in your article says such?

Actually, I think I've gotten that wrong. At pressure the water was not very compressed (1.14g/cm³ at pressure as opposed to 1g/cm³ at atmospheric pressure).

But something else is going on... Lemme see if I can figure it out. :think:

It's your data, Stipe. And it shows you that liquid water is highly incompressible.

You're right.

Probably because water becomes a gas at 100 degrees C.

It doesn't have to.

For someone who's taking it as a literal history, some of the water was on Earth. And some of it was above a solid domed sky (the firmament), where the sun and stars were located.

For someone who realizes that it's an allegory the water was where it is today. In the oceans, the land, and the atmosphere.

And what does the bible say?

 

[some other dude]

Water CompressibilityWater is a liquid that usually is regarded as being incompressible, which is a good approximation at most ordinary pressures. However, at the high pressures needed to drive an abrasive jet, water compresses up to 11 percent. Figure 1shows the percentage compression of water at pressures up to 100,000 PSI.

How many PSI under the weight of the ocean and the rock? :think:


One mile depth of salt water would be 2289psi.

One mile depth of granite would be about 6300 psi.

 

[Stripe]

How many PSI under the weight of the ocean and the rock? :think: One mile depth of salt water would be 2289psi. One mile depth of granite would be about 6300 psi.

It is compressible, but not very compressible.

I think where I went wrong is in trying to reverse the dramatic expansion that occurs when pressure drops on very hot water. But that would be to vapour and of course vapour is very compressible...

Anyway .. :think:

 

[some other dude]

15% at 100K psi is significant.

I wonder what happpens to its other properties at that pressure?

 

[Stripe]

15% at 100K psi is significant.

Not compared to other materials. And not compared to the expansion that goes on upon release.

I wonder what happpens to its other properties at that pressure?

Now that is significant!

 

[some other dude]

Did you check out that site? It was a high-pressure water jet cutting tech place.

I've used that equipment. It will cut steel, stone, glass - just about anything you want. Cools as it cuts. Leaves a nice clean edge too.


Here's a clip, cutting square holes in 1.5 inch titanium:

...

 

[Stripe]

Now imagine a couple of oceans worth escaping from beneath the Earth's crust. :noway:

 

[some other dude]

Isn't it interesting that there's no steam, and the titanium doesn't melt? :think:

 

[The Barbarian]

For metals, there's an additive...

I was kind of wondering how the scientists at Harvard would have missed that. Turns out, they didn't. BTW, the effect depends on water being essentially incompressible.

So why doesn't a tiny stream of water under such pressure turn to steam? Why can you reach into a 300 degree oven, and remove a sheet of aluminum foil with your fingers and not get burned?

Answer that, and then you'll know.

 

[Jukia]

15% at 100K psi is significant.

I wonder what happpens to its other properties at that pressure?

What pressure does Walt Brown suggest?