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Real Science Friday: Baraminologist Dr. Roger Sanders on RSF
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I gather that's Sot's reply to my questions about his water jet cutter. If you can figure out why a water stream with abrasive in it can cut metal, or why a very thin water stream can be rapidly accelerated without being turned to steam, let us know.
In both cases, there are obvious answers. I left you enough hints; can you figure it out?
In both cases, there are obvious answers. I left you enough hints; can you figure it out?
A literalist would say that some water was on the Earth, and some of it above the solid dome of the firmament, above the Sun and the stars.
Of course, the sky is not really a solid dome, nor could there have been a huge canopy of water above the stars (people back then thought the stars were no farther away than the sun, and that both were very close to the Earth).
What do you think, Stipe?
Of course, the sky is not really a solid dome, nor could there have been a huge canopy of water above the stars (people back then thought the stars were no farther away than the sun, and that both were very close to the Earth).
What do you think, Stipe?
I think you're doing what you do best - dodging. You care only to discuss what a "literalist" would say. Why not read the verse and tell us what the bible says?
Where does the bible say the water was in Genesis 1:2?
I've asked you several times, but you've declined to say. Was the water really above the Sun and the stars, as a literalist reading of Genesis has it?
Yes or no.
I also told you the orthodox take on it, wherein the solid dome of the sky is just figurative. One more time; stop dodging and tell us which you think it is.
Is it a literal solid dome holding the Sun and stars, with water above them, or is it not?
I did, and you told me the firmament was the Earth's crust.
Now, will you stop dodging the question, and answer it?
Water story: Start of day one- water and rest of elements all mixed together in the space of what would later become earth but slightly larger. Day two- a firmament is established in the middle of this water. It has no water. Day three- the waters below the firmament are gathered together and dry land appears. This is where the water is mostly undgerground. Day four- moon and planets are placed in the firmament while water is still beyond them. Water above firmament collapses during flood and gives us comets and the icy planetoids beyond pluto and drenches planets like mars for a season.
No.
The water in Genesis 1:2 is the "deep". Which is upon the surface of the Earth.
The firmament created in v6-8 is within that water.
The fountains of the deep are formed when the firmament ruptured.
:nono:
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Stipe's re-write of Genesis:
Barbarian asks, regarding the firmament:
Is it a literal solid dome holding the Sun and stars, with water above them, or is it not?
(Stipe does a "no-no' smiley)
Well, let's see what Genesis says...
Genesis 1:6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8And God called the firmament Heaven.
I don't think that Heaven is the same thing as the Earth's crust.
Wouldn't God know that much?
Barbarian asks, regarding the firmament:
Is it a literal solid dome holding the Sun and stars, with water above them, or is it not?
(Stipe does a "no-no' smiley)
Well, let's see what Genesis says...
Genesis 1:6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8And God called the firmament Heaven.
I don't think that Heaven is the same thing as the Earth's crust.
Wouldn't God know that much?
What you think is of no consequence. Where was the water that the firmament was created within? What does Genesis 1:2 say?
"Heaven" has a small range of meanings. Perhaps you should go look them up. Perhaps you should find out how many heavens there are. Perhaps you should consider possibilities instead of sticking blindly to your current position. :thumb:
Barbarian chuckles:
I don't think that Heaven is the same thing as the Earth's crust.
What God says is of considerable importance.
Literally, above the solid dome of the sky. Just above the Sun and the stars. could you explain how that could be, Stipe? You've dodged the question three times now. Do you think you can bring yourself to answer the question?
Genesis 1:[16] And God made two great lights: a greater light to rule the day; and a lesser light to rule the night: and the stars. [17] And he set them in the firmament of heaven to shine upon the earth.
God says the "firmament" is the Heaven with the Sun and moon and stars in it.
See above. It's right there in Genesis for you.
God tells us which one He means. It's the one where He put the Sun and Moon and stars.
I'm looking at His word, and I don't see any escape clauses for you, Stipe.
I don't think that Heaven is the same thing as the Earth's crust.
What God says is of considerable importance.
Literally, above the solid dome of the sky. Just above the Sun and the stars. could you explain how that could be, Stipe? You've dodged the question three times now. Do you think you can bring yourself to answer the question?
Genesis 1:[16] And God made two great lights: a greater light to rule the day; and a lesser light to rule the night: and the stars. [17] And he set them in the firmament of heaven to shine upon the earth.
God says the "firmament" is the Heaven with the Sun and moon and stars in it.
See above. It's right there in Genesis for you.
God tells us which one He means. It's the one where He put the Sun and Moon and stars.
I'm looking at His word, and I don't see any escape clauses for you, Stipe.
And the things that I say, which you ignore, are important to this conversation. I've had the same conversation with others and it takes them but a few posts to understand.
What solid dome of the sky? Read the second verse of Genesis 1 and tell us where the water is.
Different firmament. This one is qualified as the firmament "of the heavens". As opposed to the firmament in vv6-8 which is the one called Heaven. "Of the heavens". "Called Heaven". There's good reason to believe there is a deliberate distinction. Not least being it frees us of having to read a cartoon cosmology into the bible.
He says He put the sun and moon in the firmament of the heaven. He most likely used that phrase to distinguish this firmament from the one earlier in the chapter.
Stipe, the "firmament" is not the crust of the Earth. It's the sky.
Barbarian observes:
Literally, above the solid dome of the sky. Just above the Sun and the stars.
The one in Genesis. "Firmament" is the translation of "Raqua", something beaten out, like a brass bowl.
Doesn't say where they were. One could infer that some water was on Earth.
Show us the one called "crust of the Earth."
Show us where it says "the firmament" applies to the Earth.
Show us where it says there is more than one firmament. And show us that it's the crust of the Earth.
C'mon Stipe. Do you think people don't notice?
Which firmament are you referring to?
OK.
Is there anything wrong with making that assumption?
Here is a list of verses that associate the deep with water on the Earth and the flood:
Genesis 1:2, Nehemiah 9:11, Job 28:14, 38:8-30, 41:31-2, Psalm 33:7, Psalm 69:1-15, 104:6, Ezekiel 26:19, Jonah 2:3-5, 2 Corinthians 11:25.
Here is a list of verses that associate the deep with the Earth and from below:
Genesis 7:11, 8:2, 49:25, Deuteronomy 33:13, Isaiah 51:10, Isaiah 63:13.
Here is a list of verses that associate the deep with Heaven:
Psalm 135:6, Proverbs 8:27-8.
Many of those verses can be in more than one list.
Can you tell us what is wrong with assuming that the firmament was created within the water and that the water in question was solely on the Earth?
Show us how it cannot. If the waters were upon the Earth and the firmament was created within the water then the firmament is upon the Earth. Thus it is reasonable to test the idea that the firmament called Heaven was the crust of the Earth that was broken up by fountains and shaken during the flood.
Show us how there has to be only one firmament. There is more than one heaven. :idunno:
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Barbarian observes:
Stipe, the "firmament" is not the crust of the Earth. It's the sky.
The one in Genesis. The one God calls the Heavens. The only one He mentions.
It's not an assumption. Genesis says there's water above and below the firmament of Heaven. How do we get water above the moon and stars, Stipe? How do you convert that to a literal history?
Here is a list of verses ...
Show us any that you find convincing evidence for the idea that God was mistaken to call the firmament "heaven."
For one thing, there's a bit of a problem assuming the Sun, Moon, and stars were on the Earth.
Show us where it says "the firmament" applies to the Earth.
It has the Sun, Moon and stars in it.
See above. That Sun, Moon, and stars problem. Sorry.
Sorry, not Biblical. Making up new stories to get your old one to work isn't a very convincing argument.
Barbarian suggets:
Show us where it says there is more than one firmament.
Don't have to. You have to show us that the Sun, Moon, and stars were once on Earth, if you want your story to be believed.
But God only mentions one firmament.
Stipe, the "firmament" is not the crust of the Earth. It's the sky.
The one in Genesis. The one God calls the Heavens. The only one He mentions.
It's not an assumption. Genesis says there's water above and below the firmament of Heaven. How do we get water above the moon and stars, Stipe? How do you convert that to a literal history?
Here is a list of verses ...
Show us any that you find convincing evidence for the idea that God was mistaken to call the firmament "heaven."
For one thing, there's a bit of a problem assuming the Sun, Moon, and stars were on the Earth.
Show us where it says "the firmament" applies to the Earth.
It has the Sun, Moon and stars in it.
See above. That Sun, Moon, and stars problem. Sorry.
Sorry, not Biblical. Making up new stories to get your old one to work isn't a very convincing argument.
Barbarian suggets:
Show us where it says there is more than one firmament.
Don't have to. You have to show us that the Sun, Moon, and stars were once on Earth, if you want your story to be believed.
But God only mentions one firmament.
Barbarian - you need to show a little humility and grace. You need to acknowledge that this man disagrees with your assessment and look at the details from his point of view in order to deconstruct them.
It might be you that is mistaken, but how would we ever know, right?
Perhaps if you just read this through and notice the possible distinction between the two places where firmament is used:
Genesis 1 - The History of Creation
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” 7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13 So the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” 7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13 So the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
So, Barbarian - the challenge is clear. Show us why it is unreasonable to believe that the firmament in vv 6-8 is distinct from the firmament of the heavens in vv9-14. Explain to us why the author felt the need to use distinctive phrasing. And you need to do that without simply asserting the truth of your idea.
It's called a discussion. There are two parties involved. :thumb:
Barbarian observes: Stipe, the "firmament" is not the crust of the Earth. It's the sky. The one in Genesis. The one God calls the Heavens. The only one He mentions. It's not an assumption. Genesis says there's water above and below the firmament of Heaven. How do we get water above the moon and stars, Stipe? How do you convert that to a literal history?
That's why we're having this discussion. I'm pointing out some facts that demolish your contention that the "firmament" is the crust of the Earth. It's rather presumptious of you to assert that my disagreement with you is a sign that I lack humility.
(Stipe says he has a list of verses)
Barbarian suggests:
Show us any that you find convincing evidence for the idea that God was mistaken to call the firmament "heaven."
That will take something more than "a lot of verses support my claim."
You could start with some evidence.
Genesis 1 - The History of Creation
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” 7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13 So the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
They are both heavens. In fact, there's no reason at all to think that they aren't the same thing; the Bible certainly doesn't say they are not. The sun and the stars are in them. This seems pretty solid to me. The crust of the Earth isn't heaven. So we know it's not the first one. And the location of the sun and moon sure isn't the crust of the Earth. So you're still not where you want to go.
One says "the firmament is heaven." The other says "the firmament of the heavens." Same thing, slightly different phrasing. Show me in the Hebrew that they are different.
Will be, when you get around to giving us some evidence. Given your initial claim, this new approach of "well, you see, there were really two firmaments.." looks like a quick ad hoc attempt to cover up your lack of Biblical understanding.
That's why we're having this discussion. I'm pointing out some facts that demolish your contention that the "firmament" is the crust of the Earth. It's rather presumptious of you to assert that my disagreement with you is a sign that I lack humility.
(Stipe says he has a list of verses)
Barbarian suggests:
Show us any that you find convincing evidence for the idea that God was mistaken to call the firmament "heaven."
That will take something more than "a lot of verses support my claim."
You could start with some evidence.
Genesis 1 - The History of Creation
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” 7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13 So the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
They are both heavens. In fact, there's no reason at all to think that they aren't the same thing; the Bible certainly doesn't say they are not. The sun and the stars are in them. This seems pretty solid to me. The crust of the Earth isn't heaven. So we know it's not the first one. And the location of the sun and moon sure isn't the crust of the Earth. So you're still not where you want to go.
One says "the firmament is heaven." The other says "the firmament of the heavens." Same thing, slightly different phrasing. Show me in the Hebrew that they are different.
Will be, when you get around to giving us some evidence. Given your initial claim, this new approach of "well, you see, there were really two firmaments.." looks like a quick ad hoc attempt to cover up your lack of Biblical understanding.
No, it's not the same thing.
You can read Hebrew now? :noway:
I didn't think you had a firm grasp on English yet. :chuckle:
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