Real Science Friday: A Leading Telescope Designer in Studio

[voltaire]

There's plenty who love booze and drugs who aren't on the streets though Voltaire. I can't imagine anyone choosing to sleep rough where you're exposed to the elements and all manner of abuse for begging. Especially in Winter. There's all manner of reason why people end up in such situations from broken homes to mental illness, do you disagree? Of course I'd sooner have these people get out of their situations as I wouldn't wish what I've seen on anyone. I don't equate humanitarianism with Christianity either although they certainly share certain characteristics where it comes to ones fellow man.

There may be plenty of people who love booze and drugs who are not on the street, but plenty of people who are on the street cannot give up their booze and drugs. You may not be able to imagine anyone choosing to sleep rough on the street, but somewhere in their mind, they did just that. They added up the pros and cons of getting a job and giving up the booze and drugs and being responsible with their money and essentially giving up some of their freedom to do what they want with their time. Somewhere along the line, they decided that the "consequences" for doing the latter were just too burdesome and unsatisfying, and as awful as sleeping rough on the street was, it was much better than the alternative.

Yes there are all manner of reasons why people end up in such situations, but you seem to think all of them are a result of circumstances beyond the control of the people involved. If you really wished these people could get out of these situations, you would not be so reluctant to believe they do not have sufficient motivation to do so in many more occasions than you currently think. You don't equate humanitarianism with christianity? You and many others on this board seem to. Truly helping people goes far beyond filling their bellies.

 

[Arthur Brain]

AB, why don't nicer-than-God people like you take them home and let them use your shower or bath. Then they would not be "smelly creatures."

Tom

Well it just goes to show what you actually read from other peoples responses then Tom, because if you had read properly you'd have seen that I have actually taken people in who had nowhere to live for a few days. I never regarded them as "smelly creatures" to start with Tom but rather human beings.

 

[Arthur Brain]

AB,

I know why you don't want to answer. For you, Jesus is not God. Therefore, you are not a Christian any more than a Mormon. If your jesus is not God, then that jesus is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The jesus you worship does not exist except in your mind.

Be it known to all on ToL that AB is not a Christian.

Tom

I know why you don't want to take these questions to the appropriate thread Tom. You simply don't want to answer for your own uncharitable attitude towards your fellow man and merely wish to deflect and obfuscate. I'll answer any questions you have there once you have the fortitude to answer for yourself here.

You can presume all you wish. On both counts already when you've tried you've been flat out wrong. I'm neither an atheist or a Mormon.

Be original for a change and answer questions instead of acting like a blowhard.

:e4e:

 

[Arthur Brain]

There may be plenty of people who love booze and drugs who are not on the street, but plenty of people who are on the street cannot give up their booze and drugs. You may not be able to imagine anyone choosing to sleep rough on the street, but somewhere in their mind, they did just that. They added up the pros and cons of getting a job and giving up the booze and drugs and being responsible with their money and essentially giving up some of their freedom to do what they want with their time. Somewhere along the line, they decided that the "consequences" for doing the latter were just too burdesome and unsatisfying, and as awful as sleeping rough on the street was, it was much better than the alternative.

Yes there are all manner of reasons why people end up in such situations, but you seem to think all of them are a result of circumstances beyond the control of the people involved. If you really wished these people could get out of these situations, you would not be so reluctant to believe they do not have sufficient motivation to do so in many more occasions than you currently think. You don't equate humanitarianism with christianity? You and many others on this board seem to. Truly helping people goes far beyond filling their bellies.

What I object to is the notion that people end up on the streets in the main due to 'choice' or 'willingly' remain there due to not wanting to give up drink/drugs. Do you honestly think that you're in a position to judge why people 'choose' to sleep rough in the winter risking hypothermia etc? Yes, I imagine many who are on the streets drink a lot, probably as a means of "escape" from their situation. If you're willing to concede that there's several reasons why people end up on the streets then why do you judge them so harshly because they're still there? What do you expect a young person to do when they come from a broken home or those who have suffered abuse who end up in such a position? Or the mentally ill? Or those who become unhinged due to their circumstance?

Painting people as 'adding up pros and cons' and 'deciding' to remain on the streets shows complete ignorance IMO and having talked to some people in such a predicament they'd likely agree dude.

As before I don't equate humanitarianism with Christianity but certainly principles are shared. And as with my above to Tom, a meal doesn't solve the problem, but neither does sitting in judgment on folk .
Did Lazarus deserve to be treat in the manner he was, or to even be in the position to ask for crumbs off the rich mans table? If you answer 'no' then why are you doing so to others?

:e4e:

 

[voltaire]

What I object to is the notion that people end up on the streets in the main due to 'choice' or 'willingly' remain there due to not wanting to give up drink/drugs.

Yes, the vast majority of people end up on the streets due to poor choices they make in life. Do you deny it?

Do you honestly think that you're in a position to judge why people 'choose' to sleep rough in the winter risking hypothermia etc?

I cannot judge why all do, but common sense and stories that I have heard tell me that many people do weigh the pros and cons and consequently remain as they are. There is no judging involved. It is simply a reality of what many of them have admitted to doing.

Yes, I imagine many who are on the streets drink a lot, probably as a means of "escape" from their situation. If you're willing to concede that there's several reasons why people end up on the streets then why do you judge them so harshly because they're still there?

Why are you sure it is a means of escape and not true addiction? Why do many refuse food and only take money? That isn't an indication the drinking is a matter of escape. Who is judging them? I am simply stating facts. If they are out there for reasons other than those beyond their control, why deny it?

What do you expect a young person to do when they come from a broken home or those who have suffered abuse who end up in such a position? Or the mentally ill? Or those who become unhinged due to their circumstance?

Except for the mentally ill and the unhinged, I expect them to find help out of their situation. I would expect them to go to the united way or find a relative or go to the church or go to a government agency.

Painting people as 'adding up pros and cons' and 'deciding' to remain on the streets shows complete ignorance IMO

So you are absolutely sure that never happens or at least hardly ever?

and having talked to some people in such a predicament they'd likely agree dude.

Could it be that you have only run into people who do not fit the bill that I have described? Could it be that you have only run into people that have been homeless for less than a year?

As before I don't equate humanitarianism with Christianity but certainly principles are shared. And as with my above to Tom, a meal doesn't solve the problem, but neither does sitting in judgment on folk .

Who is judging? Describing reality is not making a judgement.

Did Lazarus deserve to be treat in the manner he was, or to even be in the position to ask for crumbs off the rich mans table? If you answer 'no' then why are you doing so to others?

No he didn't. I am not doing so to others. Why do you accuse me of such a vile sin? The people I am talking about are not like lazarus at all. Lazarus was in his condition for no fault of his own. The people I am talking about are.

:e4e:

 

[Arthur Brain]

Originally Posted by voltaire
Yes, the vast majority of people end up on the streets due to poor choices they make in life. Do you deny it?

Yes, I do. It's far too complicated an issue simply to put down to 'poor choice' aka whats been described already via broken homes etc. Even if people do end up on the streets due to poor choice do they deserve to be condemned and denied charity because of it?

I cannot judge why all do, but common sense and stories that I have heard tell me that many people do weigh the pros and cons and consequently remain as they are. There is no judging involved. It is simply a reality of what many of them have admitted to doing.

What are you basing this on exactly? Common sense tells me that having a warm place to live in the Winter is preferable to sleeping rough in a cardboard box or some such. How many in your experience have 'admitted' to doing as you describe?

Why are you sure it is a means of escape and not true addiction? Why do many refuse food and only take money? That isn't an indication the drinking is a matter of escape. Who is judging them? I am simply stating facts. If they are out there for reasons other than those beyond their control, why deny it?

I'm not making out that everyone on the streets isn't already there for a prior addiction that led to such. The idea that the majority are is 'not stating facts' and neither is the venture that most refuse food instead of money. What are you basing that on? There's no basis to assert that most of those on the streets are there when they couldn't be is there? Else provide?

Except for the mentally ill and the unhinged, I expect them to find help out of their situation. I would expect them to go to the united way or find a relative or go to the church or go to a government agency.

Volt, many of these people don't have a family relative to go to! Some folk are out on the streets because of family....what's the church going to do apart from hopefully give them some food? Put them up in shelter? Offer them a job? The government doesn't care as people are pretty much just statistics anyway and many find themselves in the loop. If you don't have an address then you're not entitled to benefits etc....

So you are absolutely sure that never happens or at least hardly ever?

Some people may like living on the streets dude. Try asking one the next time it's sub zero temperatures as to whether the majority 'choose' it....

Could it be that you have only run into people who do not fit the bill that I have described? Could it be that you have only run into people that have been homeless for less than a year?

When I lived in Nottingham it was one of the 'homeless capitals' of Britain. And unless seeing people in a state of misery, desolation and resignation overall would count as what you equate to then no, not at all...and frankly I wouldn't like to be homeless for a week never mind 'less than a year'....

Who is judging? Describing reality is not making a judgement.

You are when you make such arguments as the above. What you call 'reality' is merely subjective opinion. Have you ever been without shelter? Or had to live on the streets? How are you not judging people when you make the assertions as quoted?

No he didn't. I am not doing so to others. Why do you accuse me of such a vile sin? The people I am talking about are not like lazarus at all. Lazarus was in his condition for no fault of his own. The people I am talking about are.

There's no info given as to why Lazarus was in that position Volt. Possibly because it's not important in terms of altruism towards another. Do you consider that? If someone in such dire need of help appeared on your path then would you aid them or judge?

:think:

 

[TeeJay]

=Arthur Brain;2782617]Well it just goes to show what you actually read from other peoples responses then Tom, because if you had read properly you'd have seen that I have actually taken people in who had nowhere to live for a few days. I never regarded them as "smelly creatures" to start with Tom but rather human beings.

AB,

As a former police officer in a big city, I don't believe you. If you had taken those home that I encountered, you would not have a home and possibly not a life. I don't believe you.

In very cold weather, the police have to pick them up forceably and take them to shelters. The reason they do not want to go to shelters is that the shelters do not allow booze and drugs.

To put fear into their hearts, police officers donot threaten them with jail. They threaten them with the Salvation Army Shelter. In there, there is no alcohol.

So unless you promised them that you had beer in your fridge, you could not get them to come home with you.

Liar, liar, pants on fire.

Tom

 

[Arthur Brain]

AB,

As a former police officer in a big city, I don't believe you. If you had taken those home that I encountered, you would not have a home and possibly not a life. I don't believe you.

In very cold weather, the police have to pick them up forceably and take them to shelters. The reason they do not want to go to shelters is that the shelters do not allow booze and drugs.

To put fear into their hearts, police officers donot threaten them with jail. They threaten them with the Salvation Army Shelter. In there, there is no alcohol.

So unless you promised them that you had beer in your fridge, you could not get them to come home with you.

Liar, liar, pants on fire.

Tom

I could care less if you were head of the LAPD Tom. What I've told you is the truth and if you don't believe me then hey, up to you dude. I won't lose any sleep over your feeble accusations. It only goes to show how ignorant you are to think that all homeless people are and effectively act the same.

As it happens it's rare for me not to have beer in the place thanks.

 

[TeeJay]

=Arthur Brain;2783856]I could care less if you were head of the LAPD Tom. What I've told you is the truth and if you don't believe me then hey, up to you dude. I won't lose any sleep over your feeble accusations. It only goes to show how ignorant you are to think that all homeless people are and effectively act the same.

As it happens it's rare for me not to have beer in the place thanks.

AB,

I'm going to leave you alone for a while. But in parting, you are not a Christian. You do not accept Jesus Christ as God. It's not possible to deny His deity and be a Christian saved by His shed blood.

Barbarian is also unsaved. If you were a Christian, you would have helped me witness to him. Instead, you would rather be a friend of the world and be liked.

Tom

 

[Arthur Brain]

AB,

I'm going to leave you alone for a while. But in parting, you are not a Christian. You do not accept Jesus Christ as God. It's not possible to deny His deity and be a Christian saved by His shed blood.

Barbarian is also unsaved. If you were a Christian, you would have helped me witness to him. Instead, you would rather be a friend of the world and be liked.

Tom

Fine. Go and take your sanctimonious presumptious judgmental drivel somewhere else. It's not like you were going to be honest enough to answer my questions anyway....

:wave2:

 

[TeeJay]

=Arthur Brain;2784141]Fine. Go and take your sanctimonious presumptious judgmental drivel somewhere else. It's not like you were going to be honest enough to answer my questions anyway....

:wave2:

AB,

You proved my point. Without God, truth can only be reached by accident.

You can't accuse me of being "judgmental" without you yourself being judgmental. You are judging me for judging. In doing so, you are, by definition, a hpocrite.

Tom

 

[Arthur Brain]

AB,

You proved my point. Without God, truth can only be reached by accident.

You can't accuse me of being "judgmental" without you yourself being judgmental. You are judging me for judging. In doing so, you are, by definition, a hpocrite.

Tom

I don't deny I'm making judgments Tom. I said as much earlier in the thread. The difference is I'm making them based on experience and what's being said as oppose to ignorant and arrogant presumptions. You erroneously presumed I was an atheist, then bizarrely enough a Mormon, and following that you then accuse me of lying. You've also failed to address a whole gamut of stuff here by deflecting the issue onto my own beliefs despite there being a thread in place for just that....

lain:

 

[some other dude]

Barb,

I really don't understand what you're getting at? Give me a plain question, and I will give you a plain answer. How am I denying the Trinity?

Tom

Like throwing holy water on a vampire Tom, asking barbie to be direct and honest.

See how he scurries away in fear?