Questions for Arians

[Lon]

The question is a very easy one for someone whose mind has not been baffled with false ideas.

Incorrect. I asked a question that "Arians/Unitarians" have not adequately contemplated, on TOL, to date.

Not only is God a spirit but God also has a spirit. His spirit can indwell many people at once. In fact, the Scripture says that if God were to withdrawal His spirit all life would immediately cease to exist.

Thank you for treating the material. I realize you are carrying baggage from the other thread, but I'm trying hard not to do that. You'd be wise to do the same. This is a serious thread that requires biblical answers without "How could you not know that?" It amounts to you trying to debate in the flesh and win an argument by worldly means. I may call such out, because it clutters up the thread and is really frivolous and unnecessary. Only God's Word counts here.
Trinitarian language would say this too, but I'd thought you were Arian/Unitarian?
Can you explain why this isn't Trinitarian? Perhaps a question: Is His Spirit God(Himself)?

When the Comforter was sent to the disciples by Jesus after receiving Him from the Father the disciples (many) were enabled to do unnatural things. The Comforter is able to indwell many at once.

Agreed, but I was asking how a man could do so. What is happening? Just the Spirit and not the Lord Jesus Christ? You inadvertently are 'becoming a Trinitarian' with cognitive dissonance with your answers. Are you sure you are an Arian/Unitarian?

The same Holy Spirit that indwelt the disciples is the same Holy Spirit that indwelt the man Jesus without measure. The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of the man Jesus Christ was given to his disciples and is therefore referred to as a measure of the gift of Christ given to each of the disciples.

See, you are using Trinitarian analogy and somewhat mixing it with Arian concepts: The Spirit of Christ is God, but you almost make a modal comment when you say the Father and the Son are the same Spirit. The triune formula is a skeletal frame that we hang the scriptures upon. It recognizes that the Spirit, Father, and Son are all separate and that often as you suggest here, there equatedness: thus "tri- -une" or "tri- -unity" - I prefer tri-une for the lesser confusion, I don't believe in three Gods.

So, the way in which a man can indwell many people at once is by the man having the Spirit of the Father and who can give of that Spirit to whomever believes in him. The Scripture calls it the measure of the gift of Christ. The gift was received by Jesus from the Father and Jesus passed it along to his disciples.

This again isn't quite explaining how Christ indwells when you've said Father and Son is the same spirit. It becomes modal at that point so I'm not sure you are Arian/Unitarian completely. -Lon

 

[Gary K]

You say I'm inadequate. Stop that nonsense. Lowbrow 'you aren't smart' is a guy/gal stuck in a middle school hallway. It is frankly, beneath me. It should be below you as well. Instead of 'attacking' the question, answer it and deal honestly with it.

Instead, YOU think more deeply than ▲these▲ inane soundbytes: Demons. Further, could a demon indwell TWO people at the same time? How about millions (as is the case with the Lord Jesus Christ)?

YOU think more deeply about the scriptures. You will not be able to dismiss my questions with a wave. That is the work of a simpleton, not a scholar. 2 Timothy 2:15

Lon,

Your original question is what I answered:

How is it possible for a mere man or created being to indwell you as only God does?

That question, quite literally, ignores the fact that demons indwell humans. You asked how it is possible and I just gave you evidence that created beings, evil angels, dwell within and take over human beings. How they do it is pretty much the same way God dwells within us. We have to surrender our will to them just like we have to surrender our will to God.

By the way, I'm not a non-trinitarian. I don't believe in the trinity as expressed by the Catholic church, but I do believe in a triune God. Also, I was not putting you down. I simply answered the question exactly as it was written. And after your responses to non-trinitarians it seems to me that you have a major problem with them. Thus the comment on being eager to refute non-trinitarians.

However, if you want to be offended just go ahead and be offended. Not much I can do about that when I offered you my honest response you didn't like it but assumed I was just playing games with you.

 

[Lon]

That question, quite literally, ignores the fact that demons indwell humans.

:nono: "as" Demons possess one at a time (except when its a herd of pigs).
The question again: How is it possible for a mere man or created being to indwell you as only God does?
You can certainly come up with simplistic answers that only address your concern BUT this thread isn't just about your concern: In a nutshell, it is asking for you to explain in detail your understanding of the being of Jesus Christ. Arians/Unitarians believe He is a created man. Modalists believe He is God with no separation (hence "modal" or "one). Arians/Unitarians have a 'little god' but such falls short of "God" by definition. "Little" is a tact on, poor descriptor because it is used in place of a genuine and full explanation of what an Arian/Unitarian believes.

Further, because many many Arian/Unitarians were first grabbed up by simpleton JW teaching, these people are 'indoctrinated' without really being able to think what their fed beliefs entail. It becomes meaningless pedantry, and I've seen it a lot in Arian/Unitarian company. My desire is to get you to actually 'think' and digest what you've been taught/given and honestly question its veracity. I have no trouble explaining in detail, the Triune doctrines. I can give an in depth answer to what scripture says and portrays. If an Arian/Unitarian can walk that mile, then it is all the better than mindless banter and repeated 'short-answer' sound bytes.

You asked how it is possible and I just gave you evidence that created beings, evil angels, dwell within and take over human beings.

How they do it is pretty much the same way God dwells within us. We have to surrender our will to them just like we have to surrender our will to God.

I've a few points of disagreement here. 1) Demons do not control or indwell the same way God does. Such would equate them to God like a Yin/Yang sort of scenario and that's problematic to biblical revelation/instruction, at least for us Trinitarians (perhaps too, a few modalists and Unitarians as well). 2) Free will isn't quite the qualifier. A will 'freed' doesn't recognize one of two Masters Matthew 6:24. It may not be pertinent to you, but I want to ensure you know where and how I disagree. As far as my scriptural understanding, we are already enslaved one way or the other and that, for me, answers 'why don't we see demon possessions today?'

By the way, I'm not a non-trinitarian. I don't believe in the trinity as expressed by the Catholic church, but I do believe in a triune God. Also, I was not putting you down. I simply answered the question exactly as it was written. And after your responses to non-trinitarians it seems to me that you have a major problem with them. Thus the comment on being eager to refute non-trinitarians

.
I believe they don't know their own doctrine well-enough, nor really the triune doctrine. I don't have a huge problem with the RC doctrine, but I prefer the term triune. We do have some who have more of a tri-theistic grasp in our churches so I'm sympathetic on that point.

However, if you want to be offended just go ahead and be offended. Not much I can do about that when I offered you my honest response you didn't like it but assumed I was just playing games with you.

No, I think you really need to own your "inadequate, eager, and forgetful" comments. It was a slice and you fully well know it, else I'm not very good at reading between the lines. When they are this stark, I don't think you can 'feign' an innocent tenor. Intentional? Likely not, I can give you that much, but there seems to always be posturing in these threads. I'd forgive for it, I'm just asking, here and there, that it be left at the door. There is a bit of an underhanded backhand in even this redress post of your's. You could certaintly accuse me of the same, I suppose, but it is my thread and I have an idea, at least, of the direction I'd like it to go. A person who starts a thread is usually given a bit of leeway as to how he/she desires to steer it and that gives them a pedagical platform of sorts. It is a curtesy, rather than a demand, especially if the one is a student trying to discover something, yet we try, in courtesy, to not just come in swinging into their threads. -Lon

 

[meshak]

Whether I 'seem' to know or not isn't important (it was a purposefully condescending comment on your part). Rather, to the second point, yes, I need to see those references and scriptures. The question again:

Ok, here you go:

John 5:19 (New International Version)
19Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing,
because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

How can a man indwell you or I? How can He indwell both you and I at the same time? The question is harder than it looks and I believe will require you to study in order to be able to answer it. I'm fairly sure you nor "Vail" actually read those scriptures carefully. Please do so in honesty and integrity or also avoid this thread. They are important to the discussion. I've NO desire just to banter with ill-mannered ill-humored Unit-arians. If you want to participate, do so with honesty and integrity using the scriptures. -Lon

I am sarcastic about trinity believers because you guys all skip simple and clear Jesus and others God and Jesus' identities.


Christianity is all about the Gospel, and it is not complicated matter as trinity believers making it out to be.

Blessings.

 

[Lon]

How can a man indwell you or I? How can He indwell both you and I at the same time? The question is harder than it looks and I believe will require you to study in order to be able to answer it. I'm fairly sure you nor "Vail" actually read those scriptures carefully. Please do so in honesty and integrity or also avoid this thread. They are important to the discussion. I've NO desire just to banter with ill-mannered ill-humored Unit-arians. If you want to participate, do so with honesty and integrity using the scriptures. -Lon

Ok, here you go:
John 5:19 (New International Version)
19Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing,
because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

A few questions if I may: 1) Are you saying that the Son indwells us by the Father's power? 2) Is it redundant? If the Spirit that fills Christ is the same that fills us, how is this not God indwelling us, un-indifferentiated? How can there be a distinction in your mind, when there can be no distinction at that point? Do you get what I'm asking? Thank you for addressing the thread question.

I am sarcastic about trinity believers because you guys all skip simple and clear Jesus and others God and Jesus' identities.


Christianity is all about the Gospel, and it is not complicated matter as trinity believers making it out to be.

Blessings.

Patience is a virtue, even if you are exasperated by what you think is missed, simple or not; I'd like to encourage your ongoing patience. -Lon

 

[Jacob]

Whether I 'seem' to know or not isn't important (it was a purposefully condescending comment on your part). Rather, to the second point, yes, I need to see those references and scriptures. The question again:
How can a man indwell you or I? How can He indwell both you and I at the same time? The question is harder than it looks and I believe will require you to study in order to be able to answer it. I'm fairly sure you nor "Vail" actually read those scriptures carefully. Please do so in honesty and integrity or also avoid this thread. They are important to the discussion. I've NO desire just to banter with ill-mannered ill-humored Unit-arians. If you want to participate, do so with honesty and integrity using the scriptures. -Lon

You wouldn't say Jesus is Spirit now right?

 

[Jacob]

and He is the Son of God because He has been resurrected and glorified John 1:14, Romans 1:1-4.

This isn't talking about a new life after death is it? Didn't Jesus come back to life? Same person. Already the Son of God.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Lon,

Functionally, then, you are correct, you are not an Arian/Unitarian. You are not a Trinitarian but are likely Triune in much of your expressions.

I would endorse being a Unitarian, though I usually do not use this term as it has a wide range of different beliefs. I prefer to state that I do not believe in the pre-existence of Jesus before his conception and birth, and that He was born the Son of God because God the Father was his father in the conception / birth process and Mary was His mother. I strongly reject Trinitarianism and try to avoid any “Triune … expressions”.

Though your theology is different, your answer is close to the same as mine: "God indwells men." As a vessel, it'd be redundant to have Christ AND God, thus God indwells us. John 14:23
Point: There is equatedness in John 14, John 10:14

God the Father indwells men in and through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Yes, Jesus is the Good Shepherd, but God the Father, Yahweh is the Supreme Shepherd Psalm 23:1, and was Jesus’ Shepherd during his life and ministry.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Jacob,

This isn't talking about a new life after death is it? Didn't Jesus come back to life? Same person. Already the Son of God.

Yes, God the Father raised Jesus from the dead. In a sense this is a new birth and I suggest that this makes Jesus “The Son of God” in a fuller sense as he became a Glorified, Immortal Being, reflecting as a Son in a greater way God the Father.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Lon]

You wouldn't say Jesus is Spirit now right?

Nor are we. He was raised bodily, remember His scars and wounds? I'm not saying He is not Spirit as He is more than the sum Colossians 1:16-20

 

[Lon]

Greetings again Lon, I would endorse being a Unitarian, though I usually do not use this term as it has a wide range of different beliefs. I prefer to state that I do not believe in the pre-existence of Jesus before his conception and birth, and that He was born the Son of God because God the Father was his father in the conception / birth process and Mary was His mother. I strongly reject Trinitarianism and try to avoid any “Triune … expressions”.

I sometimes wonder if someone is actually rejecting Trinity doctrine, or tritheism. There is a difference and at times, Trinitarians inadvertently over argue tritheism (or are confused by it). For the most part, the argument is always rather what to do with Isaiah 9:6, John 1:1, 14:10; 20:28 etc. We are tri- because we are not modalists, nor can we see Christ as a created being. John 1:3 Colossians 1:15-17 I know of no verse that has ever said Jesus is created anywhere is scripture. I believe it is an inference and a dangerous one because there is nothing but inference for such a HUGE assertion.

God the Father indwells men in and through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Yes, Jesus is the Good Shepherd, but God the Father, Yahweh is the Supreme Shepherd Psalm 23:1, and was Jesus’ Shepherd during his life and ministry.

Kind regards
Trevor

Trinitarians should be quick to agree wherever there is agreement and there is much here. However, in an effort to 'show the difference' a trinitarian may inadvertently go too far as to suggest tri-theism. Granted an Arian/Unitarian already embraces polytheism (they and possibly you might be shocked by such an assertion, but it is what it amounts to - because of this, it seems to me "Hear O Israel, the Lord Our God is One, only leaves room for Modalism or Triune tenor. I believe revelation removes Modal options, but at least they take the scriptural oneness of God seriously so I have much patience with them. Unlike the Modalist, I have no problem, as a Triune believer, saying yes to the above statements. They, in themselves, are not exclusive to Unit-arian expression (why I think sometimes Arians do not fully understand trinitarians, but think we are tri-theists).

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings way 2 go,

I know of no verse that has ever said Jesus is created anywhere is scripture. I believe it is an inference and a dangerous one because there is nothing but inference for such a HUGE assertion. ).

This is the only part of your answer that I am going to comment on at this stage. I do not use the word “created” for Jesus in his birth, as we do not usually say that each child that is born is created, even though they are called creatures. I believe that Jesus through Mary was a descendant of Adam, the Son of Man, “made a little lower than the angels”, but also God the Father was his father, and in another sense he is the firstborn of the new creation:
Psalm 8:4–6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
Psalm 89:26–27 (KJV): 26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. 27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Gary K]

:nono: "as" Demons possess one at a time (except when its a herd of pigs).
The question again: How is it possible for a mere man or created being to indwell you as only God does?
You can certainly come up with simplistic answers that only address your concern BUT this thread isn't just about your concern: In a nutshell, it is asking for you to explain in detail your understanding of the being of Jesus Christ. Arians/Unitarians believe He is a created man. Modalists believe He is God with no separation (hence "modal" or "one). Arians/Unitarians have a 'little god' but such falls short of "God" by definition. "Little" is a tact on, poor descriptor because it is used in place of a genuine and full explanation of what an Arian/Unitarian believes.

Further, because many many Arian/Unitarians were first grabbed up by simpleton JW teaching, these people are 'indoctrinated' without really being able to think what their fed beliefs entail. It becomes meaningless pedantry, and I've seen it a lot in Arian/Unitarian company. My desire is to get you to actually 'think' and digest what you've been taught/given and honestly question its veracity. I have no trouble explaining in detail, the Triune doctrines. I can give an in depth answer to what scripture says and portrays. If an Arian/Unitarian can walk that mile, then it is all the better than mindless banter and repeated 'short-answer' sound bytes.


I've a few points of disagreement here. 1) Demons do not control or indwell the same way God does. Such would equate them to God like a Yin/Yang sort of scenario and that's problematic to biblical revelation/instruction, at least for us Trinitarians (perhaps too, a few modalists and Unitarians as well). 2) Free will isn't quite the qualifier. A will 'freed' doesn't recognize one of two Masters Matthew 6:24. It may not be pertinent to you, but I want to ensure you know where and how I disagree. As far as my scriptural understanding, we are already enslaved one way or the other and that, for me, answers 'why don't we see demon possessions today?'


.
I believe they don't know their own doctrine well-enough, nor really the triune doctrine. I don't have a huge problem with the RC doctrine, but I prefer the term triune. We do have some who have more of a tri-theistic grasp in our churches so I'm sympathetic on that point.


No, I think you really need to own your "inadequate, eager, and forgetful" comments. It was a slice and you fully well know it, else I'm not very good at reading between the lines. When they are this stark, I don't think you can 'feign' an innocent tenor. Intentional? Likely not, I can give you that much, but there seems to always be posturing in these threads. I'd forgive for it, I'm just asking, here and there, that it be left at the door. There is a bit of an underhanded backhand in even this redress post of your's. You could certaintly accuse me of the same, I suppose, but it is my thread and I have an idea, at least, of the direction I'd like it to go. A person who starts a thread is usually given a bit of leeway as to how he/she desires to steer it and that gives them a pedagical platform of sorts. It is a curtesy, rather than a demand, especially if the one is a student trying to discover something, yet we try, in courtesy, to not just come in swinging into their threads. -Lon

If you had asked your question in the terms of the first sentence I bolded here I would have had a much clearer understanding of what you were asking. Instead you asked how a created being could indwell "you", meaning me, myself, as a single individual. That is how I read your question. I didn't see that as a request to explain my understanding of the Godhead. I saw that as a request to explain how devil possession works compared to how God "possesses" us when we surrender to Him. It sort of confused me when you were upset when non-trinitarian/non-triune believers responded. That is why I thought the question inadequate for it was confusing, to me.

I see the Godhead as three persons with one purpose, one character, one set of motives. Thus we always know exactly how they will react. How they will act. Jesus said, if you have seen me you have seen the Father. I take that to mean not that they are the same person but they are so alike in all three aspects I started this paragraph with that by knowing one of them we know all three of them. Jesus coming to earth was to show us who God is, what His love is like when seen in human form. That is a must for us because all we know is sin. It is our only reality. We are born into it. We live with it 24/7 and we needed some way to truly understand God's love for the devil has so misrepresented who God is that only the reality of who God is could allow us to see the disparity between who He is and who the devil has portrayed Him to be.

 

[meshak]

1) Are you saying that the Son indwells us by the Father's power?

If that's what Jesus asks His Father to do which Jesus Jesus says He sill do.

2) Is it redundant? If the Spirit that fills Christ is the same that fills us, how is this not God indwelling us, un-indifferentiated?

We still have to have the willingness to be obedient to Jesus becaseu He will look into our heart.

How can there be a distinction in your mind, when there can be no distinction at that point? Do you get what I'm asking? Thank you for addressing the thread question.

Your questions are still redundant. My comments are not twisted nor making simple complicated like most of you do. That's why you have so many man-made doctrines. That's the sure way to making simple complicated.

Patience is a virtue, even if you are exasperated by what you think is missed, simple or not; I'd like to encourage your ongoing patience. -Lon

I will keep on sticking to the simple and clear statements of the Scripture.

blessings.

 

[k0de]

How is it possible for a mere man or created being to indwell you as only God does?

I'm not Unitarian or Arian. But that is an excellent question. I don't know I can not tell.

Is that even possible?

 

[oatmeal]

Not looking to debate, just reasonable intelligent, well-thought-out answers.

Here is the first:

Unitarian/Arian "Christ is not God" question:

Read these verses carefully.

1 John 5:12 John 14:18-19 Ephesians 3:17-19 Colossians 1:27 Revelation 3:20

How is it possible for a mere man or created being to indwell you as only God does?

I have considered deeply if I should involve myself with your thread.

I find several objections to doing so from your opening post.

First, you imply that those of us who believe scripture are followers of a man, hence referring to those who believe in one God and one only begotten son of God as Arians.

That is an insult right from the start.

Of course, you might say that since I believe that Jesus the anointed is a man why would I object to following another man, namely, Arius?

Simply because Jesus the anointed is not "a man" but as I Timothy 2:5 points out, he is "the man" the man Christ Jesus.

Arius does not claim to have always done the Father's will, and speak only those things that the Father told him to speak, but Jesus the anointed one, always spoke what the Father told him to speak and always did what the Father told him to do.

Jesus as a prophet of God, not God himself, did what prophets do or are supposed to do, the speak what God wants them to speak. Jesus always spoke what God wanted him to say.

Secondly, the phrase "mere man" does not appear in scripture so your phrase needs to be explained with references why you would refer to the only begotten son of God as a "mere man"

Have you healed a man born blind? Jesus the anointed one did.

Have you walked on water? Jesus the anointed one did.

Have you ever healed a leper? the man Jesus Christ did.

Did you ever feed a couple of multitudes with only a few fishes and loaves? the man Jesus the anointed one did.

Jesus was not a "mere" man, but a powerful man who always did his Father's will.

Do you always do your Father's will?

I don't, do you?

Who says that " created being to indwell you as only God does?" Who says that Christ indwells in us in the same way as only God does? How is it that you have excluded the possibility that Christ indwells in us in a different way than God would?

Do you have any references to indicate how God dwells in us?

Do you have any scriptures that tell us that Christ dwells in us in the exact manner that God dwells in us?

For that matter, do you have any scripture that indicates that God dwells in us in the same or different manner that God dwells in Christ?

God was in Christ,2 Corinthians 5:19

The fullness of the Godhead bodily dwells in Christ, it does not say that God is Christ.

Ephesians 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Colossians 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

For that matter, you wish this thread to be without debate, yet in post #4 you begin debating.

"We don't. Rather, we read scripture and do not go beyond it. John 20:28 and John 1:1 are well beyond any Unitarian's ability to deny deity. No Arian will ever be able to adequately deal with these verses and it leaves them cutting them out/ignoring them in their bibles or trying to rewrite them.

I do not believe you adequately addressed the OP question, nor really touched it. It asked a specific question."

Evidently, you find it difficult to follow your own rules.

Since your opening post is riddled with problems, why would anyone want to enter into a debate with you?

 

[Right Divider]

I will keep on sticking to the simple and clear statements of the Scripture.

blessings.

If you were honest about that, you'd believe the trinity doctrine.

Joh 1:1-3 KJV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (2) The same was in the beginning with God. (3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.​

​

Joh 1:14 KJV And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.​

 

[Jacob]

Greetings Jacob, Yes, God the Father raised Jesus from the dead. In a sense this is a new birth and I suggest that this makes Jesus “The Son of God” in a fuller sense as he became a Glorified, Immortal Being, reflecting as a Son in a greater way God the Father.

Kind regards
Trevor

That is precisely what I am trying to say is not the case.

 

[Jacob]

Nor are we. He was raised bodily, remember His scars and wounds? I'm not saying He is not Spirit as He is more than the sum Colossians 1:16-20

Jesus is a man. Is His Spirit the Spirit of God?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Jacob,

That is precisely what I am trying to say is not the case.

I am not sure if you are denying the resurrection of Jesus and his change from a mortal body to an immortal body, or if you are saying that Jesus already was the Son of God during his ministry, and therefore the title continues on after he is resurrected and glorified. To me, resurrection is like a new birth, a new stage, a greater and fuller reflection of God, and as such in the fullest sense Jesus became The Son of God. He is now seated at the right hand of God Psalm 110:1.

Kind regards
Trevor